4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104

[INfisherman]

I imagine the State has his phone.

They'll know if his phone was in landscape or portrait when he turned it off.

Hello, CAST report.

Goodbye, Sy.

JMO

Can you hear me now?

 

[LetsSolvIt]

SM, term paper, and more: Tony Brueski’s “Hidden Killers” (April 10).

Was Kohberger Copying BTK With Public Taunts? Ret. FBI Agent Jennifer Coffindaffer Breaks It Down​

At 13:43 they refer to IDs being in a glove in a box in Pennsylvania. First I’ve heard of that. I will look for more on this. Anyone else know about IDs? Whose?

 

[Tragg]

The CNN article linked previously helped me to understand what the defense is doing with their testimony about autism.

It's obvious that they are doing what any good lawyer would do: they are arguing that the ruling in Atkins v Virginia that the death penalty could not be imposed on an adult defendant who had the intelligence of a child should be extended to require dismissal of the penalty in Kohberger's case. This question has not been resolved by any SCOTUS decision, although the Court has declined to review other DP cases making this argument. So, the attorneys are making the argument here to preserve it for an appeal if necessary, even though the trial judge may be unpersuaded.

But they are doing something else, too.

Here's a quote from the CNN piece:

"But the Supreme Court has declined to review every attempt by capital defendants to extend the reach of Atkins to other developmental disorders, including autism spectrum disorder, Robert Dunham, director of the Death Penalty Policy Project told CNN.

Even if the motion doesn’t succeed in barring the death penalty, Dunham sees 'good strategic reasons' why the defense might raise the issue.

'It’s not just because people with severe autism have the same type of adaptive deficits, have the same type of problems functioning in society, that individuals with intellectual disability have. Here, there’s also a reason to raise the issue because Kohberger’s autism is going to affect virtually every aspect of the case,' Dunham said.

They want the judge to know that his autism impairs their ability to confer with him about strategy. They want the judge to know that jurors will be looking at him and his behavior and making judgments about his likely guilt or innocence, when his demeanor has nothing to do with that – it has everything, instead, to do with some of the off-putting behaviors that go along with autism,' Dunham said.

'They want to educate the judge that, things that should be considered reasons for life, in this case, may be misinterpreted as reasons for death.'

...

In an earlier filing, prosecutors cited a state law that stipulates “mental condition shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct,” except when “expert evidence on the issues of any state of mind which is an element of the offense” is introduced.

'Part of the problem in death cases, especially with their allegations about an intellectual disability, is to distinguish a claim that the defendant is not responsible, from a claim that while the defendant is responsible, the conditions under which they acted should mitigate the punishment … and that’s what I think they’re doing in this,' (law professor Austin) Sarat told CNN."

 

[Balthazar]

Perhaps what you and I have is lack of evidence, but the state expressed that they know for certain that the phone was "turned off."

It is technically impossible for the state to know if the phone was turned off. JMO.

You have made posts that insist that AT&T was able to give the state information that the state, and a sworn statement from AT&T, says they were not. You now are positing that AT&T cannot provide information that the state says that they have with certainty. If true, perhaps the state got the info through other means. I do find it telling that when the prosecutor stated that the state knows for a fact that the phone was turned off, Judge Hippler did not ask if he had evidence of that.

AT&T would have tower dump records for all of their cell towers unless a cell tower was out of service. Apparently this data is kept for 7 years, not just 7 days. (Please see my previous post with the chart from the CAST manual showing retention periods.) JMO.

It seems to me that there is confusion over this issue but it is actually very straight forward once it is understood that AT&T made an internal change in 2023.

In 2022, AT&T used NELOS for advance timing advance reports. Sometime in 2023, AT&T changed computer systems and departments to GLDC. GLDC would NOT have data from 2022 since their system apparently has only been online since 2023. GLDC first provided LE with TAR's in May 2023, according to Sy Ray:

GLDC may have a 7 day retention period, however NELOS, which is what was being used in 2022 DOES HAVE a 7 year retention period. The people in GLDC do not provide information from NELOS, apparently. They probably never worked with NELOS and don't have access to NELOS. According to SR, BJ is one of the correct contacts for non GLDC data:
JMO.

All JMO.

ETA: As others, @Megnut and @mrjitty point out, the state HAS his phone, so I am certain that it has been forensically examined , and likely gave a wealth of information. We've already found a nice selfie there.

I guess we will all find out who knows what at trial. JMO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/032625+Defendants+Notice+of+Filing+Affidavit+iso+Obj+to+the+States+MIL+RE+ATT+Timing+Advance+Records.pdf

Hopefully this clarifies things.

All JMO.

 

[Balthazar]

You are claiming the TAR data is available for 7 years rather than 7 days based on public info. Where does it say that?

I've already posted this, but it is here:

Here's the FBI's Internal Guide for Getting Data from AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon

The newly obtained document shows in granular detail the sort of data that the country's carriers keep, and for how long.

www.vice.com

Scroll down to the chart called Provider Retention Periods. Of note, this chart is how AT&T's NELOS system was in 2021. They changed to GLDC in 2023, apparently.

JMO.

 

[LetsSolvIt]

Re my post above:
4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104
—————

Coffindaffer: ID from Idaho killings found in glove inside box​

. . . During an appearance on “NewsNation Prime” Sunday evening [9 April 2023], former FBI agent and NewsNation contributor Jennifer Coffindaffer said the ID was found concealed in a glove inside of a box.

“We know the ID was supposedly found in a box in the house inside a glove at his parents’ home, which is very interesting because it would seem as if he was keeping it a secret or hiding the IDs that were listed,” Coffindaffer said. . . .

https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/idaho-college-killings/coffindaffer-id-from-idaho-killings-found-in-glove-inside-box/

—————

Was there ever any more said about finding an ID?

 

[Balthazar]

Coffindaffer: ID from Idaho killings found in glove inside box​

. . . During an appearance on “NewsNation Prime” Sunday evening [9 April 2023], former FBI agent and NewsNation contributor Jennifer Coffindaffer said the ID was found concealed in a glove inside of a box.

“We know the ID was supposedly found in a box in the house inside a glove at his parents’ home, which is very interesting because it would seem as if he was keeping it a secret or hiding the IDs that were listed,” Coffindaffer said. . . .

https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/idaho-college-killings/coffindaffer-id-from-idaho-killings-found-in-glove-inside-box/

I'm definitely interested in this ID. I wonder if it was an ID from when BK was underage making him "older" like so many minors get to be able to enter bars and nightclubs and/or buy alcohol and cigarettes? At this point, I don't think it is one of the victim's ID's or that would have made the headlines by now.

 

[LetsSolvIt]

I'm definitely interested in this ID. I wonder if it was an ID from when BK was underage making him "older" like so many minors get to be able to enter bars and nightclubs and/or buy alcohol and cigarettes? At this point, I don't think it is one of the victim's ID's or that would have made the headlines by now.

Sounds like it might have been the ID of a victim, but these are early stories. Except for Tony Brueski’s discussion two days ago, I haven’t found anything more recent than April 2023.

Smoking gun evidence found in Bryan Kohberger's home—report

Kohberger, 28, is charged with breaking into a home in Moscow and fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

“According to court documents unsealed last month, ID cards inside a glove inside a box were among the items police seized during a search of Kohberger's parents' home in Albrightsville.

“NewsNation reported that an ID connected to someone from the home where the slayings took place was found during a search.“

 

[Warwick7]

"AT&T uses a system known as Network Event Location System (NELOS) to estimate the location of mobile devices within their network. NELOS is a form of Timing Advance and AT&T is transitioning to a TDOA system of PCMD similar to T-Mobiles system."

A Cops Guide To Cellular Network Investigations | Warrant Builder

Learn key topics for investigating cellular networks like how mobile phones use networks, important identifiers, and locating phones using cell towers.

warrantbuilder.com

You are claiming the TAR data is available for 7 years rather than 7 days based on public info. Where does it say that?

So here goes confused Warwick again...

How can it be 7 years? Prosecution has a signed something or other legally stating that: with a warrant LE can have TAR, but they had to have contacted them around 11-13-22 because after 7 days that information disappears.

This link can not be smarter or more up to date than the prosecution. If it was "7 years" then LE would have that info. As it stands AT&T says they can't give it.

 

[Sachi]

DBM
-

 

[MassGuy]

It is not possible for cellphone companies to tell if a phone is turned off or if the battery is dead or if the phone is out of range of cell towers. So, I don't believe that the State knows if or can prove that BK turned his phone off. NELOS is strictly information from cell towers about cell phone connectivity. That information will not tell LE anything to definitively prove the state of BK's phone. What we have here is a lack of evidence, unfortunately. JMO.

They have his phone, which would answer that question. They've now confirmed on two separate occasions that the phone was manually powered off, and the defense has not pushed back on that.

We've seen this in tons of recent cases on here. They know when a phone was placed on charge, when it was unlocked, if it moved, when it was powered down, when it was powered back on, when it was put into airplane mode, etc, etc.

Forensic tools can extract system logs that record when the phone was powered on or off. These logs often include timestamps for boot-up and shutdown events, which could confirm whether the phone was deliberately turned off.

 

[Arkay]

“NewsNation reported that an ID connected to someone from the home where the slayings took place was found during a search.“

If this turns out to be accurate, then IMO it’s case closed.

Big “if,” though. I’m not a Coffindaffer fan.

 

[NCWatcher]

Sounds like it might have been the ID of a victim, but these are early stories. Except for Tony Brueski’s discussion two days ago, I haven’t found anything more recent than April 2023.

Smoking gun evidence found in Bryan Kohberger's home—report

Kohberger, 28, is charged with breaking into a home in Moscow and fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

“According to court documents unsealed last month, ID cards inside a glove inside a box were among the items police seized during a search of Kohberger's parents' home in Albrightsville.

“NewsNation reported that an ID connected to someone from the home where the slayings took place was found during a search.“

Agree. I thought LE had said the IDs were not victim IDs at some point but I cannot find any MSM story saying that. After searching, I can say that Jennifer Coffindaffer ex-FBI agent from NewsNation appears to have been the only one saying the IDs were connected to the crime. Any story saying that referenced her claim. And she and NewsNation have certainly said false things in other cases (e.g., Gabby Petito, Riley Strain)
MOO

 

[Boxer]

Yes, that seems to be exactly what's happening. But realistically we all know (as does the state) that jurors are affected by the defendant's courtroom appearance and demeanor. That's why, for example, a defendant can't be forced to appear before jurors in prison garb during the trial.

One can argue that because jurors are supposed to attend only to the evidence, no correction for possible attendance to other factors is appropriate no matter what we know is often true. And that seems to be a main argument here. But a change of venue is a correction too-- it attempts to correct for the jury's exposure to pre-trial information even though jurors are not supposed to take that information into account when rendering their decision. Rather they are supposed to base their decision on only courtroom evidence. And potential jurors are often asked to promise they'll do that during voir dire. But we know they may not do that no matter how sincere they are in their promises.

Jurors are also not supposed to read about or watch news programs about the trial as it is occurring. Many times, for trials lasting multiple days, the judge questions the jury each day about any exposure to trial information outside of the courtroom since the previous day. And when jurors are sequestered in a hotel during the trial, nobody depends on jurors promising not to do those things. Instead, controls are put in place. Jurors are not permitted to have access to newspapers in the hotel and in their rooms, their television programming is set to block news coverage. They cannot use cell phones, at least not in private. So we do know that active controls can be used to "force" the jurors to avoid encountering information that is not evidence in court.

I am not arguing AT's apparent solution should be adopted in this case. But to argue against it because jurors are instructed to ignore a defendant's demeanor seems silly to me.
MOO

We can see him in the courtroom now, he looks around and listens to what is going on.
Its the car, DNA, knife , balaclava, witness description and no alibi not his demeanor that the jurors will be evaluating.

 

[NCWatcher]

We can see him in the courtroom now, he looks around and listens to what is going on.
Its the car, DNA, knife , balaclava, witness description and no alibi not his demeanor that the jurors will be evaluating.

Yes, we see BK now. I don't think one can claim everyone who is going to serve as a juror is watching now though. Most people are probably going about their lives and not paying too much attention at this point

It would be nice to think jurors only attend to courtroom evidence when rendering a decision, not to demeanor, not to pre-trial coverage, not to news coverage during the trial, not to the attorneys' perceived "personalities," not to whether the defendant testifies...But that seems quite unrealistic. We know of trials where it's come out after-the-fact other information was discussed during deliberations. And research on decision-making suggests humans cannot compartmentalize as well as some people seem to think. We also know if during a trial it comes to light a juror has, ssy, sought out outside information, at the very least that juror will be dismissed. If it was so easy for people to ignore information, why not tell that juror to ignore what he learned? And if it had been shared with other jurors, tell them to ignore it? That's not what happens though. If the info has been shared widely, more likely there would be a mistrial.
MOO

 

[MassGuy]

Sounds like it might have been the ID of a victim, but these are early stories. Except for Tony Brueski’s discussion two days ago, I haven’t found anything more recent than April 2023.

Smoking gun evidence found in Bryan Kohberger's home—report

Kohberger, 28, is charged with breaking into a home in Moscow and fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

“According to court documents unsealed last month, ID cards inside a glove inside a box were among the items police seized during a search of Kohberger's parents' home in Albrightsville.

“NewsNation reported that an ID connected to someone from the home where the slayings took place was found during a search.“

Yeah, there's just no way that's true, just like I don't believe there is a social media connection.

We would know about this stuff by now, and both parties have said there is no connection like the latter.

 

[Gigiky]

So was it one ID or more than one?

 

[al66pine]

"10 Curls" or "ID Cards"???

Sounds like it might have been the ID of a victim, but these are early stories. Except for Tony Brueski’s discussion two days ago, I haven’t found anything more recent than April 2023.

Smoking gun evidence found in Bryan Kohberger's home—report

Kohberger, 28, is charged with breaking into a home in Moscow and fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

“According to court documents unsealed last month, ID cards inside a glove inside a box were among the items police seized during a search of Kohberger's parents' home in Albrightsville.

“NewsNation reported that an ID connected to someone from the home where the slayings took place was found during a search.“

@LetsSolvIt
FWIW
IIRC, waaay back when lists of items seized pursuant to S-Wrnts were initially released to the media (sorry, no link), at least one list was HANDWRITTEN and some items were open to differing interpretations. A lot of discussion here on WS ensued.

Some posters read the entry as "10 Curls" and others read it as "ID Cards."

Then posts speculated about whose ID cards.
BK's, maybe then-current or stale? Or some deceased victims in 1122 King? Or victims elsewhere?

I do not recall if any motions or other doc's filed have provided further info on this.
Anyone?

Not speaking to significance or admissibility of items found in BK's vehicle or in his parents' home.
Caveat: going by memory on this, without going to links in OP.

 

[MassGuy]

So was it one ID or more than one?

I think it was multiple; perhaps his old ones or something.

This guy didn't have time to go digging through victim's wallets for ID's, and as we've learned from following cases on here, the vast majority of items listed on search warrants tend to wind up being irrelevant.

 

[Megnut]

So, if AT&T used different retention software prior to 2023, at crossover, it's not like AT&T then handed over data they didn't have from one software program to the other. There was no data, no ATR for BK. For two reasons. One, had his phone been on, they missed the seven-day mark. No data was saved. But two, his phone was OFF. NO data could be collected. None saved. Not for seven days, not for seven years, nor for seventy times seven.

Same cam be said of how many difference business cctv systems? Maybe have a two-week overwrite. If businesses amd residents weren't alerted -- to save their cctv -- from 11/13/2022, it was long erased before BK's name was known, including additional information on his habits and movements, directing LE where to look. Time was of the essence... but on some, time ran out.

Sure a lot of noise -- public hearing grandstsnding -- over phone records and who has them, doesn't have them, who is withholding what -- over a phone that was OFF, and wasnt reporting to any tower anywhere.

Why'd'ja do that, BK? Star gazing off grid? With 90% battery? Preserving precious battery? Sure. People do that.

Except he wasn't stargazing. He was driving a loop pattern over in Moscow... where four young people were murdered, where his DNA was found on the sheath, partner to the murder weapon, during a critical 10 minute period where he has no alibi.

Frankly I don't care where anyone puts BK at 2:50am. Sy Ray, AT&T, AT. Nothing but a curiosity really.

It's only relevant -- crutically relevant -- where he was at 4:12.


JMO