4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #107

[Sachi]

Missing some of my favorite members who post here, hope they re-enter the conversation soon!

 

[otto]

They say that Brian first went to Maddie's room, but how do we really know that? He could have gone to Kaylee's room first, opened the door, or peeked into the slightly open door, saw she wasn't there, and then went over to Maddie's room to check for her. I doubt there would be any forensic evidence to show that or not.

We know that Kohberger went directly upstairs based on witness testimony.

We know when Kohberger arrived at the residence based on CCTV. One of the witnesses said that the disturbance started with what she believed to be Kaylee playing with her dog (upstairs). We now know that was the attack on Maddie and Kaylee. The witness then heard "there's someone here". She thought it was Kaylee, but, based on Xana's online activity, investigators believe it was Xana.

Kaylee was not the target because she no longer lived there. Ethan was not a target because he did not live there. We know what happened based on evidence that has been released.

It's all here:

122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne Seeking Arrest of Bryan C. Kohberger

www.documentcloud.org

 

[MassGuy]

Well, no but a couple of things lead more credence to the Maddie theory instead of Kaylee
1. Maddie was the window that was visible from where Kohberger was parking during his drive-by
2. Maddie was the first one he killed
3. Kaylee wasn't even supposed to be there as per her parents. She had already mostly moved out and was preparing to leave for Texas for her new job.

I find it highly unlikely that Bryan would have known that Kaylee was there and most of all that she'd be there that day.

I think the evidence supports that as well:

I think her presence threw him off his game, which is why he forgot the sheath (and possibly why he put it down in the first place).

I think he was angry she was there because she ruined his fantasy. This may have been why she has blunt force injuries in addition to stab wounds (it could have also been done out of practicality, or a mix).

 

[gremlin444]

After the Dateline episode, I've seen the debate about whether or not BK had ever been in the house before pop up again.

For me, I'm torn.

I feel certain he didn't crash a party at their house. His staring and general stiff manner would have made him stand out--he would have been noticed. When his picture was put up post-arrest, that would spark memories from party-goers. As the anecdotes from the pool party show, he's not good at being inconspicuous.

Sneaking in at some time everyone was out of the house? Given his nocturnal roamings (esp those discussed on tapatalk) and the information we have on escalation of crimes (to clarify, not his crimes..but the escalation of crimes for serial killers), that does feel right.

But the thing that makes me hesitate at that being likely is this--it's going to be difficult to find a time when everyone is out of the house. Look at the evening before they were killed--yes they were all out during the evening, but leaving at different times and coming home at different times...none of which would be predictable. He couldn't use the presence of cars or not in the house's parking lot out front as a reliable indicator of vacancy due to the fact that the girls wouldn't need to drive to go to Sigma Chi or the sororities. Even when going to Corner Club that night, Maddie and Kaylee didn't drive (it doesn't say how they got there, but given that they used the ride service to get home and their cars were at the house, it seems they caught a ride there as well). He'd have to sit for hours monitoring the house, and even then he'd only be able to see one exit door at a time.

During the day, you could hope there would be a time when they'd all be at classes, but that's pretty tricky too. Not to mention, lots more people around during the day coming in and out of that apartment building parking lot who could notice him slipping down the back embankment or approaching the house from out front. Plus BK should be doing his TA work, going to his classes, and having office hours.

Not saying he couldn't have found a time to sneak in when they were all gone, but it wouldn't be easy and would be highly risky.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

I think the evidence supports that as well:

I think her presence threw him off his game, which is why he forgot the sheath (and possibly why he put it down in the first place).

I think he was angry she was there because she ruined his fantasy. This may have been why she has blunt force injuries in addition to stab wounds (it could have also been done out of practicality, or a mix).

Yeah I hear that a lot, but how did K ruin his fantasy? He could have dispatched Kaylee quickly and then have all his time with Maddie. If he were quiet nobody would have known. First of all he knew Kaylee was there because he heard the dog bark. If he thought Kaylee would ruin his plans, he would have left after he heard the dog bark. I think he went for Maddie first cuz he wanted to get rid of Maddie so he can have his time with Kaylee. But Kaylee fought back too loudly.

 

[DizzyB]

Well, no but a couple of things lead more credence to the Maddie theory instead of Kaylee
1. Maddie was the window that was visible from where Kohberger was parking during his drive-by
2. Maddie was the first one he killed
3. Kaylee wasn't even supposed to be there as per her parents. She had already mostly moved out and was preparing to leave for Texas for her new job.

I find it highly unlikely that Bryan would have known that Kaylee was there and most of all that she'd be there that day.

Unless he had seen the Instagram post or had been watching the FudTruck feed. I don’t think he was, though. I’m still amazed that he attacked the house with so many vehicles parked in the lot, a DoorDasher that had just left, and so many people possibly awake or just falling asleep. Online sleuths looked at everybody in the beginning, tracking their whereabouts and tossing around theories. Nothing fit until the right suspect was found and identified. All of the pieces fell into place. It’s him.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

@PunishThenForgive

Can you explain "incel-type mass murderers"?

Also, how he presented to you as one? What in the Dateline episode made you change your mind?

I'm reading the I 5 Killer and between that, P Diddy and this case my mind is working overtime. Randall Woodfield was a deviant and couldn't seem to have a normal sexual relationship. And the mother! Lots of serial killers have issues with women due to their mother's WTH.

I'm thinking BK has mommy issues too. Maybe some physical issues as well.

Moo

Quote Reply

I mean the ones who identified as incels and wrote manifestos. Elliot Rodger comes to mind.

BK’s sense of superiority, his social awkwardness and isolation, his lack of (enduring) success with women and resulting rage towards them—these made me think of a violent incel.

BK didn’t write a manifesto, though, and he likely targeted only one person (Maddie).

I also didn’t realize BK was obsessed with Ted Bundy until I watched the May 9 Dateline episode.

I was exhausted that night and kept nodding off, so I came away from the episode thinking that TB must be BK’s “special interest” whom he admired and wished to someday emulate so he, too, could be as notorious to the plebes (us) and as admired by other superior, twisted souls such as he.

But then I re-watched the Dateline episode a couple of days ago while wide-awake, and I started thinking that BK is obsessed with Bundy because he identifies with him. He doesn’t aspire to someday be as great as Bundy. He already is Bundy, psychologically.

IMO Kohberger was studying particular serial killers so he could understand himself, and maybe so he could pick up a few tips for his next murder.

 

[MassGuy]

After the Dateline episode, I've seen the debate about whether or not BK had ever been in the house before pop up again.

For me, I'm torn.

I feel certain he didn't crash a party at their house. His staring and general stiff manner would have made him stand out--he would have been noticed. When his picture was put up post-arrest, that would spark memories from party-goers. As the anecdotes from the pool party show, he's not good at being inconspicuous.

Sneaking in at some time everyone was out of the house? Given his nocturnal roamings (esp those discussed on tapatalk) and the information we have on escalation of crimes, that does feel right.

But the thing that makes me hesitate at that being likely is this--it's going to be difficult to find a time when everyone is out of the house. Look at the evening before they were killed--yes they were all out during the evening, but leaving at different times and coming home at different times...none of which would be predictable. He couldn't use the presence of cars or not in the house's parking lot out front as a reliable indicator of vacancy due to the fact that the girls wouldn't need to drive to go to Sigma Chi or the sororities. Even when going to Corner Club that night, Maddie and Kaylee didn't drive (it doesn't say how they got there, but given that they used the ride service to get home and their cars were at the house, it seems they caught a ride there as well). He'd have to sit for hours monitoring the house, and even then he'd only be able to see one exit door at a time.

During the day, you could hope there would be a time when they'd all be at classes, but that's pretty tricky too. Not to mention, lots more people around during the day coming in and out of that apartment building parking lot who could notice him slipping down the back embankment or approaching the house from out front. Plus BK should be doing his TA work, going to his classes, and having office hours.

Not saying he couldn't have found a time to sneak in when they were all gone, but it wouldn't be easy and would be highly risky.

If he didn't enter the house prior, I do think it's likely he had at least tried the door. He would have had a firm entry and exit plan, and I just think it's more probable than not that he covered his bases here. His computer data apparently has a black hole beginning a day earlier than it should, so I have to wonder if he did a bit of a dry run on the previous night.

I'm concerned law enforcement didn't pull enough video at the time though, perhaps not starting early enough.

 

[MassGuy]

Yeah I hear that a lot, but how did K ruin his fantasy? He could have dispatched Kaylee quickly and then have all his time with Maddie. If he were quiet nobody would have known. First of all he knew Kaylee was there because he heard the dog bark. If he thought Kaylee would ruin his plans, he would have left after he heard the dog bark. I think he went for Maddie first cuz he wanted to get rid of Maddie so he can have his time with Kaylee. But Kaylee fought back too loudly.

I believe he attacked Maddie first, which explains the extreme injuries to Kaylee. He wouldn't have been able to take his time with Maddie, because she'd run the risk of screaming. He'd go for the person closest to him who posed the greatest risk (probably Maddie), and then target the one furthest away.

KG being there screwed up the plan because the logistics called for Maddie to be dispatched first.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

One reason for him not to try to get in the house or try the door is that if someone was at home, he would be identified and remembered once the police started an investigation after the murders.

But BK did a lot of other stupid things so it's possible.

 

[fcavanaugh]

That's true it will have to be more than him just saying that someone else was involved.

On the other hand, I direct you to the past case of Caylee Anthony. Everyone thought that was a slam dunk case too. Where she was on trial for murdering her little daughter by taping her mouth and suffocating her and then dumping the body in woods near their house. But the defense brought up a whole scenario that Caylee's father sexually abused caylee and that caylee's little daughter accidentally drowned in the pool and caylee was afraid of her father and that's why she never told anybody. And there was no evidence to support that, it was completely made up. And it worked. Caylee got off the charges. So if it worked in that case, who's to say it won't work in this case? He already has a bunch of pro burgers out there.

Yes I’m aware of the case. Caylee Anthony was the poor little child victim though, and Casey Anthony (I don’t even like typing the name) was Caylee’s Mother, and yes Casey was acquitted at trial. I have my thoughts on that case but don’t want to derail the thread.

Stating the obvious, all cases are different and I understand that sometimes what appears to be a “slam dunk case” to many in the court of public opinion doesn’t always equate to being so once judicial proceedings commence.
I personally refrain from referring to cases as slam dunk before judicial proceedings begin because nothing is guaranteed and due to unforeseen circumstances/variables to include the following:
P and D case presentation and strategy, P and D experience, skill and competency levels’, new evidence potentially presented, Judge’s rulings etc, etc.
Once the case gets to trial stage, all the above applies with a new and very important factor entering judicial proceedings- a seated Jury, which imo no one can know what any given Jury will decide once the P and D rest their respective cases and Jury deliberations commence.

What I will say about what I’ve seen and read in this case’s judicial proceedings so far is the P team is solid, thorough, confident and based on known evidence so far, have a very strong case against BK.
The D team is solid doing their jobs to defend their client and ensure he receives due process to the best of their ability considering in lead counsel AT’s own words (paraphrased) BK is difficult to work with, filing motions challenging state’s evidence attempting to get incriminating evidence thrown out pretrial etc., I have to say though, AT hasn’t impressed me with her arguments in front of the court/Judge in the most recent hearings. She seems ill prepared and almost stumbling over her words.
Also not impressed with AT saying she needs more time to go through voluminous discovery after 2.5 years, deciding not to hire extra help to do so, meanwhile she took on another high profile DP case while she’s still working this high profile DP case that she hasn’t had time to go through all discovery. Doesn’t make any sense to me, illogical, unproductive, and a disservice to her client.

As far as Judge Hippler, I’ve been very impressed with him so far. He’s no nonsense, reasonable, fair, explains his rulings and reasonings both verbal and written clearly, holds both sides accountable in the interests of due process and imo he’s made well clear in his ruling last week, D needs to submit substantive evidence to the court by this Friday for their alternative perp proffer and he will rule in or out pretrial if the D does in fact submit any material by Friday. IMO Judge Hippler is way ahead of the game so to speak and will not be allowing any shenanigans during trial like D offering up a whole new theory and trying to throw an innocent person under the bus at trial. Lastly, barring unforeseen circumstances, Judge Hippler seems intent on keeping the case on track and trial to commence as scheduled on August 11th, which I really hope it does stay on track for that date as the poor families’ have waited long enough.

#JusticeforKaylee,Maddie,Xana,and Ethan

IMHOO

ETA-punctuation

 

[concernedcitizen706]

I believe he attacked Maddie first, which explains the extreme injuries to Kaylee. He wouldn't have been able to take his time with Maddie, because she'd run the risk of screaming. He'd go for the person closest to him who posed the greatest risk (probably Maddie), and then target the one furthest away.

KG being there screwed up the plan because the logistics called for Maddie to be dispatched first.

Then why did he go into Maddie's room when he heard Kaylee's dog bark? He heard Kaylee's dog bark but he didn't see Kaylee in the room, so he must have figured she was in Maddie's room. You know I bet they did not sleep with their doors closed, because they figured no one would come up there, so he could see from the hallway. Also they were both sleeping, he could have just left when he saw them both in there. And try some other night.

No I'm going to have to agree to disagree. He could go any night he wanted to, to get Maddie,p she still lived there and still waitressed at the restaurant. But he knew from social media that Kaylee left and she's not coming back. It was his last ditch attempt to get Kaylee. Actually I believe he wanted to get all three, plus Ethan, so it was his last ditch attempt to get all three. BK wanted fame power and revenge, he wasn't in love with them lol.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

I believe he attacked Maddie first, which explains the extreme injuries to Kaylee. He wouldn't have been able to take his time with Maddie, because she'd run the risk of screaming. He'd go for the person closest to him who posed the greatest risk (probably Maddie), and then target the one furthest away.

KG being there screwed up the plan because the logistics called for Maddie to be dispatched first.

They were in a twin bed. It wouldn't take too much more effort to get Kaylee first, she was right next to Maddie. Just lean over a little more. He just gave Maddie a peaceful stab and finished her off. That doesn't sound like he was obsessed with his encounter with her. He reserved his rage for Kaylee. I believe he left her second, because he wanted to spend more time on her.

Anyway none of this matters. Kaylee or Maddie or Xana, it does not matter. Seems like all anybody is interested in is debating this.

 

[MassGuy]

Then why did he go into Maddie's room when he heard Kaylee's dog bark? He heard Kaylee's dog bark but he didn't see Kaylee in the room, so he must have figured she was in Maddie's room. You know I bet they did not sleep with their doors closed, because they figured no one would come up there, so he could see from the hallway. Also they were both sleeping, he could have just left when he saw them both in there. And try some other night.

No I'm going to have to agree to disagree. He could go any night he wanted to, to get Maddie,p she still lived there and still waitressed at the restaurant. But he knew from social media that Kaylee left and she's not coming back. It was his last ditch attempt to get Kaylee. Actually I believe he wanted to get all three, plus Ethan, so it was his last ditch attempt to get all three. BK wanted fame power and revenge, he wasn't in love with them lol.

That barking was later, around the time Xana and Ethan were being murdered (or shortly after).

He wasn't leaving that night without committing the murders. He didn't come that far just to walk out and try again.

There is no evidence he knew anything from social media; no connection has ever been established.

 

[SortaSleuthy]

There must be a lot more vehicle evidence that we will hear about during trial.

I think the prosecution will argue that Maddie was the target. Kaylee was killed because she was unexpectedly in Maddie's bedroom. Xana was killed because she made the killer aware that she was awake and possibly coming up the stairs. Ethan was murdered because Xana ran to him when she discovered an intruder.

It doesn't really matter whether Kohberger intended to kill one person, or several people. All that can be proven is that he intended to kill Maddie, and three others were murdered because they became aware of his intentions.

I don’t think the prosecution will deal with “the target” since they can’t prove it and don’t need to prove it in order to get a conviction. He killed four people. It is interesting to speculate about this but we will never know for sure .. unless BK makes a spontaneous confession.

 

[Ghostwheel]

What if BK didn't know who was in what room?

ITA that there is no evidence that the house at 1122 King Rd ever had ring cameras.

However, IIRC the security camera at 1112 King was removed. Does anyone else remember that?

I see two porch lamps but no security camera in the photo of the house on Zillow:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1112-King-Rd-Moscow-ID-83843/2085410319_zpid/

The photo isn’t dated, though. @gremlin444, what do you think?

Does anyone know why LE would take a security camera? Of course, it could have been removed by a graduating senior who had installed it herself.

Still catching up, but the owners might have removed the camera to keep someone from stealing it thinking it might have something a curiosity seeker would like to see. Or... it could have just been stolen. Of course LE might have taken the whole thing, but I'm not sure why they would.

 

[Ghostwheel]

There are so many manifestations of people not believing the obvious:

1) Flat earthers.
2) Big Foot, Lock Ness Monster believers
3) Moon landing never happened

etc.

IMO, some people's inability to use deductive reasoning, insight, and critical thinking has been there all thru the ages. I used to argue with people about some of these things but it was a lost cause. I am just very thankful MOST of these people are not in a position of leadership when they can do more damage.

Wait, what? No Loch Ness Monster? I am crushed.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Speculation about plans beyond killing Maddie cannot be proven, therefore will not be mentioned.

It is proven that Maddie is the targeted victim because as soon as Kohberger entered the house through the kitchen door, he went straight to her bedroom. He brought a deadly knife that he intended to use, because he did do that. That much can be proven.

Kaylee had moved out, so Kohberger did not expect to find her in Maddie's bedroom. It's unlikely that he planned to kill her since she no longer lived there. She was a witness, so he killed her.

We know Xana was awake due to the food delivery. Xana was killed in the doorway, or near the doorway, of her bedroom. The roommate in the bedroom at the bottom of the stairs heard "someone's here."

Xana was killed as a witness. Because Ethan was in the bedroom where Xana was killed, Ethan was also killed to eliminate a witness.

That's all that can be proven, and who really cares whether the plan was to mass murder, or home invasion assault and murder one young female student. Kohberger wants us to believe he is a mastermind mass murderer, but why should we believe that?

Playing Devil's advocate here, how do we know that the killer knew the upstairs room was Maddie's or even cared if it was Maddie's? How do we know he didn't try DMs door, find it locked, then went upstairs to kill whoever was there? Everyone seems to assume he cased the house so much he knew everything about everyone, but what if he only knew it was a party house with only women in it and that was good enough?

A thought experiment.

 

[fcavanaugh]

He already has a bunch of pro burgers out there.

RSBMFF
Apologies, I meant to address your last sentence in previous reply and too late to edit.

I understand what you mean and concern about the possibility proberger gets on the Jury, also applies to those that are antibergers (is that even a term floating around the interwebs yet lol). My thoughts on that are we can only hope that people are honest in their self reporting during voir dire.

What I mean is, imo our judicial system relies in part, on people being honest in self reporting r/t even if they’ve heard of the case and/or follow the case and/or have formed an opinion one way or the other, can they be impartial if selected to sit on a Jury/decide the accused’s fate?

Of course there’s a lot more to the voir dire process than that and expected for this case will be a quite detailed, rigorous process, history proves there have been dishonest, unscrupulous people who have managed to get on a Jury and cause problems aka juror misconduct some of which ends up ceasing or or at the very least delaying trial proceedings, sadly and unfortunately. That’s if they’re even sussed out/caught which kinda scary thought if not. Anyhoo, these are also known as stealth jurors, links provided below, including a couple links (part 1, and part 2) r/t identifying stealth jurors during voir dire which I found very interesting and enlightening.

At any rate, we can only hope people are honest in self reporting during voir dire that they can be impartial if selected to sit on Jury and with that and the very rigorous voir dire expected in this case (iiuc Judge H is sequestering voir dire), will hopefully avoid any stealth jurors slipping by/getting on the Jury.

Stealth juror - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

How to Identify a Stealth Juror - Part 1 | Courtroom Sciences

Discover the concept of a 'stealth juror' - someone who hides their bias while pretending to be neutral. Learn how to identify and deal with these individuals during the jury selection process.

www.courtroomsciences.com

How to Identify a Stealth Juror - Part 2 | Courtroom Sciences

Discover the concept of a 'stealth juror' - someone who hides their bias while pretending to be neutral. Learn how to identify and deal with these individuals during the jury selection process.

www.courtroomsciences.com

#JusticeforKaylee,Maddie,Xana,and
Ethan

IMHOO

ETA-fixed link

 

[Sachi]

Playing Devil's advocate here, how do we know that the killer knew the upstairs room was Maddie's or even cared if it was Maddie's? How do we know he didn't try DMs door, find it locked, then went upstairs to kill whoever was there? Everyone seems to assume he cased the house so much he knew everything about everyone, but what if he only knew it was a party house with only women in it and that was good enough?

A thought experiment.

This has been mentioned before in a prior thread. Not everyone assumes he knew everything about everyone. Picked up what you're putting down!