Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

[Lezah]

There is something sticking in mind about AS testimony I have not yet mentioned, I wanted to see what you guys think.

It was during cross, his attorney asked him what he was doing immediately before discovering RZ body. He masturbated, had a shower, ( but couldn’t remember in what order) and then his attorney kind of went back and asked about when he was in bed in the morning...

Web - “So you were in the guest house, Its early morning, were you just resting in bed?

AS - “ Yeah. Well, I was kind of killing time...”

Webb- “ so just in bed, kind of killing time, resting....

AS - “ Yeah, just waiting for the light to come”

So, he was Killing time....waiting for the light to come. Humm.

I thought about the times when I have personally used these phrases, and I wonder if you guys have any views on them being used right before the discovery of RZ body?

( FYI I’m paraphrazing the testimony from my recollection and my notes)

 

[Verboten]

I just finally finished watching Jonah's testimony and wow! I sure did like the ending. I think Mr. Greer did a wonderful job of keeping his questioning professional and also bringing back around exactly what this trial is about.

Thank you all for all you continue to do.
I think the defense has done as good of a job as anyone could. I just really wish we could have had Dina testify also so we could really see how different their versions of what happened are. I do not believe Jonah when he says the Dr. gave them bad news that evening. I never have. I feel terrible he lost his precious son <modsnip> Losing max does not excuse what I believe happened to Rebecca. I am still so hopeful for justice.

I just watched Greer's cross of JS, too. Yes, he's masterful in being professional/respectful yet focusing in on what's truly pertinent. He was able to: counter the knot tying and KT tape testimony--including showing Jonah both lied and exaggerated what the boat tie down entailed; demonstrate the qualities of Rebecca--which clearly show she's not a chaotic person; show inconsistencies between Dina's and Jonah's testimony. Such good stuff. Greer is truly a blessing for this family. I agree, losing Max does not justify what happened to Rebecca and we are all so hopeful for justice.

 

[Verboten]

There is something sticking in mind about AS testimony I have not yet mentioned, I wanted to see what you guys think.

It was during cross, his attorney asked him what he was doing immediately before discovering RZ body. He masturbated, had a shower, ( but couldn&#8217;t remember in what order) and then his attorney kind of went back and asked about when he was in bed in the morning...

Web - &#8220;So you were in the guest house, Its early morning, were you just resting in bed?

AS - &#8220; Yeah. Well, I was kind of killing time...&#8221;

Webb- &#8220; so just in bed, kind of killing time, resting....

AS - &#8220; Yeah, just waiting for the light to come&#8221;

So, he was Killing time....waiting for the light to come. Humm.

I thought about the times when I have personally used these phrases, and I wonder if you guys have any views on them being used right before the discovery of RZ body?

( FYI I&#8217;m paraphrazing the testimony from my recollection and my notes)

Lezah--Good point! I agree that this does indicate a sleepless, restless state where he's anticipatory of the next thing to come. Ok, maybe just waiting for "the light," or maybe waiting for what needed to be done once light comes. In conjunction with the "yesterday" on the 911, it is fitting with being up all night and anticipating "discovering" the body which can't occur until he can explain an innocent rationale for walking through the courtyard.

Disclaimer: This is not stating that it's remotely proof of murder (there is other proof for that), rather it's a piece of the puzzle that would fit very well with the inconsistent polygraph and 911 calls.

 

[Seattle1]

There is something sticking in mind about AS testimony I have not yet mentioned, I wanted to see what you guys think.

It was during cross, his attorney asked him what he was doing immediately before discovering RZ body. He masturbated, had a shower, ( but couldn&#8217;t remember in what order) and then his attorney kind of went back and asked about when he was in bed in the morning...

Web - &#8220;So you were in the guest house, Its early morning, were you just resting in bed?

AS - &#8220; Yeah. Well, I was kind of killing time...&#8221;

Webb- &#8220; so just in bed, kind of killing time, resting....

AS - &#8220; Yeah, just waiting for the light to come&#8221;

So, he was Killing time....waiting for the light to come. Humm.

I thought about the times when I have personally used these phrases, and I wonder if you guys have any views on them being used right before the discovery of RZ body?

( FYI I&#8217;m paraphrazing the testimony from my recollection and my notes)

Thanks Lezah - I certainly missed this part of AS testimony. Hmmm - more internal trains of thought?

I'm still trying to make sense over the fact that AS was allegedly the ONLY known person to see RZ hanging from the balcony, and could not offer a single detail of what he saw (i.e., facing direction, height from ground, etc). Today I did the hypothetical questioning of "what would you do" and most indicated they'd first cut victim down, remove the noose , and begin cpr.

 

[Tortoise]

Good try at minimizing. He was more than within a half-block of the crime. He was actually right there at the same house. He was the last person to see the victim alive and he was the person who found her dead. Take a listen to his polygraph and his 911 call -- he gives unrelated details to set his alibi up in the 911 call, claims to be cutting down a body & administering CPR (including chest compressions with her hands tied behind her back), but an hour later he claims he cut her down, THEN called 911. Even though he tries to give himself an out for his mistake with the, "if not before" comment, he'd already slipped up. You would know if, when you cut a hanging body down and jumped off a 3-legged table (body in hand!), you also were on the phone with 911 or not. These two links are really all any one needs to be certain of Adam's involvement:

Adam Polygraph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppRDQ7yfymg&feature=youtu.be

911 call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyGs0d2d-ck&feature=youtu.be

Anybody else, LE would have HUNTED incessantly based on those major inconsistencies until they had enough evidence to put him UNDER the jail. But, him? They never did another lie detector test, even though his was inconclusive; and they left copious amounts of evidence uncollected and/or untested (including women's underwear in the trash can of the guesthouse where he was staying. Why? Cuz Jonah said don't worry your pretty little Law Enforcement heads about those li'l undies in there). Add in all the other coincidences, like the knots used to tie the body being the same ones he studied for that all-important maritime testing, which his team claims makes him such an accomplished man. This guy is all over this crime.

Yes, not only CPR with her arms behind her back.

Her body that was already stiff with rigor mortis, and still hog-tied. For Rebecca's feet and hands to be still in the same position as when she was hog-tied (locked same distance apart as the rope) it means she was left hog-tied until rigor fixed them. The helicopter photos prove it. Unless the killer stuck around for all those hours and only cut the hogtie apart after rigor had set in, I'd say Adam must have literally bumped into him as he was leaving the scene... I'm surprised he never shouted out hey, why d'you only cut that rope, cut her down man! And the killer might have said here, use my knife, you can stand on that three legged table but I'm not chancing it!

 

[Seattle1]

Thanks Lezah - I certainly missed this part of AS testimony. Hmmm - more internal trains of thought?

I'm still trying to make sense over the fact that AS was allegedly the ONLY known person to see RZ hanging from the balcony, and could not offer a single detail of what he saw (i.e., facing direction, height from ground, etc). Today I did the hypothetical questioning of "what would you do" and most indicated they'd first cut victim down, remove the noose , and begin cpr.

I just re-listened to AS testimony and picked up on a couple more things: AS was greatly impacted by the stress he heard in his Father's voice alerting him about Max's accident; AS offered more on his Tug Pilot qualifications to enable piloting near NY to be closer to his Dad; and finally how AS could not marry his girl friend out of respect for his parents. After what sounded like present time testimony (except for Max death of course), I was surprised to learn that JS and AS parents are both deceased! There goes the can't get married excuse...

 

[Tortoise]

I think I've worked out a scenario that fits.

After the assault in the bedroom which involved putting the plastic bag over Rebecca's head and Rebecca being restrained somehow (possibly in the chair) but not with the red rope, she escaped. Because she was naked she didn't exit to the street, she ran into the courtyard, screaming. That's when her feet got dirty.
Adam caught her by bashing her over the head. He tied the blue top around her mouth, stuffing knotted sleeves in her mouth to stop her screaming. Perhaps he took her with him to the garage or left her unconscious on the grass, or even partially strangled her into unconsciousness there and then.
He got the rope from the garage, gloves and 2 knives from the kitchen and cut the rope into two.
He used one half of the rope to hogtie her and left her there while he went up to the bedroom to tie the other half of the rope to the bed leg and throw the loose end which he had formed into a noose, over the balcony railing.
While he was gone Rebecca came to outside and fumbled around with her hands behind her back to feel for one of the knives he'd left there, grasping it by the blade to try and cut the rope.
He returned and sexually assaulted her with the other knife handle.
He carried her over to the noose now hanging over the railing but it was slightly too high for him to manage to get her head through.
He left her there again while he went back to the bedroom to pick up the bed post and move it further towards the balcony (explaining no drag marks in the carpet), lowering the noose.
He listened to Jonah's voicemail and deleted it.
He went back outside, hung her and left her hanging and hogtied.
He waited in the guesthouse until morning and decided to try and stage it as a suicide.
He took the 2 knives back up to the bedroom, the blood having now dried on the handle so not leaving a stain on the carpet. He wiped down the door, door knobs and paint tube with a drier sheet.
He took a 3rd knife from the kitchen and outside cut the hogtie and cut her down.

All IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

There is something sticking in mind about AS testimony I have not yet mentioned, I wanted to see what you guys think.

It was during cross, his attorney asked him what he was doing immediately before discovering RZ body. He masturbated, had a shower, ( but couldn&#8217;t remember in what order) and then his attorney kind of went back and asked about when he was in bed in the morning...

Web - &#8220;So you were in the guest house, Its early morning, were you just resting in bed?

AS - &#8220; Yeah. Well, I was kind of killing time...&#8221;

Webb- &#8220; so just in bed, kind of killing time, resting....

AS - &#8220; Yeah, just waiting for the light to come&#8221;

So, he was Killing time....waiting for the light to come. Humm.

I thought about the times when I have personally used these phrases, and I wonder if you guys have any views on them being used right before the discovery of RZ body?

( FYI I&#8217;m paraphrazing the testimony from my recollection and my notes)

That doesn't fit with what he said to the Fire/EMS operator - "I just woke up"

 

[*Lash*]

It is the insurance company that bears the financial burden of defending the WDS and it is not unusual that they take the lead in deciding the financial settlement when a defendant is released from the suit. Greer and/or the family has every right to recover their attorneys' fees as per the settlement agreement and it's not unusual at all. In fact, I would hope that they did. BTW, does anyone have a link or is this just hearsay?

It is brought up in the press conference.
Timestamp 23:50

https://youtu.be/Rgn2pkIj98U?t=23m50s

Nina’s ins settlement mentioned here too:

Snip-

Greer and Romano's lawyer, Darin Wessel, said in the press release that the decision to pay the family was made by Romano's insurance carrier, and that the women never wanted to settle the case. Greer said neither Romano nor Dina Shacknai had offered payment themselves to settle.

www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2017/04/20/coronado-deaths-jonah-shacknai-son-max-sisters-cleared-rebecca-zahau/100719380/

 

[elfie]

Finally a ray of light and the hope of justice for Rebecca. I have much catching up to do. Thank you to everyone for all of the great observations and input, and links so far (still on trial thread 1). Some pretty startling new information brought forth by Greer.

 

[Mica]

That doesn't fit with what he said to the Fire/EMS operator - "I just woke up"

Another inconsistency. Good point.

 

[*Lash*]

I believe that the medical examiner is testifying on Monday... What questions do you guys feel should be top of Mr Greer&#8217;s list?

Yes, ME Dr. Lucas is testifying Monday!

Someone obviously was not doing their job to protect and preserve the evidence, imo. With that said:

&#8226;You were the ME on call. Would you be the person responsible for leaving a body in the hot sun exposed for the world to see for over 12 hours?
&#8226;Would you change anything about the first 12 hours if you could?
&#8226;How would you feel if this had happened to one of your loved ones?
&#8226;Should someone have lost their job because they did not follow protocol?
&#8226;Who's responsibility was it to put up a tent?
&#8226;Wasn&#8217;t crucial evidence lost in the 12 hours?
&#8226;Was someone held responsible for losing crucial evidence?

Geez, that&#8217;s before any autopsy questions.

 

[stmarysmead]

Yes, ME Dr. Lucas is testifying Monday!

Someone obviously was not doing their job to protect and preserve the evidence, imo. With that said:

&#8226;You were the ME on call. Would you be the person responsible for leaving a body in the hot sun exposed for the world to see for over 12 hours?
&#8226;Would you change anything about the first 12 hours if you could?
&#8226;How would you feel if this had happened to one of your loved ones?
&#8226;Should someone have lost their job because they did not follow protocol?
&#8226;Who's responsibility was it to put up a tent?
&#8226;Wasn&#8217;t crucial evidence lost in the 12 hours?
&#8226;Was someone held responsible for losing crucial evidence?

Geez, that&#8217;s before any autopsy questions.

Excellent questions. I do find this treatment of Rebecca to be outrageous.

Was there some reason that the Zahau family did not sue the respective legal entities over this and the incomplete investigation? If they lose this trial, is that still an option?

 

[*Lash*]

There is something sticking in mind about AS testimony I have not yet mentioned, I wanted to see what you guys think.

It was during cross, his attorney asked him what he was doing immediately before discovering RZ body. He masturbated, had a shower, ( but couldn’t remember in what order) and then his attorney kind of went back and asked about when he was in bed in the morning...

Web - “So you were in the guest house, Its early morning, were you just resting in bed?

AS - “ Yeah. Well, I was kind of killing time...”

Webb- “ so just in bed, kind of killing time, resting....

AS - “ Yeah, just waiting for the light to come”

So, he was Killing time....waiting for the light to come. Humm.

I thought about the times when I have personally used these phrases, and I wonder if you guys have any views on them being used right before the discovery of RZ body?

( FYI I’m paraphrazing the testimony from my recollection and my notes)

BBM-

The “killing time” comment is unusual to me in the aspect that I think Adam would have been coached NOT to answer in that way. Since he did, it makes me think there was a strategy or purpose to use that particular wording.

What light was Adam talking about - Light from the sunrise or a light in the house?

 

[stmarysmead]

My first response to Jonah&#8217;s testimony was emotional, relating to him as a grieving father and boyfriend. But n retrospect, I don&#8217;t think his testimony was particularly helpful to his brother.

Mr Greer has stipulated that JS was already in a relationship with his current wife while living with RZ. This admission, to me, showed quite a bit of integrity, because it is not helpful to the plaintiffs case...being a possible reason for despair and suicide.

Because of that, I believe Mr Greer has told the truth.

I therefore expected the defense to use this. I expected JS, in trying to save his brother, would admit this betrayal of Rebecca, even though it would sully his own reputation.

After all, his &#8220;Baby Brother&#8221; has everything at stake here.

But despite the fact that it might help his brother&#8217;s case, the defense did not bring this up and JS was allowed to paint a picture of himself as a loving, caring boyfriend...with the only problem in the relationship being a teenage daughter.

Were JS and the attorneys primarily interested in protecting his image? Or am I missing some key strategy here?

 

[Pi2016]

Hey Pi2016,
I thought it was odd as well.
It's also odd that he didn't stay with Max or perhaps the doctors didn't allow it.
Wonder if he ever made a donation to R.McD for their support?

In testimony at the civil trial, Jonah testified that he spent the night and "Dina was there too"..... does anyone know if Dina also stayed at the RMcD House, or did she go home at some point?

 

[*Lash*]

I just re-listened to AS testimony and picked up on a couple more things: AS was greatly impacted by the stress he heard in his Father's voice alerting him about Max's accident; AS offered more on his Tug Pilot qualifications to enable piloting near NY to be closer to his Dad; and finally how AS could not marry his girl friend out of respect for his parents. After what sounded like present time testimony (except for Max death of course), I was surprised to learn that JS and AS parents are both deceased! There goes the can't get married excuse...

BBM-

Good point!

Their father passed away Sept 2016, Mom in 1999, easy to find online.

Interesting, Jonah was &#8220;deeply superstitious&#8221;?

BBM Snip-

Shacknai told the paper he developed his sense of social responsibility while growing up in Manhattan. &#8220;There was a strong Jewish tradition in my household,&#8221; said Shacknai, who told the paper his parents were &#8220;early Zionist settlers in Palestine.&#8221;

The CEO said he &#8220;certainly wasn&#8217;t born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I had two kind parents and, while we certainly weren&#8217;t wealthy, I was given every advantage educationally and culturally, and strong values to contribute and succeed.&#8221; Shacknai also admitted to being &#8220;deeply superstitious&#8221;.

https://forward.com/schmooze/139997/jewish-mogul-s-girlfriend-found-dead-in-grisly-s/

 

[Pi2016]

My first response to Jonah&#8217;s testimony was emotional, relating to him as a grieving father and boyfriend. But n retrospect, I don&#8217;t think his testimony was particularly helpful to his brother.

Mr Greer has stipulated that JS was already in a relationship with his current wife while living with RZ. This admission, to me, showed quite a bit of integrity, because it is not helpful to the plaintiffs case...being a possible reason for despair and suicide.

Because of that, I believe Mr Greer has told the truth.

I therefore expected the defense to use this. I expected JS, in trying to save his brother, would admit this betrayal of Rebecca, even though it would sully his own reputation.

After all, his &#8220;Baby Brother&#8221; has everything at stake here.

But despite the fact that it might help his brother&#8217;s case, the defense did not bring this up and JS was allowed to paint a picture of himself as a loving, caring boyfriend...with the only problem in the relationship being a teenage daughter.

Were JS and the attorneys primarily interested in protecting his image? Or am I missing some key strategy here?

Good observation.

Who do you think is paying the nine high end lawyers? I'm sure preserving Jonah's "integrity" was a stipulation, even if unspoken.

Even if Jonah was already cheating on Rebecca, the suicide trigger was allegedly the situation with Max, a dying 6 year old boy. Plus if Jonah had cheated there is no indication Rebecca knew about it. In fact I'm curious to know how Greer found out and came to his conclusion?

 

[minorone]

Good observation.

Who do you think is paying the nine high end lawyers? I'm sure preserving Jonah's "integrity" was a stipulation, even if unspoken.

Even if Jonah was already cheating on Rebecca, the suicide trigger was allegedly the situation with Max, a dying 6 year old boy. Plus if Jonah had cheated there is no indication Rebecca knew about it. In fact I'm curious to know how Greer found out and came to his conclusion?

I recall KG saying he had all the phone records. JS undoubtedly would have communicated with her by phone and email.

 

[*Lash*]

9/2/2011 San Diego Press Conference:

SGT. NEMETH:

Rebecca received news regarding Max's grave condition at about 10 min. to one in the morning. She made a decision to take her own life. She located a rope, possibly from the garage. We found a shelf in the garage that had boating items. The rope was a type you would use to tow a person on an inner tube, or something of that manner, behind a boat. There was a void on that shelf -- it was a full shelf until a certain point where there was a void about that wide that was empty. The homeowner wasn't sure if there was a rope in that location but it is possible that's where she found the rope.

https://vimeo.com/28771010

Notes from JS&#8217;s testimony:

Around the 23 min mark:

2010 and 2011, Jonah owned 2 boats. Rebecca and JS boated at least once a week or more. The two of them together and when the kids were there. The kids would always go when they were there. They used a tow line to go tubing with the older kids. Allegedly the same rope used in connection with Rebecca&#8217;s death. Where did the red rope go when you were not using it? Both the tube and the tow rope were kept in the garage in kind of a boating area.

www.cbs8.com/story/37785775/mansion-death-lawsuit-jonah-shacknai-takes-the-stand

Discrepancy? Maybe nothing? The homeowner, JS, was NOT sure there was a rope in that location? He definitely seemed sure in his testimony this week. The kids ALWAYS went boating when they were there. There was kind of a boating area in the garage for the red rope and tube. The family arrived in CA in May.

This is the big press conference SDSO gave in September with all their conclusions. Not something from the beginning of the investigation. This was in the BIG press conference, JS was not sure if there WAS a rope in that location?