4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #103

[Sachi]

Haven’t watched this yet:

I paraphrase- There is only one person to focus on , focus on the facts- the white car,-the surveillance videos , the k bar knife and the several witnesses who saw it in his possessions.

 

[SteveP]

So far, I haven't seen any details regarding whether the DNA under the nails came from actual bits of scraped skin like you would get if MM had scratched her assailant or if it was from swabs of the fingernails themselves without any bits of scraped off skin.

Swabbing and scraping are two different methods, as you seem to know, and what was done with MM's was described as swabbing, according to this .

In grand jury testimony, forensic scientist Jade Miller discussed the test results on a swab of fingernail clippings from Mogen's left hand, according to the motion.

Idaho college murders update: 3-person mixture of unknown DNA found under fingernails of Madison Mogen, filing shows | 6abc.com

A%20three-person%20mixture%20of%20unknown%20DNA%20was%20found%20under%20one%20of%20the%20Idaho%20college%20murders%20victim's%20fingernails%2C%20a%20new%20filing%20reveals.

6abc.com

 

[Ghostwheel]

Not under the victim's nails?

Actually, no, not in this case. You can get mixed DNA under your nails from various people all...day...long. At a bar, maybe more than 3. If MM fell into bed after being at the bar and food truck and (per the video) hugging people, unidentified mixed DNA under her fingernails was definitely not a trump to DNA on a knife sheath found in bed next to the murder victim. A knife sheath that was made to hold the knife that would be consistent with the wounds on the victims. The very fact that the sheath was there already elevates it's importance to the case.

Now, if she had just gotten out of the shower or bath, that could be a different story.

 

[SteveP]

According to what I have read, foreign DNA, like that transferred during scratching, can persist under fingernails for up to 48 hours, but its visibility and forensic significance tend to diminish rapidly, often within a few hours. This seems to suggest that the DNA under MM's nails could have been from almost anyone that she had interacted with in the couple days leading to her murder. JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I'm guessing the suggestion re DNA or skin cells under nails is that a person could be fighting for their life and grabbing out against their attacker.

However, it appears that if BK did this crime, he was clad in protective clothing head to foot and probably wearing really strong gloves whilst also wielding a huge knife. We don't know if he was even armed with a second weapon such as a gun. If a victim was trying to fend him off, they'd be grabbing out at the knife or defending themselves with their arms and maybe trying to kick out towards him, maybe picking up objects to use as defending weapons or to throw at him, maybe trying to run and flee. I don't see how any of that would get his DNA under their nails.

 

[MassGuy]

I'm guessing the suggestion re DNA or skin cells under nails is that a person could be fighting for their life and grabbing out against their attacker.

However, it appears that if BK did this crime, he was clad in protective clothing head to foot and probably wearing really strong gloves whilst also wielding a huge knife. We don't know if he was even armed with a second weapon such as a gun. If a victim was trying to fend him off, they'd be grabbing out at the knife or defending themselves with their arms and maybe trying to kick out towards him, maybe picking up objects to use as defending weapons or to throw at him, maybe trying to run and flee. I don't see how any of that would get his DNA under their nails.

More issues than that even. According to a recent filing, multiple victims were so intoxicated they were unable to offer up any resistance. Judging that MM and KG were apparently found in the same bed, it seems very likely that they were two of those victims (I believe Ethan was another other).

Maybe one of them got a hand up or something, but this was an ambush in the dark while they were likely sleeping. With a knife like this, I'd be shocked if either of them even had the chance to try and scratch him.

The clothing would likely prevent that anyway.

If there was skin under her nails, the defense isn't talking about probabilities and mixtures. They're talking about an unidentified male profile. They've made no such argument.

 

[Arkay]

I'm guessing the suggestion re DNA or skin cells under nails is that a person could be fighting for their life and grabbing out against their attacker.

However, it appears that if BK did this crime, he was clad in protective clothing head to foot and probably wearing really strong gloves whilst also wielding a huge knife. We don't know if he was even armed with a second weapon such as a gun. If a victim was trying to fend him off, they'd be grabbing out at the knife or defending themselves with their arms and maybe trying to kick out towards him, maybe picking up objects to use as defending weapons or to throw at him, maybe trying to run and flee. I don't see how any of that would get his DNA under their nails.

More issues than that even. According to a recent filing, multiple victims were so intoxicated they were unable to offer up any resistance. Judging that MM and KG were apparently found in the same bed, it seems very likely that they were two of those victims (I believe Ethan was another other).

Maybe one of them got a hand up or something, but this was an ambush in the dark while they were likely sleeping. With a knife like this, I'd be shocked if either of them even had the chance to try and scratch him.

The clothing would likely prevent that anyway.

If there was skin under her nails, the defense isn't talking about probabilities and mixtures. They're talking about an unidentified male profile. They've made no such argument.

I agree that given the circumstances, it would be very difficult for the victims to have fought back enough to scratch their attacker, particularly for M and K.

I count four victims, so 40 fingernails. IMO only X or E had even a hope of a chance to fight back at all. If there were even a scintilla of unidentified single source male DNA beneath any one of these 40 fingernails, the defense would be trumpeting that all over the place.

They aren’t though, because unidentified mixed DNA does not exonerate Bryan.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

jmo but I dont think scratching would actually be the only way to get dna under the nails. i really dont like going into details so a discretionary warning is attached to what im about to write. If an individual is prone on a bed with someone stabbing them thier is a chance the victim will just instinctively try to grab onto whatever is stabbing them most likely an arm. the shock of feeling the knife will make them do that almost unconsciously. just a natural inbuilt defence. so the victim grabs at whatever is causing the pain and will do so tightly and in doing so will get the dna under the nails. it makes sense to me that a victim will try to get whatever is causing the pain off of them and will attempt to do so by grabbing onto it and trying to push it away. sorry for the grim reading.

 

[Boxer]

Not under the victim's nails?

It’s inconclusive. Could be BK, could not be BK, so it’s a wash.

 

[stormymama]

Very good point.

I think about that Door Dash delivery person a lot. I presume it was a male,
owing to it being 4 in the morning.

From his perspective, he must have been terrified when he found out what happened.

One, because he may have come within minutes of being another victim; and two, because he would certainly seem initially to be a suspect.


JMO

I’ve thought a lot about the DD driver as well. I’ve also wondered if Xana thought BK was the DD guy.
Moo

 

[Warwick7]

Really?

Idaho college murders update: 3-person mixture of unknown DNA found under fingernails of Madison Mogen, filing shows | 6abc.com

A%20three-person%20mixture%20of%20unknown%20DNA%20was%20found%20under%20one%20of%20the%20Idaho%20college%20murders%20victim's%20fingernails%2C%20a%20new%20filing%20reveals.

6abc.com

I assume it doesn't stay under nails for too long, does it?

I have no clue what you are getting at.

 

[Warwick7]

Not under the victim's nails?

My previous comment to you was regarding a drop of blood on a railing in the bottom of the house. What is that have to do with the victim's fingernails?

 

[Warwick7]

Testing of the three-person mixture of DNA found under MM's fingernails came back inconclusive. Nowhere is it stated that any of the DNA was from a male. Defense attorney says that BK was excluded from being a contributor, but that would be known if none of the DNA was from a male. We can logically assume that two of the contributors were MM, herself, and likely KG, who was sharing a bed with her, and the third could have been anyone, female or possibly male as well, that she had made contact with over the previous hours. She and KG had spent about 3 hours at the corner bar, and we know she interacted with andhugged at least one male during the Grub Truck video. There is nothing pointing to the DNA being an unknown male, and it almost certainly is not male DNA, as the DEFENSE wants the results kept from the jury. Don't you think if there was a chance that they could show," hey, look at this male DNA under MM's fingernailst. There's your likely killer", they would definitely want it admitted into evidence. Just another big nothing, like almost everything else the defense has. JMO

BOOM!!! BAM!!!!

I can see it now at the Corner bar, "Man I've got an itch on my back. Can someone get it for me, I can't even reach it!" Madie says "Here I'll help." Next thing you know she has someone's skin under her nails.

It was inconclusive. It is a nothing burger.

Just like that "mysterious hair" intertwined in Abby William's fingers. The defense did a shock and awe with it. It was nothing. It belonged to Libby's sister, because Abby was wearing Libby sister's jacket. A big fat nothing.

 

[Warwick7]

and yet your link states that the defense wants the DNA from beneath Madison's fingernails to be EXCLUDED from trial. They are concerned that this DNA, which does not belong to BK, might confuse jurors who might mistakenly think it belongs to him.

One would think if the defense is looking to advance an alternate suspect theory they would be begging to make sure that DNA was IN and not OUT at trial, yes? As a way to suggest jurors should discount the sheath DNA because - look, there was other DNA on her person, beneath her nails.

And then the state would argue that that DNA mixture could have ended up there a million normal logical non murdery ways. But at least the jury would hear it and who knows maybe buy that it somehow relates to the murders.

But circling back to my point, the defense wants it out, so is it your theory that the mixed DNA from beneath Mogen's nails contains DNA from the "real" killer?


Idaho college murders update: 3-person mixture of unknown DNA found under fingernails of Madison Mogen, filing shows | 6abc.com

Exactly!! And besides KG's parents stated on 48 Hours Idaho murder that MM was on her tummy when she was killed. It looked like she didn't even wake up.

 

[Charlot123]

I have no clue what you are getting at.

I mentioned drop of blood as i didn't want to get at victims. But since the response was, we don't know when, which could be true, let us discuss the DNA under the fingernails of a victims. It is in MSM now and can be discussed.

It was under fingernails from day 1. But it was not BK’s DNA. For some reason, it never got to the MSM promptly. They never publicly announced whose DNA it was. Why? Maybe if they did, they’d find the witnesses of the person's whereabouts that night. I think that DNA under fingernails is closer to the killer than someone’s knife sheath that after all could have been placed intentionally.

The case is concerning.
<modsnip - another case, off topic>

And what if they really execute the innocent? Then it will eventually backfire so badly. IMHO.

 

[wendy44]

Warrants plural. Dec 23 2022

State
Search warrants for his AT&T records were executed on December 23, 2022. At this point, timing advance records were not available for Bryan Kohberger’s phone to cover the relevant time period - November 13, 2022.

On Dec 23, no TAR for Nov 13th per AJ.
IMO Nov 13 is most important but there are other times in the long warrant are also important.
JMO

State
Despite Defendant’s repeated assertions, the fact of the matter is that AT&T did not provide Timing Advance Records to law enforcement for Bryan Kohberger’s phone. The State is attaching Affidavits from AT&T verifying that the State did not receive timing advance records for Bryan Kohberger’s phone

The two Dec 23rd warrants.
The first warrant was for a short period.
The second warrant was for 6 months.
Mr Gordon mentions both in his affidavit.
SR mentions both.
AJ mentions both and Nov 13th.

There should at least be 7 days of requested TARS for BK just prior to Dec 23rd in the return of the long warrant, IF GLDC did this.
JMO

SR
In 2022 the FBI obtained AT&T Timing Advance records from another source, outside of GLDC.

What is the retention limit for this other FBI source?
The new GLDC retention is 13 months.
JMO


Exactly.
GLDC or other channel?
An affidavit from Mr. Jackson, the person who was actually involved the early ATRs in this case, would be appropriate.
JMO

SR
c.Law Enforcement also requested a tower dump. consisting of AT&T Timing Advance data. This request involved AT&T providing all of the connections between two specific cell sites in Moscow during a two-hour period. The data produced was AT&T Timing Advance data. In all. there were over 3800 AT&T mobile phones identified in the Timing Advance tower dump data

When LE asked for this tower dump including TAD (within 7 day retention period NOV), LE was able to get them, In 2022.
BKs phone was not in this two hour, two tower data dump.


State
These records were not routinely provided in response to legal demand prior to June 2023. After June 2023, AT&T started providing these records pursuant to legal demand
We know the State got records in 2022.
JMO

SR
a. Two of the victims had AT&T phones. Law Enforcement obtained AT&T Timing data on both of their phones.
b. Law Enforcement developed an early investigative lead in this case. That person had an AT&T phone at the time of the crime. Law Enforcement obtained his AT&T Timing Advance data.

Three 2023 Warrants with 2022 TAR requests.
Would like to see the return on these.

State of Idaho v. Bryan C. Kohberger

JMO

Hard to believe that the State/FBI did not obtain the ATRs of the person they arrested and charged.
Did the State already had BKs ATR reports from some other source?
Maybe it was a "group" decision?
JMO

Did the State or FBI request BKs ATR records in Pullman?
Near Blaine?
In Moscow on any tower?
At any time before or after his arrest?
After June 2023 when records were available to LE?
By any source?
JMO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/032625+Defendants+Notice+of+Filing+Affidavit+iso+Obj+to+the+States+MIL+RE+ATT+Timing+Advance+Records.pdf

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/032425-States+Reply+to+Defendants+Objection+to+the+States+MIL+RE+ATT+Timing+Advance+Records.pdf

All JMO

None of this addresses my original point, which is the fact that Sy Ray doesn't acknowledge the 7 day time frame that existed in 2022 at all. His affidavit and this notice was signed and filed by the defense after the state's reply to the objection. He spends the whole affidavit making the case that Timing Advance Records existed in 2022 and ignores the 7 day time frame for retention. Does the 7 days also apply to this alternate way of retrieving the records? He doesn't say.

In the affidavit he writes, "I am extremely familiar with the type of Timing Advance Records available from US cellular providers, their retention periods, and the legal process to obtain those records."

If he's extremely familiar with retention periods, why doesn't he address this? If he's extremely familiar with retention periods he should know about the 7 days. He spends the rest of the affidavit making the case that Timing Advance Records themselves existed in 2022. The only proof he provides that the prosecution is hiding records is the fact that there were other records produced (within the 7 day time frame) and he has "no reason to believe AT&T wouldn't respond to the request". There really is no proof of what he's saying.

As for other time periods--in the context of Sy Ray, they don't matter. Sy Ray is supposed to be BK's alibi witness. He's supposed to be able to put him south of Pullman and west of Moscow during the time of the murders.

Mr. Kohberger intends to offer testimony of Sy Ray, CSLI expert, (cell tower, cell phone and other radio frequency, curricula vitae is attached) to show that Bryan Kohberger’s mobile device was south of Pullman, Washington and west of Moscow, Idaho on November 13, 2022; that Bryan Kohberger’s mobile device did not travel east on the Moscow-Pullman Highway in the early morning hours of November 13th, and thus could not be the vehicle captured on video along the Moscow-Pullman highway near Floyd’s Cannabis shop.

Additional information as to Mr. Kohberger’s whereabouts as the early morning hours progressed, including additional analysis by Mr. Ray will be provided once the State provides discovery requested and now subject to an upcoming Motion to Compel . If not disclosed, Mr. Ray’s testimony will also reveal that critical exculpatory evidence, further corroborating Mr. Kohberger’s alibi, was either not preserved or has been withheld.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR29-22-2805/2024/041724-Notice-Defendants-Supplemental-Response-States-AD.pdf

We know there's evidence BK turned his phone off. Google tells me you can't get these Timing Advance Records if a phone is off because it's not sending signals to the towers. So it's not surprising that his number wouldn't show up in the 3800 from the tower dump. An absence of these records does not mean he wasn't there and it doesn't mean the records exist but are being hidden by the prosecution. Sy Ray needs to offer some actual evidence of their existence.
JMO

 

[Warwick7]

I’ve thought a lot about the DD driver as well. I’ve also wondered if Xana thought BK was the DD guy.
Moo

M00 That could be easy to tell. GH has mapped out every second where BK drove. Thank God for ring cameras! Anyway, Just by googling DD, they tell us they notifiy you when the food is delivered by a text. Now you have time stamps.

It was delivered at 3:59am and at 4:03 BK was till driving around being pegged by ring cameras.

 

[Warwick7]

I mentioned drop of blood as i didn't want to get at victims. But since the response was, we don't know when, which could be true, let us discuss the DNA under the fingernails of a victims. It is in MSM now and can be discussed.

It was under fingernails from day 1. But it was not BK’s DNA. For some reason, it never got to the MSM promptly. They never publicly announced whose DNA it was. Why? Maybe if they did, they’d find the witnesses of the person's whereabouts that night. I think that DNA under fingernails is closer to the killer than someone’s knife sheath that after all could have been placed intentionally.

The case is concerning.

We have a case where everyone seems to be sure who the culprit is. In Colorado. Yet the police hasn’t checked two DNAs in the car…and the whole case is out of the window. No one says, we don't know when the DNAs were there. Have DNA, should check i think. Here, the PD work is better than in many other cases...but not tight. One of two witnesses doesn’t even testify. How? There were two survivors in the house that night. How can the second one not give the deposition?

And what if they really execute the innocent? Then it will eventually backfire so badly. IMHO.

BBM
As I said earlier...
I can see it now at the Corner bar, "Man I've got an itch on my back. Can someone get it for me, I can't even reach it!" Madie says "Here I'll help." Next thing you know she has someone's skin under her nails.
It was inconclusive.
It is a nothing burger.

 

[Warwick7]

I haven't made time to watch it. I will later tonight.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1907163506333610033

 

[SteveP]

I mentioned drop of blood as i didn't want to get at victims. But since the response was, we don't know when, which could be true, let us discuss the DNA under the fingernails of a victims. It is in MSM now and can be discussed.

It was under fingernails from day 1. But it was not BK’s DNA. For some reason, it never got to the MSM promptly. They never publicly announced whose DNA it was. Why? Maybe if they did, they’d find the witnesses of the person's whereabouts that night. I think that DNA under fingernails is closer to the killer than someone’s knife sheath that after all could have been placed intentionally.

The case is concerning.

We have a case where everyone seems to be sure who the culprit is. In Colorado. Yet the police hasn’t checked two DNAs in the car…and the whole case is out of the window. No one says, we don't know when the DNAs were there. Have DNA, should check i think. Here, the PD work is better than in many other cases...but not tight. One of two witnesses doesn’t even testify. How? There were two survivors in the house that night. How can the second one not give the deposition?

And what if they really execute the innocent? Then it will eventually backfire so badly. IMHO.

The state is going to try the case in a court of law, not in the public. They never held press conferences to announce evidence, not sure why they should be expected to hold one to announce non-evidence. JMO