4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #103

[katydid23]

jmo but I dont think scratching would actually be the only way to get dna under the nails. i really dont like going into details so a discretionary warning is attached to what im about to write. If an individual is prone on a bed with someone stabbing them thier is a chance the victim will just instinctively try to grab onto whatever is stabbing them most likely an arm. the shock of feeling the knife will make them do that almost unconsciously. just a natural inbuilt defence. so the victim grabs at whatever is causing the pain and will do so tightly and in doing so will get the dna under the nails. it makes sense to me that a victim will try to get whatever is causing the pain off of them and will attempt to do so by grabbing onto it and trying to push it away. sorry for the grim reading.

True, they might instinctively grab for his arm. But I believe that every inch of his skin, except for the slit in his balaclava was protected by gloves, long sleeves, and coveralls. I don't think anyone touched his skin, imo.

 

[Sweeper2000]

True, they might instinctively grab for his arm. But I believe that every inch of his skin, except for the slit in his balaclava was protected by gloves, long sleeves, and coveralls. I don't think anyone touched his skin, imo.

the wrists are probably a good grabbing point. eaziest to latch onto much more so than any other point of the arm. probably more likely as well as closer to the knife and point of pain. maybe grab so tight as to go through the cloth as well?

 

[Sweeper2000]

True, they might instinctively grab for his arm. But I believe that every inch of his skin, except for the slit in his balaclava was protected by gloves, long sleeves, and coveralls. I don't think anyone touched his skin, imo.

not entirely sure of this dna under the nails talk though? whatzs its relevance? was it even bk's dna? someone said it was inconclusive? does that then mean it was a mix?

 

[SteveP]

I mentioned drop of blood as i didn't want to get at victims. But since the response was, we don't know when, which could be true, let us discuss the DNA under the fingernails of a victims. It is in MSM now and can be discussed.

It was under fingernails from day 1. But it was not BK’s DNA. For some reason, it never got to the MSM promptly. They never publicly announced whose DNA it was. Why? Maybe if they did, they’d find the witnesses of the person's whereabouts that night. I think that DNA under fingernails is closer to the killer than someone’s knife sheath that after all could have been placed intentionally.

The case is concerning.

We have a case where everyone seems to be sure who the culprit is. In Colorado. Yet the police hasn’t checked two DNAs in the car…and the whole case is out of the window. No one says, we don't know when the DNAs were there. Have DNA, should check i think. Here, the PD work is better than in many other cases...but not tight. One of two witnesses doesn’t even testify. How? There were two survivors in the house that night. How can the second one not give the deposition?

And what if they really execute the innocent? Then it will eventually backfire so badly. IMHO.

You ask why the state never publicly announced whose DNA was under MM's fingernails. Your own link stated that it was a three-person mixture of unknown DNA. The testing was inconclusive, which is not surprising at all, given that foreign DNA under fingernails begins to rapidly deteriorate after several hours. So, not sure how the state could have publicly announced who it belonged to. Furthermore, if they did know, why would they announce a name of someone not charged with or connected to the crime to the public? They have never implied or insinuated that DNA under MM's nails belong to BK. The defense was the one to announce that their findings excluded him. Again, this should surprise no one, as we all pretty much believe that he was covered head to toe, based on description of DM. Finally, the defense had access to the DNA and claimed their testing eliminated BK, so if it was that important to them, why don't they know whose it was? Same reason state doesn't.

As the defense is attempting to get the DNA under MM's fingernails evidence kept out of the trial, even though they claim it excludes BK, it will most likely never be mentioned in any context at all. JMO.

 

[fcavanaugh]

I mentioned drop of blood as i didn't want to get at victims. But since the response was, we don't know when, which could be true, let us discuss the DNA under the fingernails of a victims. It is in MSM now and can be discussed.

It was under fingernails from day 1. But it was not BK’s DNA. For some reason, it never got to the MSM promptly. They never publicly announced whose DNA it was. Why? Maybe if they did, they’d find the witnesses of the person's whereabouts that night. I think that DNA under fingernails is closer to the killer than someone’s knife sheath that after all could have been placed intentionally.

The case is concerning.

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And what if they really execute the innocent? Then it will eventually backfire so badly. IMHO.

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IMO most LE departments do not have the time nor enough resources to send every bit of random DNA found/collected around a crime scene for testing. They typically focus on DNA found in, on, or around the victim in close proximity to where the victim was killed as far as what they send for testing. Also, some random DNA found/collected in other places of a house, like different rooms or areas of the home from the where the crime/murder of victim(s) actually took place and/or from areas where the perp/murderer likely did not go, will receive less focus due to could’ve been left there anytime prior to the crime/murder and also, some is so degraded and/or found to be of such limited genetic material (imo has to do with having insufficient # of loci or alleles) that it does not even meet the criteria for testing which the prosecution in this case confirmed some of the DNA collected did not meet the criteria/eligibility for testing.
So it’s not always a case of, oh the keystone cops didn’t do due diligence rather, they are far from keystone cops who did do their due diligence and some of the DNA they collected was determined not to be eligible/suitable for testing.
Lastly, the DNA found under MM’s fingernail WAS sent for testing and results came back inconclusive.

IMHOO

ETA-punctuation

 

[gremlin444]

True, they might instinctively grab for his arm. But I believe that every inch of his skin, except for the slit in his balaclava was protected by gloves, long sleeves, and coveralls. I don't think anyone touched his skin, imo.

And not just thin coveralls--thick Dickies coveralls if the receipt and theories were correct. No one is getting their fingernails through that material, especially in an unfair fight.

IMHO, if the fingernail DNA was not a true scrap of someone's skin then it was just the random cells you get from everyday life. And I'll bet KG's DNA was one of the 3 profiles given that they had spent the entire evening together and were sharing a bed.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I think it is closer to the body than a knife sheath.

We leave stuff behind. My son once left an iPhone at Burger King. Imagine it being found somewhere, and no other DNA indicating his presence in that house.

How much I lost I can't tell you. I never return back to search unless it is really expensive.

Someone stole a portable safe from my other kid in U-district. Documents, watch. Some family heirloom. I assume they just sold it but who knows?

Moreover, we sell stuff, too on ebay. A collection of katanas.

So I can imagine how a man who likes knives can leave a sheath somewhere.

I think DNA from old cases, from body secretions, is telling. DNA on stuff nowadays might be questionable.

As usual, MOO. And, we may never get the details of what police really knows.

I think the key is, was someone killed with his iphone? Did someone get hit over the head with your other son's portable safe? If this happens, then they would likely try to find the owner of the item that looks like it might have killed someone. If there is no such item, then they would start looking for other things.

If someone were killed with your son's iphone, what are the chances that he would be doing 15 other things that exactly line up with the iphone assault? I would think very close to zero, but I don't know your son. If someone hit and killed another person by hitting them over the head with your other kid's portable safe, how likely is it he would be doing 15 other things that exactly line up with the portable safe assault?

When my friend was murdered, her boyfriend was the last to see her, but he had left for the night. His DNA was everywhere, but nothing else lined up with his killing her. It wasn't even possible. It's not DNA in the absence of anything else. It is DNA in the presence of everything else.

 

[mickey2942]

We really are guessing about a lot of missing information. We have not had definitive answers about defensive wounds, we have heard that the girls had defensive wounds and put up a fight. But we have not read information about the autopsies of the victims.

I will say, that if there was a blitz attack on me at 430 am, after a night of drinking and eating with friends, I would probably have been dead before I woke up.

 

[MassGuy]

I mentioned drop of blood as i didn't want to get at victims. But since the response was, we don't know when, which could be true, let us discuss the DNA under the fingernails of a victims. It is in MSM now and can be discussed.

It was under fingernails from day 1. But it was not BK’s DNA. For some reason, it never got to the MSM promptly. They never publicly announced whose DNA it was. Why? Maybe if they did, they’d find the witnesses of the person's whereabouts that night. I think that DNA under fingernails is closer to the killer than someone’s knife sheath that after all could have been placed intentionally.

The case is concerning.

We have a case where everyone seems to be sure who the culprit is. In Colorado. Yet the police hasn’t checked two DNAs in the car…and the whole case is out of the window. No one says, we don't know when the DNAs were there. Have DNA, should check i think. Here, the PD work is better than in many other cases...but not tight. One of two witnesses doesn’t even testify. How? There were two survivors in the house that night. How can the second one not give the deposition?

And what if they really execute the innocent? Then it will eventually backfire so badly. IMHO.

If that DNA was of an unidentified male, the defense would have been screaming about that instead of a blood drop on a railing in a part of the house the killer didn't go, and on some glove found outside. That alone tells us there is not some full unidentified male profile under her nails.

BF was not legally obligated to testify at the preliminary hearing. The defense claimed she had "exculpatory information," deposed her in Reno, and never mentioned this exculpatory information ever again (not even in their Frank's motion).

This DNA does not exist in a bubble; it must be corroborated, and it is. In spades.

Same type of white car they're looking for.
Goes for a drive at a time consistent with him being the killer.
Powers down his phone for the entire murder window (basically, his entire alibi is him doing the things he'd have to be doing if he was the killer).
Was near the crime scene on 23 separate occasions, between the hours of 10pm and 4am.
Returns to the vicinity of the crime scene the morning after the murders, and never returns to Moscow ever again (strange considering two dozen suspicious trips, and likely, many more that were not deemed suspicious).
Purchased the same knife and sheath, along with a sharpener 8 months prior to the murders. All of which are missing.

Judging by all the stuff the defense attempted to keep out, there's a lot more where that came from.

This case is incredibly strong.

 

[Boxer]

I think the key is, was someone killed with his iphone? Did someone get hit over the head with your other son's portable safe? If this happens, then they would likely try to find the owner of the item that looks like it might have killed someone. If there is no such item, then they would start looking for other things.

If someone were killed with your son's iphone, what are the chances that he would be doing 15 other things that exactly line up with the iphone assault? I would think very close to zero, but I don't know your son. If someone hit and killed another person by hitting them over the head with your other kid's portable safe, how likely is it he would be doing 15 other things that exactly line up with the portable safe assault?

When my friend was murdered, her boyfriend was the last to see her, but he had left for the night. His DNA was everywhere, but nothing else lined up with his killing her. It wasn't even possible. It's not DNA in the absence of anything else. It is DNA in the presence of everything else.

Exactly. When they got a name every piece started falling in place, which is what happens with the truth.

 

[Boxer]

the wrists are probably a good grabbing point. eaziest to latch onto much more so than any other point of the arm. probably more likely as well as closer to the knife and point of pain. maybe grab so tight as to go through the cloth as well?

I doubt any thing like a grip happened upstairs, Xana more likely, as she was IMO the only one who met him face to face and fought.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Not under the victim's nails?

Yes it does Imo because Maddie was out and about socializing and partying pretty much all afternoon and night. The photo taken of all 6 of them shows Maddie on top of Kaylee's shoulders. DNA picked up there likely.

She was in a bar, likely some picked up there. She was seen at the food truck walking up with hoodie guy (from the beginning) and then running and hugging someone else, could have been picked up there.

It's a nothingKoburger, if not the Defense wouldn't be trying to get it excluded. They would be shouting about it from the rooftops.

AT has to attack and spin something, she's got nothing for a solid Defense of BK.

JMO

EBM: Spelling

 

[Justice101]

I agree, at this point ALREADY, the prosecution's case is incredibly strong.

 

[SteveP]

I think the key is, was someone killed with his iphone? Did someone get hit over the head with your other son's portable safe? If this happens, then they would likely try to find the owner of the item that looks like it might have killed someone. If there is no such item, then they would start looking for other things.

If someone were killed with your son's iphone, what are the chances that he would be doing 15 other things that exactly line up with the iphone assault? I would think very close to zero, but I don't know your son. If someone hit and killed another person by hitting them over the head with your other kid's portable safe, how likely is it he would be doing 15 other things that exactly line up with the portable safe assault?

When my friend was murdered, her boyfriend was the last to see her, but he had left for the night. His DNA was everywhere, but nothing else lined up with his killing her. It wasn't even possible. It's not DNA in the absence of anything else. It is DNA in the presence of everything else.

RSBM...

It's not DNA in the absence of anything else. It is DNA in the presence of everything else.

With that one statement, you just summed up the case against BK... JMO

 

[Warwick7]

As for his motive. I said before and I still feel, if you wanted to carry out the perfect crime, if you really wanted to cause a lot of trauma and fear in a community, sneaking into a house full of people, killing only one of them, and then sneaking out unseen and unheard would do it. It's like something out of a horror movie. Isn't that Bundy attempted with his first victim? (Except she survived.)

 

[Warwick7]

I haven't made up my mind if the sheath was clasped to a belt/loop on him and it fell off during the struggle with KG. Or he carried it in and the sheath was left when he had to reach across the bed and stabbed (or cut across) KG over and over again.

 

[NCWatcher]

But that’s what I say. In the party house there are tons of DNAs. People living in the vicinity are not always the most upstanding citizens. Some were arrested in WA and then case closed, another big question but probably to my state, why it was closed, Surely involves lots of work, pois, maybe suspects. The police has to check everyone’s alibi. Leaving a sheath in that room is the great way to direct the investigation.

And imagine it were not a knife, but an iPhone? Don’t you think the conclusion would have been the same? “A phone with a person’s DNA, probably lost it and didn’t notice, he didn’t belong in that house.”

Anyhow - you explain that the source of the other DNA could have been scratched. Did they look at his scratches after the murder? No, and they were slow with that DNA. But, if the victim could have scratched someone in a bar, someone could have placed that sheath in the room.

I agree some unsavory characters probably visited the longtime party house. But they don't swab for DNA all over an entire house. Party house or not. They swab in areas of interest given the way the crime is thought to have occurred. Personally I do think it was odd they had unidentified DNA and seemingly just dismissed it. Yes-- I know some posters have insisted it didn't meet CODIS requirements or it was degraded or some other reason. But no one official has ever said that. The one cop said they would lose their "hit" if they entered more samples and got another hit. Frankly that sounded totally idiotic so who knows what LE was thinking.
MOO

 

[Boxer]

The theory that someone planted BKs sheath at the scene is very odd. If BK was passed out at a dealer’s house and woke to a missing sheath on his Kabar or the whole Kabar rig and heard about the murders, he would have gone to the police.
Or at the least had an alibi when arrested. If the knife was stolen unbeknownst to him, the same thing would apply.
Then there is the identical car the knife thief acquired.

And along with a lot of other details, there would be asking BK to head to Moscow and then turn off his phone for 3 or so hours on 11/13.

 

[Megnut]

The theory that someone planted BKs sheath at the scene is very odd. If BK was passed out at a dealer’s house and woke to a missing sheath on his Kabar or the whole Kabar rig and heard about the murders, he would have gone to the police.
Or at the least had an alibi when arrested. If the knife was stolen unbeknownst to him, the same thing would apply.
Then there is the identical car the knife thief acquired.

And along with a lot of other details, there would be asking BK to head to Moscow and then turn off his phone for 3 or so hours on 11/13.

And someone of similar build and matching brybrows.

The mental gymnastics defy gravity.

Did this twin also steal coveralls, a balaclava from BK? Or BK tossed his purchases because.....?

There's no credible way to construct a SODDI because the SODDI winds up looking just like BK. Timing. Description. Attire. Elantra. Phone hole.

Unless he's an actual twin... with whom he was in lockstep.... and that makes no sense.

It remains that BK has no alibi for 4:09-4:20. His phone was off. His car isn't captured on any cameras anywhere, where previously and later it is.

And somehow the sheath to the Kbar he purchased 8 months prior winds up under the body of one of four victims who were slaughtered. How did it get there? Magic carpet ride? There's no imagination stretch. It was hand delivered, at some point between 4:09 an 4:20, having been couriered there by Elantra from Pullman.

Inventing a third party creates explanation difficulties that aren't supported by the evidence.

JMO

 

[gremlin444]

I agree some unsavory characters probably visited the longtime party house. But they don't swab for DNA all over an entire house. Party house or not. They swab in areas of interest given the way the crime is thought to have occurred. Personally I do think it was odd they had unidentified DNA and seemingly just dismissed it. Yes-- I know some posters have insisted it didn't meet CODIS requirements or it was degraded or some other reason. But no one official has ever said that. The one cop said they would lose their "hit" if they entered more samples and got another hit. Frankly that sounded totally idiotic so who knows what LE was thinking.
MOO

At the time when forensics starting gathering evidence in the very first hours, they couldn't be sure of the killer's entrance or exit points--did the person enter and exit the same way or different ways and which door/window did they use. Heck, there were photos of evidence techs inspecting the outside of BF's window--which she knew he didn't come in or out of her room while she was in there, but they had no idea at that point if the killer had come in earlier and hidden and waited. So at that point, looking at railing next to the first floor made perfect sense.

Their final theory as to to the enter/exit point didn't emerge until after they'd had been able to interview BF&DM a few times, examine the physical terrain outside, etc. At that point they had enough evidence to state they believed entrance and exit had both been through the sliding glass door on the 2nd floor and that the killer had not used the 1st floor stairs.

If they hadn't bothered to swab/check/photo possible entrance points and stairs in the very first days, people would be having a fit saying they had missed evidence. Not saying they should swab every surface in every single room of the house--but in the first days they had to assume the first floor entrance could have been used. Once they determined it likely had not, then that handrail becomes irrelevant.

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