4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #107

[snooptroop88]

I really appreciate how people here are willing to push back on the seeming established narrative of the murders. Those of you old enough to remember the murders of Sharon Tatte and her friend will know that the prosecutor, Vincent Bugliosi, argued for a shocking motive for those killings, laid out both in court and in his book Helter Skelter. His argument was that Manson wanted to start a race war, thought that the Beatles song was a coded message and Cielo Drive was chosen because Manson had a grudge against a previous occupant, Terry Melcher. A 2019 book offers another theory, that Manson was involved in drug dealing that led to murders, and the Tate-LaBianca killings were done to distract attention from the other killings more directly connected to Manson.

I'm not going to offer an opinion on Manson, but I want to point out the prosecutors need a theory of the crime when the go to court, especially if the crimes are both senseless to ordinary people and sensational. In this case, one theory could be that BK was obsessed with one of the women and the others in the house were either collateral damage (potential) witnesses or victims of a frenzy. Another theory could be that BK fixed on the house as a place where he could mass murder young attractive women, as Ted Bundy did, in which case he may or may have identified a particular woman he hoped to kill. The prosecution will have to settle on a story to tell the jury to help them make sense of what is a crime that is primarily about what I see as one person's psychopathy and evil. So I don't think we are going to get "the truth" about these killings from the trial; we're going to get a story that the prosecution believes in and can use to convict BK. And of course we will never learn the truth from the killer. Manson, Chris Watt, and a whole slew of serial killers have lied about what they did and why.

I love, love, love this post. I happened to be up and had to comment on it. I agree with every single word in here.

JMO of course, but spot on!

 

[minazoe]

don't forget Richard Speck.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I think a list was within the assignment guidelines and the professor was essentially grading to see if students knew the crime scene protocols, hence the A. That said, at the advanced undergrad level, students should also know how to structure a list, and a top effort should be logically organized and not lapse into first person story telling or refer to a victim as "the woman." What I gleaned from reading the list as a document is that the writer grasps information but has trouble with higher-level thinking, putting things in sequence, and representing what he knows from an objective POV. A common failing of such assignments is not maintaining parallel structure for the list, something BK might not have been taught but in a top criminal justice class hoping to prepare law enforcement officers is very important because police reports, especially for major crimes, have to be admissible in court. This would not earn an undergraduate A at my small, non-elite university.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

don't forget Richard Speck.

Yes, indeed. [Book: "The Crime of the Century," Dennis Breo and William J, Martin]

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I love, love, love this post. I happened to be up and had to comment on it. I agree with every single word in here.

JMO of course, but spot on!

I added some book recs on Manson and cleaned up typos so check that out. But thanks for the kind words.

 

[MeadowMuffin]

MOO Could have been dug in summer. A hidden hole for his stuff, in a tree line or back of a pullout, safe from plows with board and dirt on top. Winter snow would cover till spring.

Totally agree.

He HAD to hide the knife (in his mind), IMO he'd want to come back later to "visit" it, caress it, whatevs. His primo trophy. I think he buried it. The clothes and mask he could just throw in some dumpster. If he'd been planning since March when he bought the KaBar, that hole would have been dug much earlier, and dumpsters surveilled so he would know if he should use a black trash bag or a white one, presence of security cams, traffic and foot traffic, etc.

Here is a link to an instructable, for those not familiar with PVC piping.
How BK may have hidden his Ka-Bar

 

[LetsSolvIt]

Yes, I hope they did!

Also, was there a 15-minute gap both on the way to Moscow and on the way out?

If so, he may have used such a time gap before the murders to dress, lay down protective covering for his car, and check his murder kit. He couldn’t have done this in Pullman, which I assume has cameras everywhere (like in Moscow).

After the murders, I agree that he would use the time gap to bury the evidence in a pre-dug hole. In addition, his OCD would likely compel him to check and recheck that no incriminating evidence remained in his car or on his body. He wouldn’t have been able to wait, plus he had to prepare in case he was pulled over.

What do you think BK did during the second period that his phone didn’t report to the network (from 5:36 pm to 8:30 pm on November 13)?

Perhaps the pre-dug hole was temporary, and BK returned to the hole later that day so he could more permanently dispose of everything in the Snake River.

I don’t know why he couldn’t just go to the Snake River immediately after the murders. He may have felt compelled to check his planned disposal site in daylight before returning in darkness.

IMO

Just to throw out something else: maybe the contraband “dump” wasn’t so quick?

Certainly BK and dad made a couple stops on way back East. If BK’s insomnia behavior is normal, his dad wouldn’t have thought it strange for BK to leave the hotel at night to star gaze or drive around (and dump the knife and clothes somewhere far from the crime area). Easy to say, “Dad, don’t want to disturb your sleep, I’m going out to star gaze and unwind until I get tired.”

My sons keep misc gym bags and clutter in the back cargo areas of their cars so if we were packing up for a trip I wouldn’t think twice about something like that among their real travel luggage. A gym bag would be a perfect temporary cover for a commercial grade black trash bag containing contraband. Only a random alternative thought!

 

[Megnut]

Do we have a running list of assertions made by AT that have t-boned?

Wasn't driving "over there"
Wasn't stopping.
Wasn't stalking (no, but 23 times.... whatever it was)
Can't tie his shoelaces or make 5s as an adult
Doesn't have bushy eyebrows
DM is inconsistent, memory unreliable
He has a partial alibi
Sy Ray
He has a partial TODDI
Other male DNA exonerates BK
LE/email war of years on the Elantra
Clean car exonerates BK
Feeble, clumsy

I'm starting to wonder if she'll put on a defense. It's not required. She may have to rely on cross-examination and hope a juror mistakes passion and indignation for reasonable doubt.

JMO

 

[LetsSolvIt]

Thankful others on here are kind of fluid on this important point because I am, too. The "carving" aspect of this really, really is particularly gruesome, and I'm sort of wondering about that.

BK's a misogynist but he obviously harbored great hatred towards his male victim as well. And thinking about this, he did attack that house that night, where a male/EC was known to be often. But I'm fairly certain had BK wanted to avoid conflict with the male victim, he could have done so. He could simply have made sure he came on a night when EC was not there. I'm guessing EC wasn't at that house every single night. Now, maybe he was, but if he wasn't (just hypothetically speaking), that would be BK's chance to pounce and heighten his chances of avoiding conflict with any other male at all. And BK's into Bundy, I know there was talk of Bundy possibly having male victim/s. I'm going with the traditional interpretation that ALL of Bundy's victims were females. If BK's into Bundy, I don't know why he put himself in a situation where he's quite possibly going to be encountering a male.

So jmo, this can go in a lot of directions at this point. I hope we learn a lot more, and I'm sure we will. Agreeing with those still watching on the restaurant where the victims worked, am watching to see if BK ever visited that restaurant. The guy running out for Thai food with Dad seems like the type to me that would be aware of that restaurant. JMO, he was there. Also buying into the idea being loated with possible disposal of knife in Snake River.

If he's a Bundy fan, better have him shackled up but good because Bundy escaped twice, if memory serves me correctly.

No law library for you, BK!!!

This really isn’t an important point but … Your reference to the Thai restaurant (mentioned in Indiana to LE) made me think of BK’s rigid veganism. Remember he insisted his aunt buy a second set of cookware that was never to be used for meat to prepare his meals?

Wasn’t the place where the girls waited tables the predominate (or only) vegan restaurant around the universities? What the heck did BK do there and also while traveling? Asking at every eatery if they only used pans untouched by meats until he found a place suitable? Are they using special pots for his food in jail? His veganism seems like a form of controlling others. OMO.

 

[Megnut]

Just to throw out something else: maybe the contraband “dump” wasn’t so quick?

Certainly BK and dad made a couple stops on way back East. If BK’s insomnia behavior is normal, his dad wouldn’t have thought it strange for BK to leave the hotel at night to star gaze or drive around (and dump the knife and clothes somewhere far from the crime area). Easy to say, “Dad, don’t want to disturb your sleep, I’m going out to star gaze and unwind until I get tired.”

My sons keep misc gym bags and clutter in the back cargo areas of their cars so if we were packing up for a trip I wouldn’t think twice about something like that among their real travel luggage. A gym bag would be a perfect temporary cover for a commercial grade black trash bag containing contraband. Only a random alternative thought!

Hard to fathom he'd still have evidence TO dispose of, but... he took a very odd route back to PA. He must have had a reason. Perhaps he was pitching personal items all along the way. Maybe, like BarryMorphew, he's drawn to other people's dumpsters. Bedding, sheets, shower curtains, Big Mac, filet of fish, quarter pounder, French fries...

He was doing everything in his power to protect his DNA, IMO. All for naught. He was sitting next to the very DNA that would ultimately single him out.

JMO

 

[Arkay]

I’m not steadfast on any theory, really, because I don’t know Bryan and I wasn’t there.

In my gut, though, I still feel it was more likely than not that Maddie was indeed his primary objective.

One, because we know he’d been to the Mad Greek where Maddie worked. Even if she didn’t wait on him, even if they never interacted, only he knows if glancing at her awoke some private obsession.

Two, because IMO and certainly I may be completely mistaken, but I think Maddie and Kaylee both were more flashy looking than Xana, God rest her. They both appeared to have dyed their hair blonde, because in their younger pictures they were both brunettes, IIRC.

Yet Kaylee had moved out, and her car was new, so I can’t be certain that he’d know Kaylee would be there.

Or maybe this is all wrong, because if he were a blonde obsessive, he could’ve hunted down and killed the surviving roommates who were also blonde, although I believe by then his energy was spent and he was in some sort of trance.

Or it may be as some of us thought at the start—the visibility and accessibility of the house.

It still just feels to me as though he was aiming for Maddie’s room. Unfortunately Kaylee was snuggled up in the same bed with her best friend; also unfortunately Xana was awake and combative, Ethan would be combative as well, so he killed the other three because they were in his way and became collateral damage.

Or not. Maybe killing one of them aroused his bloodlust and he killed everyone he had in his sight, and was unfocused and trying to escape by the time DM opened her door.

I don’t know and no one knows except BK. My hope is that he does take a plea in which he confesses and explains.

Just my rambling thoughts.

 

[LetsSolvIt]

I always pictured BK as having dug or selected the location of his kill kit disposal beforehand. He had a small shovel in his car, not the kind for shoveling snow. Again, I think his poor driving skills and VSS (if he did in fact have it) was the reason he even brought his phone at all.

A CJ student would know having your phone is 'How to get caught 101'. I think he needed the phone to navigate the back roads where he disposed of the evidence.

JMO

I’m wondering if his lack of sleep is one reason he exhibited poor driving skills. If he was always out running and star gazing at night, and had class commitments during the day, when did he sleep?

 

[Megnut]

I’m wondering if his lack of sleep is one reason he exhibited poor driving skills. If he was always out running and star gazing at night, and had class commitments during the day, when did he sleep?

And probably thought his insomnia was his super power.

JMO

 

[otto]

Hard to fathom he'd still have evidence TO dispose of, but... he took a very odd route back to PA. He must have had a reason. Perhaps he was pitching personal items all along the way. Maybe, like BarryMorphew, he's drawn to other people's dumpsters. Bedding, sheets, shower curtains, Big Mac, filet of fish, quarter pounder, French fries...

He was doing everything in his power to protect his DNA, IMO. All for naught. He was sitting next to the very DNA that would ultimately single him out.

JMO

I liked the suggestion way upthread that he initially planned to kidnap Maddie to spend uninterrupted time with her, as Bundy did when he abducted some of his victims. He may have planned to start his own killing field, like Bundy. The long route was part of the initial plan to that possible killing field - so he followed through on that part of the plan even though the plan didn't work?

It's also possible that his plan was nothing more than home invasion, mass murder, and leave - taking the long route home to confuse investigators into believing that he was not at the house.

 

[SteveP]

This really isn’t an important point but … Your reference to the Thai restaurant (mentioned in Indiana to LE) made me think of BK’s rigid veganism. Remember he insisted his aunt buy a second set of cookware that was never to be used for meat to prepare his meals?

Wasn’t the place where the girls waited tables the predominate (or only) vegan restaurant around the universities? What the heck did BK do there and also while traveling? Asking at every eatery if they only used pans untouched by meats until he found a place suitable? Are they using special pots for his food in jail? His veganism seems like a form of controlling others. OMO.

I am sure that one of the locals here can offer better insight, but The Mad Greek was not a vegan restaurant. It was a Greek/Mediterranean restaurant that offered a vegan pizza and falafel, along with all of their other menu selections. There were, in Nov, 2022, and are now, several vegan-friendly restaurants in the Moscow-Pullman area. The Mad Greek popped up in the number one spot of Google searches of area vegan restaurants, shortly after the murders, BECAUSE of people like us, searching the Mad Greek, in all likelihood.

Btw, The Mad Greek closed, permanently, in early August, 2024. Could they have been yet another victim of BK, or just another victim of the economy and times, like so many other businesses? JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

This really isn’t an important point but … Your reference to the Thai restaurant (mentioned in Indiana to LE) made me think of BK’s rigid veganism. Remember he insisted his aunt buy a second set of cookware that was never to be used for meat to prepare his meals?

Wasn’t the place where the girls waited tables the predominate (or only) vegan restaurant around the universities? What the heck did BK do there and also while traveling? Asking at every eatery if they only used pans untouched by meats until he found a place suitable? Are they using special pots for his food in jail? His veganism seems like a form of controlling others. OMO.

I don't believe the restaurant that Xana and Maddie worked at was predominately vegan, I think they only offered a few vegan choices. I'd guess the area of Pullman/Moscow was not overly populated with Vegan establishments. Give those kids Taco Bell, Jack In The Box, Pizza, cheap and easy. LOL

It was said the BK visited the Moscow campus on multiple occasions. Why I wonder? Looking, watching, fantasizing? Not wanting to be seen on the prowl in Pullman? He was a TA so he would have probably been more recognizable at UW.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I am sure that one of the locals here can offer better insight, but The Mad Greek was not a vegan restaurant. It was a Greek/Mediterranean restaurant that offered a vegan pizza and falafel, along with all of their other menu selections. There were, in Nov, 2022, and are now, several vegan-friendly restaurants in the Moscow-Pullman area. The Mad Greek popped up in the number one spot of Google searches of area vegan restaurants, shortly after the murders, BECAUSE of people like us, searching the Mad Greek, in all likelihood.

Btw, The Mad Greek closed, permanently, in early August, 2024. Could they have been yet another victim of BK, or just a victim of the economy and times, like so many other businesses? JMO

We were on the same wave length there. I responded before I read your post, as I try to read them in order.

 

[girlhasnoname]

While I agree that AT needs to mount a vigorous defence for her client, pulling a name out of a hat, two and a half years after the fact, and trying to pin the murder of 4 people on some other dude, without evidence (if this is what is occurring), is appalling.

At least Perry Mason and Matlock had evidence to put the “real” bad guy behind bars.

We saw this tactic with Delphi and now here. Mollie Tibbetts as well to a degree.

When does openly accusing an innocent person for a crime so heinous, with no evidence whatsoever, become a crime in itself?

In non legal terms IMO these are outright lies and I despise this manoeuvre.

MOO

I dislike this too, but Hammer Hippler will make sure there is a Nexus and some validity or he won't allow it to come in. He doesn't suffer fools lightly.

JMO

 

[jepop]

I dislike this too, but Hammer Hippler will make sure there is a Nexus and some validity or he won't allow it to come in. He doesn't suffer fools lightly.

JMO

Yes,! And in the pre trial stage for any potential TODDI candidates the defense tries to put up, the related motions, state responses and hearing ( if it even happens,) will be sealed for privacy reasons. Just as the TODDI material has been so far. Jmo

 

[DisplacedDivaofthe6C]

MOO Could have been dug in summer. A hidden hole for his stuff, in a tree line or back of a pullout, safe from plows with board and dirt on top. Winter snow would cover till spring.

Well there would have been crops growing and the field would be harvested later in the summer. If the ground was fallow a big hole would be pretty obvious. Also, he'd have to park on the road and then walk pretty far into a field to dig. Knowing how farmers literally know every inch of their grounds and that includes areas left for a few trees, etc. I just don't think he'd be successful to hide those things in a hole pre-dug.