4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #97

[girlhasnoname]

I feel in recent years, across many cases, attorney's have begun to veer towards a playing to a conspiratorial or just contrarian audience.

The defendant's right is to a robust defence and the defence attorneys shall make their filings for the judge. Yet increasingly that feels like that isn't the audience.

So sure the defence should make whatever constitutional/process argument they can about garbage seizure etc - but i don't really understand the rising tide of contrarianism over what seems to be standard police work.

MOO

But, but...the Tik Tokers, Instagrammers, YouTubers and Internet Cranks have said it is so. Therefore it must be. LOL

They do this at every big trial, but in the end, these murderers end up being found guilty 90% of the time with this much and type of evidence against them. Just like in the Delphi case.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

I've have a question. The wording by the defense...BBM


"The defense wants the court to suppress any evidence obtained by police during and after his arrest in Pennsylvania, arguing the warrant "lacked probable cause as written, given its heavy reliance on conclusions reached by law enforcement without the details necessary for the magistrate to draw its own conclusions."


First, why is the magistate being described as an "it" by the defense? A magistrate is an individual, a person not a thing or organization.

And then, why does the defense feel they have the right to decide what a magistrate needs to draw their own conclusions? If the magistrate felt there was an inefficiency placed before them, they wouldn't have ruled/signed until they were satisfied, no?

Bryan Kohberger's attorneys challenge use of evidence in U of I murder case

Bryan Kohberger's attorneys filed an array of motions challenging the submission of evidence in the University of Idaho murder trial. They claim evidence was "illegally gathered."

www.kivitv.com

From the link above:

"Mr. Kohberger requests this Court to suppress all evidence obtained by police via the warrant that permitted them to search his parents' home," the defense wrote in one of the motions. "Law enforcement failed to knock and announce before raiding the home, and the warrant lacked probable cause as written, given its heavy reliance on conclusions reached by law enforcement without the details necessary for the magistrate to draw its own conclusions [...] Any statements made by Mr. Kohberger are the fruit of the poisonous tree of the illegal arrest."

The documents allege Kohberger was zip-tied after a no-knock warrant was served at his parents' home in Pennsylvania, and was then surrounded by police at gunpoint.

"Law enforcement did not mirandize him immediately. Instead, they waited until after he was transported in a police car, handcuffed, with at least two officers in the car," the defense argued.

"Law enforcement failed to knock and announce before raiding the home..."

Of course they didn't knock----they were trying to arrest a potentially dangerous killer. His family was in there with him, and if he was suddenly aware of his imminent arrest, they could have been held hostage, OR he could have tried to shoot his family and himself.

The safest way to make that arrest was by surprise so he could not react aggressively.

"...the warrant lacked probable cause as written, given its heavy reliance on conclusions reached by law enforcement without the details necessary for the magistrate to draw its own conclusions "

I'm not understanding their point here---Isn't a PCA always heavily reliant upon LE conclusions, which are then read by the magistrate who draws their own conclusions? This complaint seems pretty flimsy and subjective, imo.

"The documents allege Kohberger was zip-tied after a no-knock warrant was served at his parents' home in Pennsylvania, and was then surrounded by police at gunpoint. "

So what? What would one expect to happen if they are being arrested for a violent quadruple murder? Could you imagine if he wasn't zip tied and held at gunpoint? What if he escaped and car jacked someone etc? LE would be heavily criticised if they had not taken those security measures.

 

[girlhasnoname]

This MTS argument was addressing the search of the parent's home and BKs statements prior to arrest. IMO the arrest warrant/search warrant/criminal complaint dates are included for the timing.

All exhibits are sealed.

No.
The MTS is for the Search warrant issued for BKs parent's home.

Yes.

No.
According to the D MTS Lamsden and the documents: First there was a search warrant of the home signed, then an arrest warrant in ID, then the home search warrant was executed, then a valid Criminal complaint was filed in PA.
Noting: the search warrant was issued/signed before either arrest warrant.

This is the list of documents in PA - I don't see a seperate FFJ warrant. I looked this up b/c you mentioned it in your first post and to confirm the date/time.

Commonwealth v. Kohberger 682 MD 2022​

Selected postings​

‌
Dec. 29, 2022 - Search warrant (Hyundai Elantra), inventory, exhibits
‌
Dec. 29, 2022 - Search warrant (B. Kohberger), inventory, exhibits
‌
Dec. 29, 2022 - Search warrant (home) and authorization
‌
Dec. 29 2022 - Kohberger warrant application
‌
Jan. 3, 2023 - Order (Returning defendant to Idaho) and Waiver of Extradition
‌
Jan. 2, 2023 - Decorum Order
‌
Jan. 2, 2023 - Administrative Order (1-AD-2023 in Case 5-CV- 2023)
‌
Dec. 30, 2022 - Police Criminal Complaint (Monroe County)

PA arrest warrant was valid. PA can arrest someone without a warrant if that someone has a DP charge as long as they bring them before the Court promptly to answer (Title 42 S9135) .

I think JL only mentioned this for the timing as it relates to the MTS home warrant.

JL issues in the Lamsden MTS:

Pennsylvania Law Enforcement Violated Mr. Kohberger’s Fourth Amendment Rights by Entering and Searching His Parents’ Home without a Valid Local Warrant.

a. The Idaho arrest warrant could not have given police in Pennsylvania the authority to enter the home.

He goes on to argue this issue in the MTS.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/2024/111424-REDACTED-Motion-Supress-Memorandum-Support-Lamsden-Statements.pdf

https://www.pacourts.us/Storage/med...022-policecriminalcomplaint(monroecounty).pdf

You posted this:

BBM

IDK if it is a strong or weak argument, but IMO JL was clear and there appears to be documentation supporting his issue argued in the MTS home search.
The P objection to this MTS was sealed.

JMO

RSBM for Focus:

IDK if it is a strong or weak argument, but IMO JL was clear and there appears to be documentation supporting his issue argued in the MTS home search.

I think Logsdon's argument here was weak and sarcastic.

Page 2 - Federal and PA LE conducted their raid basically because "we know he was in there and he owned a gun which is true of most Americas". Not accurate according to this study, less than half of households and approx a third of individuals.

<snipped>

46% of American households own at least one firearm according to a study by the University of Chicago. 32% of Americans say they personally own a firearm according to the 2021 National Firearms Survey. This means that more than 81.4 million Americans own guns. This number only includes adults over 18.

How Many Guns are in the US? [2024]

Page 3 - Police decided to do a no knock entry because "BK was wearing the same gloves millions of Americans wear to do the dishes". Not accurate that millions of people are wearing them while separating their personal garbage from the family garbage into ziplock bags and disposing of them in a neighbors trash bin in the middle of the night.

The No Knock entry was to protect all of the occupants of the home, and themselves, based on the unknown behavior of an accused quadruple murderer. I see this MTS being denied.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...Objection-Motion-Suppress-Memo-119Lamsden.pdf

JMO

 

[ilovewings]

From the link above:

"Mr. Kohberger requests this Court to suppress all evidence obtained by police via the warrant that permitted them to search his parents' home," the defense wrote in one of the motions. "Law enforcement failed to knock and announce before raiding the home, and the warrant lacked probable cause as written, given its heavy reliance on conclusions reached by law enforcement without the details necessary for the magistrate to draw its own conclusions [...] Any statements made by Mr. Kohberger are the fruit of the poisonous tree of the illegal arrest."

The documents allege Kohberger was zip-tied after a no-knock warrant was served at his parents' home in Pennsylvania, and was then surrounded by police at gunpoint.

"Law enforcement did not mirandize him immediately. Instead, they waited until after he was transported in a police car, handcuffed, with at least two officers in the car," the defense argued.

"Law enforcement failed to knock and announce before raiding the home..."

Of course they didn't knock----they were trying to arrest a potentially dangerous killer. His family was in there with him, and if he was suddenly aware of his imminent arrest, they could have been held hostage, OR he could have tried to shoot his family and himself.

The safest way to make that arrest was by surprise so he could not react aggressively.

"...the warrant lacked probable cause as written, given its heavy reliance on conclusions reached by law enforcement without the details necessary for the magistrate to draw its own conclusions "

I'm not understanding their point here---Isn't a PCA always heavily reliant upon LE conclusions, which are then read by the magistrate who draws their own conclusions? This complaint seems pretty flimsy and subjective, imo.

"The documents allege Kohberger was zip-tied after a no-knock warrant was served at his parents' home in Pennsylvania, and was then surrounded by police at gunpoint. "

So what? What would one expect to happen if they are being arrested for a violent quadruple murder? Could you imagine if he wasn't zip tied and held at gunpoint? What if he escaped and car jacked someone etc? LE would be heavily criticised if they had not taken those security measures.

I am sure the judge will suppress all the evidence the defense is requesting and BK will stroll out of jail! (sarcasm of course)-- GMAB

 

[Chloegirl]

RSBM for Focus:

IDK if it is a strong or weak argument, but IMO JL was clear and there appears to be documentation supporting his issue argued in the MTS home search.

I think Logsdon's argument here was weak and sarcastic.

Page 2 - Federal and PA LE conducted their raid basically because "we know he was in there and he owned a gun which is true of most Americas". Not accurate according to this study, less than half of households and approx a third of individuals.

<snipped>

46% of American households own at least one firearm according to a study by the University of Chicago. 32% of Americans say they personally own a firearm according to the 2021 National Firearms Survey. This means that more than 81.4 million Americans own guns. This number only includes adults over 18.

How Many Guns are in the US? [2024]

Page 3 - Police decided to do a no knock entry because "BK was wearing the same gloves millions of Americans wear to do the dishes". Not accurate that millions of people are wearing them while separating their personal garbage from the family garbage into ziplock bags and disposing of them in a neighbors trash bin in the middle of the night.

The No Knock entry was to protect all of the occupants of the home, and themselves, based on the unknown behavior of an accused quadruple murderer. I see this MTS being denied.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...Objection-Motion-Suppress-Memo-119Lamsden.pdf

JMO

If you ignore the strength or weakness of the case, isn't it the job of every defense attorney to suggest this kind of thing, trying to get evidence/arrest/case thrown out? JMOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

You're not reading the language as I am, at all. I've agreed to disagree with your interpretation, because as I've stated before I don't find it logical. MO

I feel the same.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

 

[ilovewings]

delete

 

[Boxer]

I, too, was a bit perplexed on this matter. Respectfully, IANAL, but it appears the operating element is only someone exhibiting or engaging in conduct such that it cause fear….. to a reasonable person. And IIUC that means the target of it need not be aware. They need not be in fear; but rather, if later made aware of the conditions how might they react.

Citing the apparent statute from post #853 of @sunshineray as to the actions of the offender:

(a) Engages in a course of conduct that seriously alarms, annoys or harasses the victim and is such as would cause a reasonable person substantial emotional distress; or

(b) Engages in a course of conduct such as would cause a reasonable person to be in fear of death or physical injury, or in fear of the death or physical injury of a family or household member."

Of course none of this takes into account what or how an attorney or counsel might represent something. And IIUC, as there is a gag order in place in this case much will not be evident until court proceedings, evidence, and testimony are given in the case. MOO

If the studenta at King Rd. were aware of some man parking behind their house, looking at them and their pattern of life they would be mad and fearful.

 

[girlhasnoname]

If you ignore the strength or weakness of the case, isn't it the job of every defense attorney to suggest this kind of thing, trying to get evidence/arrest/case thrown out? JMOO

I never said it wasn't the job of the Defense to try everything available to them for a vigorous and competent Defense. That is our 6th Amendment Right, even BK's. I've stated on many occasions that he has one of the best Defense Attorneys in AT that I've seen in a long time.

What I did say here is that Logsdon's attempt at barely veiled sarcasm, and non factual jabs in a document to the Court are probably not going to do him any favor with this Judge.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I never said it wasn't the job of the Defense to try everything available to them for a vigorous and competent Defense. That is our 6th Amendment Right, even BK's. I've stated on many occasions that he has one of the best Defense Attorneys in AT that I've seen in a long time.

What I did say here is that Logsdon's attempt at barely veiled sarcasm, and non factual jabs in a document to the Court are probably not going to do him any favor with this Judge.

JMO

I think it makes AT look incompetent to contest Warrants and Miranda rights after her client has been sitting in jail for 2 years. This should be done right after arrest.

Then it also looks incompetent not to try to get Bond for your client who was not arrested or Mirandized correctly.

2 Cents

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think it makes AT look incompetent to contest Warrants and Miranda rights after her client has been sitting in jail for 2 years. This should be done right after arrest.

Then it also looks incompetent not to try to get Bond for your client who was not arrested or Mirandized correctly.

2 Cents

Such a good point CC, never thought about it that way. AT seems to be pounding the table now because it's getting down to the nitty gritty.

Was bail ever set for BK, or is Capital Murder charges even bondable in Idaho? Maybe, but not sure.

JMO

 

[wendy44]

"...the warrant lacked probable cause as written, given its heavy reliance on conclusions reached by law enforcement without the details necessary for the magistrate to draw its own conclusions "

I'm not understanding their point here---Isn't a PCA always heavily reliant upon LE conclusions, which are then read by the magistrate who draws their own conclusions? This complaint seems pretty flimsy and subjective, imo.

Snipped by me--this goes back to their argument that omitting the IGG from the warrant was omitting material exculpatory information. They argue that had the IGG been included, it would have altered the magistrate's determination of probable cause. I think this is going to be a hard sell--I can't imagine what about the IGG was material and exculpatory, given he is actually a match to the dna on the sheath. They can't just say--you omitted information. They have to show--you omitted information that would have altered the magistrate's determination.

It would not even be advantageous for the defense if the IGG was wrong--it would then be filed under a tip that didn't pan out and be discarded and no longer an avenue for them to get the dna and all the warrants that resulted from it thrown out. An investigative genetic genealogist landing on a name is a tip, not evidence. If the dna doesn't match, the IGG is not what's exculpatory, the lack of dna match is. The tip is wrong, it gets discarded.
JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Such a good point CC, never thought about it that way. AT seems to be pounding the table now because it's getting down to the nitty gritty.

Was bail ever set for BK, or is Capital Murder charges even bondable in Idaho? Maybe, but not sure.

JMO

When her client was arrested and Mirandized "illegally" it wasn't even a death penalty case. It took time for the prosecutor to decide to charge him with death penalty aggravated factors.

But yes, BK has the right to request a Bond hearing. That AT never requested one says alot. Your client falsely arrested? They should get a Bond hearing.

Her job is to keep him off death row. Alot of "table splitting" to do.

2 Cents

 

[Balthazar]

Such a good point CC, never thought about it that way. AT seems to be pounding the table now because it's getting down to the nitty gritty.

Was bail ever set for BK, or is Capital Murder charges even bondable in Idaho? Maybe, but not sure.

JMO

He was not bondable because he was arrested as a fugitive from justice since he "fled" to his parents home in Pennsylvania for Christmas.

 

[ilovewings]

I think it makes AT look incompetent to contest Warrants and Miranda rights after her client has been sitting in jail for 2 years. This should be done right after arrest.

Then it also looks incompetent not to try to get Bond for your client who was not arrested or Mirandized correctly.

2 Cents

Agreed ----- also makes her look desperate

 

[Nila Aella]

I think it makes AT look incompetent to contest Warrants and Miranda rights after her client has been sitting in jail for 2 years. This should be done right after arrest.

Then it also looks incompetent not to try to get Bond for your client who was not arrested or Mirandized correctly.

2 Cents

Such a good point CC, never thought about it that way. AT seems to be pounding the table now because it's getting down to the nitty gritty.

Was bail ever set for BK, or is Capital Murder charges even bondable in Idaho? Maybe, but not sure.

JMO

The Judge set the schedule for Discovery and MTS.
The D is following the Judges schedule.

Judge M's arrest warrant specifies No Bail.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/122922+Arrest+Warrant.pdf

He was declared a fugitive by Idaho according to the PA criminal complaint.
Title 19 Chapter 45
19-4516. Bail — In what cases — Conditions of bond. Unless the offense with which the prisoner is charged is shown to be an offense punishable by death or life imprisonment under the laws of the state in which it was committed, a judge or magistrate in this state may admit the person arrested to bail by bond

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiM1oGzpt-KAxWF3skDHVVHFvgQFnoECAwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Flegislature.idaho.gov%2Fstatutesrules%2Fidstat%2Ftitle19%2Ft19ch45%2Fsect19-4516%2F&usg=AOvVaw274PdQTU-w8SK8rE40a-S1&opi=89978449

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The Judge set the schedule for Discovery and MTS.
The D is following the Judges schedule.

Judge M's arrest warrant specifies No Bail.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/122922+Arrest+Warrant.pdf

He was declared a fugitive by Idaho according to the PA criminal complaint.
Title 19 Chapter 45
19-4516. Bail — In what cases — Conditions of bond. Unless the offense with which the prisoner is charged is shown to be an offense punishable by death or life imprisonment under the laws of the state in which it was committed, a judge or magistrate in this state may admit the person arrested to bail by bond

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiM1oGzpt-KAxWF3skDHVVHFvgQFnoECAwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Flegislature.idaho.gov%2Fstatutesrules%2Fidstat%2Ftitle19%2Ft19ch45%2Fsect19-4516%2F&usg=AOvVaw274PdQTU-w8SK8rE40a-S1&opi=89978449

JMO

Thanks for that, you're a wealth of information on this case.

 

[whiterhino]

From the link above:

"Mr. Kohberger requests this Court to suppress all evidence obtained by police via the warrant that permitted them to search his parents' home," the defense wrote in one of the motions. "Law enforcement failed to knock and announce before raiding the home, and the warrant lacked probable cause as written, given its heavy reliance on conclusions reached by law enforcement without the details necessary for the magistrate to draw its own conclusions [...] Any statements made by Mr. Kohberger are the fruit of the poisonous tree of the illegal arrest."

The documents allege Kohberger was zip-tied after a no-knock warrant was served at his parents' home in Pennsylvania, and was then surrounded by police at gunpoint.

"Law enforcement did not mirandize him immediately. Instead, they waited until after he was transported in a police car, handcuffed, with at least two officers in the car," the defense argued.

"Law enforcement failed to knock and announce before raiding the home..."

Of course they didn't knock----they were trying to arrest a potentially dangerous killer. His family was in there with him, and if he was suddenly aware of his imminent arrest, they could have been held hostage, OR he could have tried to shoot his family and himself.

The safest way to make that arrest was by surprise so he could not react aggressively.

"...the warrant lacked probable cause as written, given its heavy reliance on conclusions reached by law enforcement without the details necessary for the magistrate to draw its own conclusions "

I'm not understanding their point here---Isn't a PCA always heavily reliant upon LE conclusions, which are then read by the magistrate who draws their own conclusions? This complaint seems pretty flimsy and subjective, imo.

"The documents allege Kohberger was zip-tied after a no-knock warrant was served at his parents' home in Pennsylvania, and was then surrounded by police at gunpoint. "

So what? What would one expect to happen if they are being arrested for a violent quadruple murder? Could you imagine if he wasn't zip tied and held at gunpoint? What if he escaped and car jacked someone etc? LE would be heavily criticised if they had not taken those security measures.

I cannot bold it any more than it already is... (ps re-read and am not taking issue with your post or directing towards you I am wholeheartedly agreeing )

A "No-Knock Warrant" is exactly what it sounds like. There was no "failure to knock". That is not the procedure

I understand we're talking about the DA and yes it's their job to fight tooth and nail but this is embarrassing. The fact that even I can comprehend this and a DA is contesting... even more embarrassing JMHO!

*Adding that I had no clue BK was considered a fugitive at that time. It makes perfect sense LE had every right and handled things correctly imo.

JMHO.

 

[Kemug]

"The documents allege Kohberger was zip-tied after a no-knock warrant was served at his parents' home in Pennsylvania, and was then surrounded by police at gunpoint. "

RSBM
Dearie dear. Perhaps LE should have been much gentler, they should have said "Come on lad, let's all have a nice cup of tea, I'm sure we can sort things out."

 

[INfisherman]

RSBM
Dearie dear. Perhaps LE should have been much gentler, they should have said "Come on lad, let's all have a nice cup of tea, I'm sure we can sort things out."

"….but first, we all would like to congratulate you on this well-earned honorary doctorate of criminal sciences presented to you on behalf of the state of Idaho…"