4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #106

[PunishThenForgive]

I understand my phrasing came across that way, since we don't "know" each other. I'm not a true crime person. For some reason the Idaho 4 case grabbed my attention, and across hundreds of posts I've made on this forum about this case, I've been on the fence: Did BK really do it or not? It was very important to me to feel sure they had the right person and that there wasn't someone else out there, getting away with such a horrible crime.
There were many elements hinting to "yes", but the gag order meant a lot was under wraps. I wasted spent so much time reading every court document, micro-analyzing every open hearing, watching various POV's in YouTube videos, researching store opening times, kbar knife makes and models, touch DNA transfer, IGG, and posting so many questions here, trying to make up my mind.
The info about the Amazon sheath replacement that came out in court convinced me, and if that had come out earlier I would have wasted less time sleuthing.

BBM

I hear you. This is the first and only case I’ve followed obsessively on Websleuths, but before that, I followed another case on Reddit and other SM that hits far closer to home.

The murder took place three hours from me and involved a love triangle. A boyfriend played psychological games with his live-in girlfriend, and she apparently snapped by murdering the other woman (who didn’t even realize she was the other woman).

I had a past boyfriend do the same thing to me, but I didn’t kill the other woman (or my ex), and I didn’t want to believe the accused woman was guilty.

And this woman definitely looked guilty, especially when federal agents captured her in Central America with a new face and dyed hair.

But I still (in hindsight, ridiculously) clung to the belief that the boyfriend —or possibly another man who seemed overly besotted with the much younger victim—could be the murderer.

I could stubbornly cling to this belief because the PC statement left room for doubt. It revealed no evidence that proved exactly when the murder took place, so the boyfriend could have done it. Plus, the accused woman’s defense attorney told Dateline’s Keith Morrison that his client had an alibi!

But the prosecution had the evidence all along that proved the accused was guilty and that her boyfriend was innocent (of murder, at least). They had a time-stamped audio recording of the murder (three gunshots), captured by a neighbor’s security camera! The boyfriend was talking on his cellphone at home, miles away at the exact time of the shooting, so he couldn’t have done it.

I was so angry. Why had I wasted my time reading all those Reddit and Twitter and Facebook posts? Why did that defense attorney tell a bald face lie to millions of people on Dateline, including potential jurors?

Anyway, that’s when I learned that PC statements don’t have to reveal all the evidence against a defendant, police don’t have to reveal why an alternative suspect (in my suspicious eyes) has been cleared, and defense attorneys will lie to try to get their clients off (at least on Dateline).

But I was now hooked on true crime, having learned my lessons.

So when the Snapchat video proved during trial that Alex Murdaugh was indeed present minutes before the brutal murders of his wife and son, I wasn’t shocked.

I was annoyed, though, and still am, that cases like Murdaugh and the present one sometimes go to trial when the prosecution has the goods on a defendant, but the defendant decides to roll the dice anyway and go to trial. At the cost of millions of Idaho tax payer dollars.

IMOO, of course.

 

[MeadowMuffin]

I thought per recent information that EC was found in XK's bed with severely injured achilles' tendons, so I'm not sure how he'd get from a collapsed state on the floor back into bed? MOO

Xana was on the floor, EC in bed. I'm thinking BK followed XK into the bedroom, injured her, and EC attempted to help but had his throat slashed. Carotid artery, pass away in a few minutes but lack of blood flow to brain could cause hypovolemic shock and unconsciousness in a minute, not able to scream or fight back. When he was incapacitated, BK either knifed EC's legs then or attacked XK again, not sure of order. I think the second assault on EC was due to BK's evil twisted jealousy. No way would EC just lie there and let him do that without alerting the whole house by screaming, he had to have been unconscious. IMO.

 

[otto]

something might have spooked him...he had to know screeching out of there would make noise and draw attention. he may have been unable to control the adrenaline. more evidence against him.
there he goes tearing away out like a bat out of hell. mOO

Maybe seeing the roommate at the bedroom door scared him into thinking that she had phoned police and that they would be there any minute - so he didn't have time to collect his sheath or murder one more person.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Xana was on the floor, EC in bed. I'm thinking BK followed XK into the bedroom, injured her, and EC attempted to help but had his throat slashed. Carotid artery, pass away in a few minutes but lack of blood flow to brain could cause hypovolemic shock and unconsciousness in a minute, not able to scream or fight back. When he was incapacitated, BK either knifed EC's legs then or attacked XK again, not sure of order. I think the second assault on EC was due to BK's evil twisted jealousy. No way would EC just lie there and let him do that without alerting the whole house by screaming, he had to have been unconscious. IMO.

I fear Ethan was the one who was actually passed out drunk (instead of Xana), and BK killed him gratuitously, out of envy of a successful “Chad.”

Of course, BK had no way of knowing Ethan wouldn’t wake up, but he didn’t kill Dylan, who was awake.

IMO

 

[Best of What's Around]

Anyway, Ethan’s car was parked out front, along with Kaylee’s new car, and BK still went in. That’s how invincible he felt. He didn’t care who he might encounter.

Could be one of the reasons he circled (besides perhaps a light or lights on while Xana waited for DoorDash), I think the combination of being all prepared and ready to go overcame his failing common sense that there are too many unknown variables to proceed. Then again, his common sense and criminal mastermind logic told him sure, in the ring doorbell age, go with your own bright white car. Bundy didn't have to face that in the 70s. Between DNA, phone tracking, and cameras abounding, it is a different time (thank goodness!). How was he going to advise the local police department on the digital age when he failed spectacularly in his own crime? Speaking of which - an aside - it may have been discussed previously but I have been wondering why in the world he was bothering to remove his own DNA from family garbage when he is blood related to others in the household? Did he think they would run it just for a perfect match with a yes or no answer? Even those of us without a criminal justice background know that will not delay the inevitable immediate familial match. Wearing gloves and putting his personal garbage in the neighbor's bin while at home only made him look more guilty (later family testimony, suspicion, and shockingly actually getting caught in the act by LE) - with zero chance for it helping his chances if LE was already checking the family garbage.

Can you even imagine? Someone calls it in, he's there explaining why he's driving recklessly. Why he's driving at all, at 4 in the morning.

Sir, why is your car lined with plastic?

Eyes open wide, as always, "on way to Dexter-Con?"

Agree, I think it could have been a bit of both. He definitely had to incapacitate the biggest threat, but a forceful punch to the upper torso, neck area with that KABAR would have done that.

To take the time to 'carve' Ethan's legs seems more than that to me. It's like punishment for being in a house with all the pretty young girls hatred of the popular jock kind of thing IMO.

Good thinking on the meaning behind it - he most certainly would have envied fraternity guys with girlfriends, but I think the reasoning was likely simpler - being sure the man lying in bed could never get up to pursue him. Lying asleep in bed, punches to the torso and other stand-up maneuvers would be more difficult. He was likely losing steam as well.

I think it makes sense that he appeared to be most prepared for hand to hand combat and those unexpected scenarios, as those are what fit into his fantasies. Fantasizing of stealing a car so you don't take your own (somewhat rare for a cold winter town) white elantra to embark upon your Bundy 2.0 spree, was likely not where his tunnel vision was in prepping.

Thank goodness he is only a legend in his own mind. Bye Bye Bry! (and yes, I can't stop singing it; it may not be criminal to massacre a catchy nSync song, but he's guilty of this as well for me).

Apologies for the levity, it is how I deal with this senseless, disgusting depravity. I mean zero disrespect.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Maybe seeing the roommate at the bedroom door scared him into thinking that she had phoned police and that they would be there any minute - so he didn't have time to collect his sheath or murder one more person.

This is my suspicion, too, heightened when others here speculated that BK wrapped the knife after murdering Xana and Ethan, making it impossible to access immediately.

IMO

 

[Kudzuu]

I thought per recent information that EC was found in XK's bed with severely injured achilles' tendons, so I'm not sure how he'd get from a collapsed state on the floor back into bed? MOO

I remember something like that too.

But my thinking about the voices/crying and thump followed by the barking dog brought me to that opinion because of the location of the camera that picked up the audio. It was at 1112 King Rd. less than 50 feet from the outside wall of XK 's room.

Perhaps the bed was placed with space between the wall and bed to allow the persons sleeping in the bed to not have to wake the other person up to give tinkle in the night? XK probably was not in bed yet.

BK attacks XK waking EC up and he wakes up and in the struggle maybe his head and shoulders hit the wall causing him to be partially on and off the bed.

Or maybe the following description of attack woke EC up. Much has been said about BK cutting EC's calves (I think) to sever some tendons so he could not walk or stand. So EC sits up in response and fights but BK has the advantage and the weapon. He could not get out of the bed much less back into it but his head and torso could have fallen or been pushed against the wall and hanging into that space. That could be the loud thud. EC was a big guy .

If I'm not mistaken that is the same wall where the blood was dripping. There is an Ashley Banfield podcast with the coroner stating that it was blood. The link is up thread but I couldn't get it to play so no link provided. If that is true it makes even more sense. Sorry I can't confirm so another opinion.
MOO

 

[sar2them1984]

I can't do that. You can't detain me. I googled it. I know my rights. I didn't do anything wrong. We don't have parked cars in PA where I'm from. And I didn't hit it. It was in the wrong place.

That gave me a much needed giggle

 

[gremlin444]

Yes! Metal on metal. But would the timing work?

Court documents say Xana was on TikTok at 4:12.

Someone was asking how could we know if the timestamps on the neighbor's camera were correct. I believe they are due to the fact that they are the same times that are being stated in court documents for the different events. When they pair the times for the car travel on that camera with the times that car/it's lights appears on other cameras in the neighborhood, they work out. Grey Hughes has a video(s) showing how the neighbor's video camera footage times are accurate by going between the document with all the times from all the neighborhood cameras and footage of him driving that same route.

Here are the exact time stamps from the neighbor's security camera:

4:17:33-4:17:35 voice(s) caught on camera
4:17:40 thud sound
4:17:53 dog starts to bark
4:20:45 headlights of killers car show up on camera followed shortly by the car itself coming within view

--end of voices to thud sound: 5 seconds
--end of thud to the dog starting to bark: 13 seconds
--beginning of dog barking to car headlights coming into view as it starts to speed away (which ----isn't necessarily when the car was started...the problem is, we don't know where he parked. If he parked on the hill to the side there would be several seconds between the car starting and when it turned onto the road in front of the house): 2 min 53 seconds

If the voice sounds came from inside the house, than IMHO the thud had to as well because those two things were only 5 seconds apart--not enough time for BK get from XK's room and out through the slider door to make that thud outside. When DM saw him, she didn't say he was running.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Court documents say Xana was on TikTok at 4:12.

Someone was asking how could we know if the timestamps on the neighbor's camera were correct. I believe they are due to the fact that they are the same times that are being stated in court documents for the different events. When they pair the times for the car travel on that camera with the times that car/it's lights appears on other cameras in the neighborhood, they work out. Grey Hughes has a video(s) showing how the neighbor's video camera footage times are accurate by going between the document with all the times from all the neighborhood cameras and footage of him driving that same route.

Here are the exact time stamps from the neighbor's security camera:

4:17:33-4:17:35 voice(s) caught on camera
4:17:40 thud sound
4:17:53 dog starts to bark
4:20:45 headlights of killers car show up on camera followed shortly by the car itself coming within view

--end of voices to thud sound: 5 seconds
--end of thud to the dog starting to bark: 13 seconds
--beginning of dog barking to car headlights coming into view as it starts to speed away (which ----isn't necessarily when the car was started...the problem is, we don't know where he parked. If he parked on the hill to the side there would be several seconds between the car starting and when it turned onto the road in front of the house): 2 min 53 seconds

If the voice sounds came from inside the house, than IMHO the thud had to as well because those two things were only 5 seconds apart--not enough time for BK get from XK's room and out through the slider door to make that thud outside. When DM saw him, she didn't say he was running.

Thank you so much!

 

[Best of What's Around]

I was annoyed, though, and still am, that cases like Murdaugh and the present one sometimes go to trial when the prosecution has the goods on a defendant, but the defendant decides to roll the dice anyway and go to trial. At the cost of millions of Idaho tax payer dollars.

Agreed completely. But we see the pattern of those who are delusional to think there is a chance and feel no shame - some even relishing the spotlight and their 15 minutes (Leticia, Bryan, Lori). IMO Chris Watts wasn't more rational nor prudent in pleading, he was the type whose whole existence revolved around avoiding negative attention during life. It actually would have been absolute torture for him to sit through a trial IMO. His whole persona was being the dependable, innocuous, good guy in life and never being seen as the source of conflict. I would wager being exposed and discussed for months on end was a worse fate than waterboarding. He picked up that Bible awfully quickly to attempt to claw back the good guy status in the eyes of at least a few and hold his head up again. I don't think it was the death penalty that actually made this one take a plea...but wanting his ugly monster tucked back under the rock.

And then there is the other one human thing the rest of us could relate to...that they face a lifetime of 24/7 same in, same out. Being in court is something different and prolongs the inevitable that nothing will ever change until you go out in a box. If you feel no shame, where is the downside? Suddenly, OJ Simpson verdicts seem attainable.

I think we need more of an incentive to get people to plea - especially since whether you are pro/anti death penalty, given the 20+ year timelines in many states, I am not sure it is enough of a deterrent in many cases IMO. Maybe somewhat better crappy prison conditions versus the worst - since we had to waste our tax dollars and surviving victims court torture on their amusement and rolling of fixed dice? Bigger windows in the cell? Better accommodations/activities? Food? I don't know, but I would not be for reduced time in heinous, violent crimes. Slippery slope when attempting to induce a guilty plea - too stark a difference in outcome could also incentivize the innocent. I wonder where Bryan the graduate student stood on this issue?

Wow, just noticed how long my posts are. Will work on that! Apologies!

 

[femto]

If Dateline is correct, I think it's relatively easy to reconstruct the crime. He enters, goes to the top (meanwhile he just misses Xana who is unpacking her food), finds Kaylee in Maddie's room and decides to go for it anyway. Quickly tries to kill Maddie who doesn't have any chance to fight back but this wakes Kaylee up who does. This pisses him off and he's extra brutal with her because of it because his perfect crime got ruined. In the mean time Xana, like Dylan, hears the commotion upstairs and goes to check. She finds Kohberger doing what he is doing and he attacks her, she runs down the stairs to her room trying to get Ethan with Kohberger coming in straight (which is probably where the loud thud is heard from). He immediately sees Ethan starting to wake up and dispatches him quickly then goes back to Xana while trying to make her relax with the 'i'm here to help you'. At this point he probably carves Ethan's legs in frustrated rage and sits for a second to get his bearings. He then leaves either missing Dylan or seeing her but deciding it's not worth it as he has already spent too much time in the house.

I don't think there was any actual fight besides Kaylee and Xana. Ethan was way too inebriated and sleepy to have realized what is going on before he was killed. Kaylee too as the same and to her it was probably instictual as Bryan was killing her friend. The only one who fought back was Xana because despite her being drunk, at least she was awake.

Agreed completely. But we see the pattern of those who are delusional to think there is a chance and feel no shame - some even relishing the spotlight and their 15 minutes (Leticia, Bryan, Lori).

Well, the thing is - Bryan has no reason to plea. The only reason would be to take the DP off the table, but I doubt the prosecution will be willing to do that. This is a very, very important case for Idaho and they are going to want to make an example out of him. They also hold all the cards and their case is very strong. Furthermore, I do not think the parents will go for it. At least I'm sure the Goncalves won't relent on the DP. What can Bryan even give them? Motive? Who was his true victim? That isn't gonna change anything. Besides come trial both of those things might become clear. He has nothing to bargain with.

 

[NervousNellie]

One thing that hasn't been clarified is whether all these time stamps are synced with one another. I.e., is the "4:12" timestamp on TikTok the same as a 4:12 stamp on the audio recording, or the video recording (is the audio recording with the thud and barking the same recording that shows the car speeding away? or is that two separate cameras?)

 

[Justice101]

obviously you don't have to take an interest in every case but saying you've lost interest in this case because "any doubt about whodunnit is totally gone" feels kinda ick to me. like these are real people who have been murdered, this isn't a fun whodunnit murder mystery puzzle. jmo

The reality is that probably over half of the people visiting here care mainly about the facts and ultimately the outcome of the case and therefore once the outcome is pretty much determined (suspect identified and arrested, specific evidence released to the public so that they can determine if they think the suspect did it and that there is strong case, and defense lawyers motions judged on), 90% of those 50% leave the case and move on to the next one.

Most people who dismiss that as a motive behind their own interest, are not honest enough with themselves to understand that deep down, this is part of the attraction.

I want justice for each case. And once I am satisfied they have enough facts to have arrested the right person, I am relieved and pull back a little knowing that justice will be served.

Just my studied opinion, of course.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

One thing that hasn't been clarified is whether all these time stamps are synced with one another. I.e., is the "4:12" timestamp on TikTok the same as a 4:12 stamp on the audio recording, or the video recording (is the audio recording with the thud and barking the same recording that shows the car speeding away? or is that two separate cameras?)

Good questions! Hopefully, the prosecution knows, if not Dateline.

Given the angle of the Dateline video, though, and the description of the location of the security camera that picked up the audio, I suspect the video and audio recordings are from the same device.

IMO

 

[SteveP]

Good questions! Hopefully, the prosecution knows, if not Dateline.

Given the angle of the Dateline video, though, and the description of the location of the security camera that picked up the audio, I suspect the video and audio recordings are from the same device.

IMO

Pretty certain that both the audio and the video came from the same security cam at 1112 King Road. JMO

 

[otto]

This is my suspicion, too, heightened when others here speculated that BK wrapped the knife after murdering Xana and Ethan, making it impossible to access immediately.

IMO

It all falls into place.

The plan was to either assault and murder Maddie in her bedroom, or to kidnap her and assault/murder her at an isolated location. Perhaps he wanted to start a killing field - similar to Ted Bundy.

He entered the house undetected through the unlocked kitchen patio-door (lock was already broken). Did he know the lock was broken? Had he damaged it during an earlier visit? Does the date of the damaged lock correspond to cell phone data placing him at the property?

He went upstairs and entered Maddie's bedroom. His knife was sheathed. He did not expect two women, so the plan went wrong immediately. He pulled the knife from the sheath, dropped the sheath on the bed during the frenzied attack.

He heard Xana calling or coming up the stairs. He ran after her, murdered her as she entered her bedroom. Then he murdered Ethan, taking time for unnecessary cuts. He paused to think. Did he sit for a moment? Probably wondered whether the murders were too noisy.

He must have decided to look for the sheath, and headed towards the stairs. At the bottom of the stairs, he saw the fourth female standing still at her slightly open bedroom door. He said something like "I'm going to help you."

Was he pretending to be police? Did he assume that police were already on their way? Did he abandon the sheath because he didn't want to get caught in the upstairs bedroom when police arrived? Did he leave the witness alive because he was afraid that taking time to murder her might leave him standing at the patio door when police arrived?

He drove away at high speed, and might have gone to the location where he intended to take Maddie.


Floorplans: I added the numbers

https://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/state/idaho/article271013167.html

 

[otto]

Too bad Xana didn't run out the patio door instead of back to her bedroom! Kohberger would have gone after her and she may have gotten away, especially if she ran to the frat houses. Regardless, it would have made a bigger mess of the Kohberger's plan.

 

[technicallymissing]

Too bad Xana didn't run out the patio door instead of back to her bedroom! Kohberger would have gone after her and she may have gotten away, especially if she ran to the frat houses. Regardless, it would have made a bigger mess of the Kohberger's plan.

Ugh, I had that thought watching Dateline too. It does make sense to me that she ran to her room, probably thinking either she could lock her door or wake up Ethan for help but it’s sooo hard to watch the Dateline reconstruction of the path through the house LE thinks BK chased her and not just desperately wish you could shout out for her to run out the slider instead! There’s definitely no guarantee it would have changed anything, but I hated watching the reconstruction and hearing about how he cornered her in her room. So, so tragic and awful for that poor girl and just insanely terrifying to imagine.

 

[Kudzuu]

The more I look at the layout considering that Xana may have been in the living room eating she probably shut the sliding glass door. BK came in a few minutes later and went up stairs to target Maddie. Xana feels the draft after a bit and realizes " someone is here". 4:12 Xana on TicTok. Then she takes off her ear plugs and starts up the steps to see who is there. Maybe KG's ex.

Meanwhile DM is directly below Maddie's room and opens the door but sees nobody.


It's probably 4:13 now. DM has closed the door.

Xana may have been spooked by the noise in Maddie's room and runs towards her room to wake up Ethan but BK sees her and follows her. He may not have intended to go there but seeing Xana fleeing he chases her down and attacks her in the doorway. 4:17:33 - 4:17:35 whimpering or voices. 4:17:40 Thud.

Unknown time DM opens the door and peeks through the crack and sees BK walk right past her into the kitchen.
4:19:07 to 4:21:50 DM CALLS everyone in the house. BF, XK, KG, MM. No one answers .
4:17:53 13 seconds later dog barking is recorded on camera. (I think BK is out of the house)

18 seconds later 4:22:08 DM texts BF No one is answering
I'm rlly confused rn
4:20:45 BK's car lights are caught on camera followed by his car.
DM and BF exchange texts and DM runs down to her room.

I'm now wondering if BK had no intention of killing Xana and Ethan. But he has his second surprise of the night.
Everyone in the house was incapacitated by 4:19 or earlier.
IMO

How does the latent footprint tie into this? Iirc as he left after killing XK and EC most likely. She was on the floor bleeding out and we know BK sat down. There was a lot of blood but there
Isn't any footprints anywhere else ?

That puzzles me . I haven't watch the dateline documentary. Am I close to what they reported?


EBM