Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion

[Betty P]

Why would they test the rope where Adam admitted to touching it?

What did you think of the part where they danced around the questions about evidence on the knives, now that we know so much about the location and positioning of RZ's fingerprints on the large knife blade?

 

[Seattle1]

I seemed to remember Pfingst showing up at Mansion early when RZ body present however Greer reports it was evening??

Confirming the reality that RZ was in-fact left outside in the yard from morning to evening when Pfingst photographed arriving scene.

"Wednesday evening, former District Attorney and current defense attorney Paul Pfingst showed up at the crime scene. Pfingst confirmed to News 8 that he had been hired to represent someone connected with this case, although he would not specify who his client is. "I'm not Jonah's lawyer. I've never spoke with him. As far as I know he's not a suspect of any type," Pfingst said in a statement.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...was-Pfingst-representing-at-the-mansion/page5
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37893&d=1381172416

 

[*Lash*]

Rebecca Zahau Trial : Week 1 | San Diego Union-Tribune

The San Diego Union-Tribune

[video=YouTube;vr9gYRCsCsY]https://youtu.be/vr9gYRCsCsY[/video]

 

[vlpate]

What did you think of the part where they danced around the questions about evidence on the knives, now that we know so much about the location and positioning of RZ's fingerprints on the large knife blade?

I don't see how it is significant. She was holding the knife by the handle, her thumbprint was on the blade. When cutting a piece of rope you would fold the rope, turn the knife blade upward and place it between the folded rope and saw it. This demonstration proves she was holding the knife exactly the way I describe.
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...n-Coronado-Mansion-Mysterious-Death-475576263

 

[nanwv]

I agree with you Seattle. I see a picture in my head of Pfingst in the doorway with officers first thing in the morning. Now we find out its evening. Between SDSO, the media, defendants peeps - gaslighting at its finest. If this is ever over, we could use a therapy group to detox. Alcohol included.

 

[Hraefn]

I don't see how it is significant. She was holding the knife by the handle, her thumbprint was on the blade. When cutting a piece of rope you would fold the rope, turn the knife blade upward and place it between the folded rope and saw it. This demonstration proves she was holding the knife exactly the way I describe.
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...n-Coronado-Mansion-Mysterious-Death-475576263

Link didn't work for me

 

[vlpate]

Link didn't work for me

Try "NBC 7 + Forensic Print Expert Testifies in Coronado Mansion Mysterious Death"

 

[vlpate]

If this is repeated I apologize, I tried editing and it disappeared

Hogtied" theory questions
1. How would Rebecca stand on the balcony hogtied? Her footprints and an LE footprint were the only ones found.
2. How would AS hurl a dead body (although ME stated she was alive before going over balcony), over that railing without ever stepping onto the patio?
3. How would RZ have abrasions on the backs of her legs if they were bent in a hogtied position?
4. After he threw her up and over the balcony, did he just go to sleep for a few hours while her hogtied/naked body hang there?

I don't see how it is feasible, given the forensic evidence, that she was hogtied and dead before being thrown from an appreciative distance, over the balcony. JMO

 

[Lilibet]

If this is repeated I apologize, I tried editing and it disappeared

Hogtied" theory questions
1. How would Rebecca stand on the balcony hogtied? Her footprints and an LE footprint were the only ones found.
2. How would AS hurl a dead body (although ME stated she was alive before going over balcony), over that railing without ever stepping onto the patio?
3. How would RZ have abrasions on the backs of her legs if they were bent in a hogtied position?
4. After he threw her up and over the balcony, did he just go to sleep for a few hours while her hogtied/naked body hang there?

I don't see how it is feasible, given the forensic evidence, that she was hogtied and dead before being thrown from an appreciative distance, over the balcony. JMO

BBM

I agree. Your points got me thinking and...

This wild thought just occurred to me, so if it’s been discussed and dismissed previously, let me know. Was she EVER hanging from the balcony and cut down? Or was RZ already on the lawn where AS says he put her? He is the only one who “saw” her hanging. Is the ME correct that she went over the balcony alive or could her death have happened elsewhere or on the ground? I haven’t read the autopsy report so this may be beyond the realm of possibility. It seems to explain a lot though. Or not. Feel free to shoot holes.

 

[Redhead sleuth]

Even after all this time it's not clear to me who was at the mansion when Max fell? Were Jonah's older kids there or just Rebecca, her sister and Max?

I know this question goes to Max's death but why did gym that was JS alibi close?

 

[MSCJgrad]

Supporting your comments here, wouldn't it also be determined in the autopsy whether or not she was currently on her period?

BBM. I'm not convinced there was menstrual blood per all the crack "death investigators" employed by SDSO. Since she was violated with a knife handle, I think it's just as likely the blood was the result of trauma.

 

[vlpate]

Supporting your comments here, wouldn't it also be determined in the autopsy whether or not she was currently on her period?

There was menstrual blood inside her vagina. There was no evidence of vaginal trauma. This is in the autopsy report.

 

[screecher]

There was menstrual blood inside her vagina. There was no evidence of vaginal trauma. This is in the autopsy report.

Except, there was menstrual blood on the handle of the knife.

Being raped is a trauma.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[K_Z]

I've always thought that Rebecca's autopsy report was rather "minimalist" in the internal organ and external genital exam (given the conditions of her death, and the blood evidence in the shower and on the carpet).

And, what the AR doc recorded as to the interior exam conditions of Rebecca's uterus is potentially not entirely consistent with a woman with an IUD who is on her actual menstrual period (not merely spotting from the IUD.)

He noted (with great detail) the benign incidental intrauterine polypoid leiomyoma, but also recorded that the interior uterine mucosa is "smooth and red purple", with a small amount of blood in the endometrial cavity and vagina.
Again, this just doesn't sound like ENOUGH for the presumed dripping of blood in the shower and on the floor/carpet, IMO. (Even in a very thin woman who may have had significant "thigh gap".)

He recorded nothing at all about her cervix in the external clear spec exam except to note that there is blood in the vagina and around the cervix. (Enough for dripping on the floor? Doesn't seem so by his notes.) He didn't note if there was a retrieval string in place in the cervix from the IUD during that spec exam-- didn't even MENTION the IUD until his comments in the internal organ exam. He didn't mention if the cervix was parous or nulliparous, or had any signs of trauma itself, apart from the vagina. He did not mention anything at all about a cul de sac inspection. Etc. Etc.

It is true that the endometrial mucosa appearance can be changed from the presence of an IUD. However, if Rebecca was in the active shedding portion of her menstrual cycle, the interior exam of the uterine endometrium should have appeared much different, I would think.

So now, knowing the steak knife has vaginal blood on the handle circumferentially, I'm questioning the GYN autopsy report findings all over again.

How do you reconcile "a small amount" of blood in the vaginal vault, sufficient to be transferred to external areas of the body, as well as droplets on the floor, shower, etc, with a smooth, shiny, purple red endometrium, and a very small amount of blood in the uterine cavity??

Mr. Greer should call an OB GYN and discuss this, because I think it could lend confidence to his argument about sexual penetration with the steak knife handle. There may have been trauma to the cervix or cul de sac that the autopsy doc didn't see in the spec exam, traction on the IUD string from penetration, etc. (JMO, of course-- a real OB-GYN expert should weigh in on this.) Perhaps there are pictures preserved from the autopsy?

Maybe it's too late for that line of thinking, though, now that the trial is in progress? IDK.

A few links for thought.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau, rebecca_report.pdf

http://gynaeonline.com/uterine_cycle.htm

 

[GarAndTeed]

Apologies for veering a bit off topic, but I notice AZlawyer is here. I have a question for her (or anyone else who may be able to help): are juries impressed, not impressed, or neutral in re: the number of attorneys a defendant has? I googled numerous questions on this subject, and was unable to find any information; my main concern/interest is whether Adam's 9 lawyers could have any effect on the jury.
Thanks so much for any replies!

 

[vlpate]

I've always thought that Rebecca's autopsy report was rather "minimalist" in the internal organ and external genital exam (given the conditions of her death, and the blood evidence in the shower and on the carpet).

And, what the AR doc recorded as to the interior exam conditions of Rebecca's uterus is potentially not entirely consistent with a woman with an IUD who is on her actual menstrual period (not merely spotting from the IUD.)

He noted (with great detail) the benign incidental intrauterine polypoid leiomyoma, but also recorded that the interior uterine mucosa is "smooth and red purple", with a small amount of blood in the endometrial cavity and vagina.
Again, this just doesn't sound like ENOUGH for the presumed dripping of blood in the shower and on the floor/carpet, IMO. (Even in a very thin woman who may have had significant "thigh gap".)

He recorded nothing at all about her cervix in the external clear spec exam except to note that there is blood in the vagina and around the cervix. (Enough for dripping on the floor? Doesn't seem so by his notes.) He didn't note if there was a retrieval string in place in the cervix from the IUD during that spec exam-- didn't even MENTION the IUD until his comments in the internal organ exam. He didn't mention if the cervix was parous or nulliparous, or had any signs of trauma itself, apart from the vagina. He did not mention anything at all about a cul de sac inspection. Etc. Etc.

It is true that the endometrial mucosa appearance can be changed from the presence of an IUD. However, if Rebecca was in the active shedding portion of her menstrual cycle, the interior exam of the uterine endometrium should have appeared much different, I would think.

So now, knowing the steak knife has vaginal blood on the handle circumferentially, I'm questioning the GYN autopsy report findings all over again.

How do you reconcile "a small amount" of blood in the vaginal vault, sufficient to be transferred to external areas of the body, as well as droplets on the floor, shower, etc, with a smooth, shiny, purple red endometrium, and a very small amount of blood in the uterine cavity??

Mr. Greer should call an OB GYN and discuss this, because I think it could lend confidence to his argument about sexual penetration with the steak knife handle. There may have been trauma to the cervix or cul de sac that the autopsy doc didn't see in the spec exam, traction on the IUD string from penetration, etc. (JMO, of course-- a real OB-GYN expert should weigh in on this.) Perhaps there are pictures preserved from the autopsy?

Maybe it's too late for that line of thinking, though, now that the trial is in progress? IDK.

A few links for thought.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau, rebecca_report.pdf

http://gynaeonline.com/uterine_cycle.htm

Once her heart stopped, so would her bleeding. With only a few drops of blood, on the floor, etc, she may have been at the end of it. The blood on her toes and feet are pretty easily explained...unless one is of the hogtie belief.

 

[K_Z]

Once her heart stopped, so would her bleeding. With only a few drops of blood, on the floor, etc, she may have been at the end of it. The blood on her toes and feet are pretty easily explained...unless one is of the hogtie belief.

BBM. This is not accurate.

Menstrual bleeding is not of an arterial or venous source, therefore the appearance of the endometrium shedding would not be altered after death/ heartbeat cessation. Menstrual bleeding is shedding of the buildup of the endometrium, and is largely tissue fragments, cellular debris, etc.

Menstrual bleeding is definitely not dependent on blood pressure or mean arterial pressure. However, post partum bleeding, such as in PP hemorrhage, IS dependant on MAP.

If she were on her menstrual period, in the shedding phase, the endometrium should reflect that at autopsy.

** My example above referencing post partum hemorrhage/ bleeding has nothing to do with Rebecca. It's merely an example of vaginal bleeding that is affected by changes in MAP (mean arterial pressure), as opposed to vaginal bleeding from menstruation. And what is described at autopsy, and in the blood droplet evidence, is far more than "spotting" from the IUD.

 

[cynic]

How would AS hurl a dead body (although ME stated she was alive before going over balcony), over that railing without ever stepping onto the patio?

This is from an old post of mine...
The balcony is very "shallow"
What I found to be helpful in considering what may have happened in this case is to “map” out the balcony on a floor in my home.
If you do, you will find how incredibly easy it is to be "invisible" on the balcony.
Take a tape measure and measure a 24” span. 24 inches is not much. (The span from my chest wall to my fingertips is 24".
Place one foot on one end and step across. Easy isn’t it?
All a person would have to do to create the illusion of never having been on the balcony is to keep one foot inside and put the other foot into one of the numerous gaps in the railing.
There is no need, whatsoever, to set foot on the floor of the balcony at all.

 

[K_Z]

There was menstrual blood inside her vagina. There was no evidence of vaginal trauma. This is in the autopsy report.

There was blood in the vagina. The widely held ASSUMPTION is that it was menstrual blood. Given what we know now, and the info in the AR, I don't think we can make the assumption that the blood was entirely menstrual blood. Maybe it was, maybe it was *some* menstrual blood combined with fresh bleeding from an object like the steak knife handle. We just don't know.

The steak knife handle evidence is NEW evidence (to us, anyway) in the past couple of weeks.

I wish it had been definitively tested for vaginal secretions and menstrual blood.

 

[MSCJgrad]

What I should have specified was, was it determined if her uterine wall was shedding it's lining, therefore producing mensural blood flow, or was there just blood in her vagina? I'm not a dr, but I would think that there is a difference. Any OB sleuths?

I've always thought that Rebecca's autopsy report was rather "minimalist" in the internal organ and external genital exam (given the conditions of her death, and the blood evidence in the shower and on the carpet).

And, what the AR doc recorded as to the interior exam conditions of Rebecca's uterus is potentially not entirely consistent with a woman with an IUD who is on her actual menstrual period (not merely spotting from the IUD.)

He noted (with great detail) the benign incidental intrauterine polypoid leiomyoma, but also recorded that the interior uterine mucosa is "smooth and red purple", with a small amount of blood in the endometrial cavity and vagina.
Again, this just doesn't sound like ENOUGH for the presumed dripping of blood in the shower and on the floor/carpet, IMO. (Even in a very thin woman who may have had significant "thigh gap".)

He recorded nothing at all about her cervix in the external clear spec exam except to note that there is blood in the vagina and around the cervix. (Enough for dripping on the floor? Doesn't seem so by his notes.) He didn't note if there was a retrieval string in place in the cervix from the IUD during that spec exam-- didn't even MENTION the IUD until his comments in the internal organ exam. He didn't mention if the cervix was parous or nulliparous, or had any signs of trauma itself, apart from the vagina. He did not mention anything at all about a cul de sac inspection. Etc. Etc.

It is true that the endometrial mucosa appearance can be changed from the presence of an IUD. However, if Rebecca was in the active shedding portion of her menstrual cycle, the interior exam of the uterine endometrium should have appeared much different, I would think.

So now, knowing the steak knife has vaginal blood on the handle circumferentially, I'm questioning the GYN autopsy report findings all over again.

How do you reconcile "a small amount" of blood in the vaginal vault, sufficient to be transferred to external areas of the body, as well as droplets on the floor, shower, etc, with a smooth, shiny, purple red endometrium, and a very small amount of blood in the uterine cavity??

Mr. Greer should call an OB GYN and discuss this, because I think it could lend confidence to his argument about sexual penetration with the steak knife handle. There may have been trauma to the cervix or cul de sac that the autopsy doc didn't see in the spec exam, traction on the IUD string from penetration, etc. (JMO, of course-- a real OB-GYN expert should weigh in on this.) Perhaps there are pictures preserved from the autopsy?

Maybe it's too late for that line of thinking, though, now that the trial is in progress? IDK.

A few links for thought.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/zahau, rebecca_report.pdf

http://gynaeonline.com/uterine_cycle.htm