4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104

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  • #681
Should all defendant be in a one way box? That is the only solution I see as every defendant is in court woth their attorney in person.

Defendants have the right to face their accusers, do the victims (via the state prosecution) not hove the right to face the charged defendant?
While defendants have a Constitutional right to face their accusers, I don't know if victims have a right to face the accused in a courtroom. I rather doubt it. Trials aren't held for the benefit of victims per se. Trials are held for the benefit of society as a whole. While trials in absentia are not common and often are not permitted,
"..the Constitution itself does not prohibit trial from being commenced in defendant's absence so long as defendant knowingly and voluntarily waives his right to be present.” in absentia
This, the defendant appears to hold all the "Constitutional cards" in that regard

In my post, I wasn't suggesting a one-size-fits-all solution to prevent juries from being swayed by the defendant's appearance or demeanor. In fact, I wasn't suggesting a solution at all. I was responding to the argument that jurors are told to consider only the evidence presented in court and so they wouldn't be affected by BK's appearance/demeanor. I find it ludicrous to think that. And I find it equally ludicrous to think that any effect appearance/demeanor did have can be easily removed by instructing jurors to ignore those factors. We know that's not true. People are often affected at an unconscious or pre-conscious level. And we know jurors may may be affected by other kinds of non-evidentiary material when rendering a decision. We do have some methods to try to offset those other effects (such as changes of venue, sequestration, prohibition of jail garb if the jury will be present, and so on.)
MOO
 
  • #682
Yes, he botched a fish cleaning job, and that requires a very high level dexterity, but IIRC it was his customer interactions, refusing to cut the fish the way they wanted, that did him in, not making bad cuts.
Do you have a link for that? I don't think it's true.

According to this link More details of Bryan Kohberger's past emerges
BK's boss (Charles Conklin, the owner of Big Brown Fish and Pay Lakes) said trainees do not cut the customers fish & BK was a trainee. BK also was not allowed to interact with customers because according to Conklin, "He wasn't able to make eye contact with customers and be friendly to them and he never got good enough for us to allow him to filet customers' fish." Further "he "never warmed up and got friendly" during the job he held for 4 months (working about 20 days) when he was about 16. Sounds like the problem wasn't that he was argumentative or refusing to cut fish as requested. Sounds like he was very socially awkward.
MOO
 
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  • #683
10 Curls or ?
@al66pine, Thank you. So much to keep track of and much time has passed. I clearly missed these points when discussed.
@LetsSolvIt Yes, exactly, lots to keep track of, but it's good to revisit some issues every so often.

ETA: No need for an apology. It's all good.
 
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  • #684
I suspect AT believes, based on conversations with Sy Ray, that Ballance may have been able to access BK's TARs through some sort of back channel, even if he didn't pass them on to the prosecution, and she wants to get him under oath to ask.
JMO
 
  • #685
Another tidbit from hearings: AT indicated they think they have a lead on another potential assailant in this case. Wonder what will develop with this — either a co-conspirator or an alternative murderer? Or no one — just excuse to stall or another attempt to confuse. OMO.
 
  • #686
I suspect AT believes, based on conversations with Sy Ray, that Ballance may have been able to access BK's TARs through some sort of back channel, even if he didn't pass them on to the prosecution, and she wants to get him under oath to ask.
JMO

yes. and that it is secretly being withheld because it shows the real killer!

of course the prosecution would love the TARs for those key weeks around the murders.
 
  • #687
Another tidbit from hearings: AT indicated they think they have a lead on another potential assailant in this case. Wonder what will develop with this — either a co-conspirator or an alternative murderer? Or no one — just excuse to stall or another attempt to confuse. OMO.
It would be an alternative murderer. A co-conspirator doesn't make him any less guilty, and would seal his fate.
 
  • #688
Hey Everyone,
Please stay on topic.
Thank you,
Tricia
 
  • #689
I hope they whip out some "certain" evidence soon, because a lot of it isn't doing it for me (personally) and there's definitely a lot of people who feel the same. I haven't read/engaged in this thread very much, but I'd like more definitive evidence.
 
  • #690
Another tidbit from hearings: AT indicated they think they have a lead on another potential assailant in this case. Wonder what will develop with this — either a co-conspirator or an alternative murderer? Or no one — just excuse to stall or another attempt to confuse. OMO.
The defense has had 2.5 years to investigate other potential suspects. Yet they don't know who their alternative suspects are 4 months before trial.
 
  • #691
Another tidbit from hearings: AT indicated they think they have a lead on another potential assailant in this case. Wonder what will develop with this — either a co-conspirator or an alternative murderer? Or no one — just excuse to stall or another attempt to confuse. OMO.
Just a stall tactic, and another Hail Mary pass aimed at hopefully getting the DP removed from the case...a tip about a potential alternate suspect, or an expert to state that the murders were likely done by two people with two weapons., all coming to light just now, two and a half years after the arrest of BK, in order to highlight what the defense has not been able to investigate because of claims of either not getting discovery in a timely matter, or of getting so much discovery that the defense has not had time to look at it all. BTW, two murderers, which I do not think anyone believes that there were, would still not preclude BK from being one of the two, especially given that it is HIS DNA on a knife sheath that was found in the bed with a brutally knifed victim. If he had a co-conspirator, and I do not think that anyone believes that either, he may want to start naming names, because I do not believe the defense is going to convince anyone that there were two murderers, and BK was neither of them. JMO
 
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  • #692
The defense has had 2.5 years to investigate other potential suspects. Yet they don't know who their alternative suspects are 4 months before trial.
And as for this "other potential suspect,"
AT said she needs more time to view discovery, Judge was not happy about that.

Judge just called AT out. Reminding her she asked for a delay, which he granted, so why are they waiting until NOW to do this?

AT said they haven't had time to look at discovery.

She whined that there was hundreds of hours of street traffic to look through, and it wasn't all labeled w/specifics, so she has to try and look at each one to see when and where...

And I think she had expected the state to have looked at each one and put a label with date and location. 🥴

Hippler reminded AT she had taken on a new DP case since this one began - he asked why she would take this additional case on when she was already overwhelmed with BK’s. Ouch!!
 
  • #693
There is no viable alternative suspect or they would be shouting from the rooftops.
 
  • #694
While defendants have a Constitutional right to face their accusers, I don't know if victims have a right to face the accused in a courtroom. I rather doubt it. Trials aren't held for the benefit of victims per se. Trials are held for the benefit of society as a whole. While trials in absentia are not common and often are not permitted,
"..the Constitution itself does not prohibit trial from being commenced in defendant's absence so long as defendant knowingly and voluntarily waives his right to be present.” in absentia
This, the defendant appears to hold all the "Constitutional cards" in that regard

In my post, I wasn't suggesting a one-size-fits-all solution to prevent juries from being swayed by the defendant's appearance or demeanor. In fact, I wasn't suggesting a solution at all. I was responding to the argument that jurors are told to consider only the evidence presented in court and so they wouldn't be affected by BK's appearance/demeanor. I find it ludicrous to think that. And I find it equally ludicrous to think that any effect appearance/demeanor did have can be easily removed by instructing jurors to ignore those factors. We know that's not true. People are often affected at an unconscious or pre-conscious level. And we know jurors may may be affected by other kinds of non-evidentiary material when rendering a decision. We do have some methods to try to offset those other effects (such as changes of venue, sequestration, prohibition of jail garb if the jury will be present, and so on.)
MOO
MOO
To be fair what ever solution to that would need to apply to all defendants.

If the witness saw a man with no eyebrows and BK turned out to have alopecia, it would be the same problem, he has a feature noted by the witness- is that evidence supposed to be excluded from trial?
 
  • #695
Do you have a link for that? I don't think it's true.

According to this link More details of Bryan Kohberger's past emerges
BK's boss (Charles Conklin, the owner of Big Brown Fish and Pay Lakes) said trainees do not cut the customers fish & BK was a trainee. BK also was not allowed to interact with customers because according to Conklin, "He wasn't able to make eye contact with customers and be friendly to them and he never got good enough for us to allow him to filet customers' fish." Further "he "never warmed up and got friendly" during the job he held for 4 months (working about 20 days) when he was about 16. Sounds like the problem wasn't that he was argumentative or refusing to cut fish as requested. Sounds like he was very socially awkward.
MOO
Ok I am wrong, his customer and maybe work interactions were too poor for the job at all.
And sounds likw he was not good at filleting fish, a picky job.
But sounds like they thought he might be able to.
 
  • #696
MOO
To be fair what ever solution to that would need to apply to all defendants.

If the witness saw a man with no eyebrows and BK turned out to have alopecia, it would be the same problem, he has a feature noted by the witness- is that evidence supposed to be excluded from trial?
"Fixes" for anticipated jury problems don't always apply to all defendants. Not all requests for changes of venue are approved, not all juries are sequestered, and so forth.

I think this discussion is veering off topic though especially if whataboutism continues to raise new issues. I'm bowing out.
MOO
 
  • #697
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  • #698
Yeah, there's just no way that's true, just like I don't believe there is a social media connection.

We would know about this stuff by now, and both parties have said there is no connection like the latter.
Just me asking and a real question.. Why would we ( the public "we") think we would know about these things? I believe that there is evidence we don't actually know the importance of and maybe some we know nothing of, but both defense and prosecution do. Is there reason to believe that the public knows everything that defense and prosecution do?
 
  • #699
Ok I am wrong, his customer and maybe work interactions were too poor for the job at all.
And sounds likw he was not good at filleting fish, a picky job.
But sounds like they thought he might be able to.

I don't know how long he's been vegan but maybe filleting the fish put him off flesh? Then again you'd think it put him off stabbing people too.

I wonder when he went vegan and for what reasons? I have nothing against veganism and totally support it, just curious. I don't think someone could be vegan and work filleting fish if they went vegan for ethical or spiritual reasons. Also food phobias or restricted eating are a real biggie for ASD peoples and he probably is on the spectrum, just also happens to have other more serious and pressing personality problems. JMO MOO
 
  • #700
Just me asking and a real question.. Why would we ( the public "we") think we would know about these things? I believe that there is evidence we don't actually know the importance of and maybe some we know nothing of, but both defense and prosecution do. Is there reason to believe that the public knows everything that defense and prosecution do?
There is definitely evidence we know nothing about, but in regards to this particular social media connection, I recall it being put to bed by both parties during the discussion regarding the juror questioner. The prosecution took issue with a question about stalking a victim, saying it was false.

As for the ID's, it just makes no sense on its face. This guy didn't have the time to be fishing around for victim ID's.
 
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