4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

[Kemug]

Agreed, Walmart surveillance video has single handedly help convict a large number of them, yet they continue to go there to purchase their supplies. I guess they're trying to save a dollar in the commission of their crimes.

JMO

Obviously not murdering for the inheritance then?

 

[girlhasnoname]

I remember David Eisenhauer & Natalie Keepers. Brian Walshe. Who else?

I see at least one a week on the ID channel shows even just last night. The woman who disappeared the mother in Florida purchased gloves, tarp, heavy duty garbage bags and an electric knife. I think WM should have an algorithm that flashes a "Warning, Danger" sign in these cases. Joking/not joking.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I know, it’s insane. So what if her account was clouded by alcohol? It was a tiny piece of the puzzle, and not something I’ve ever cited in regards to his guilt.

DM and BF were back at home by 10 pm. Even if they had been drinking, they would have had approx 5-6 hours of time in which to sober up. 1 drink metabolized per hour, so I think it's safe to say they weren't falling down drunk and incoherent like the Defense would like to have you to believe.

JMO

 

[NCWatcher]

DM and BF were back at home by 10 pm. Even if they had been drinking, they would have had approx 5-6 hours of time in which to sober up. 1 drink metabolized per hour, so I think it's safe to say they weren't falling down drunk and incoherent like the Defense would like to have you to believe.

JMO

That may all be true. But

1) Do we know they didn't drink when they got home at 10pm on Sat night? Do we know what they did do? (I may have missed discussion of that.)

2) People who weigh less tend to be more affected by X amount of alcohol than people who weigh more.

3) According to some research, women, regardless of size, may be more affected by alcohol than men and may take longer than 1 hour to process one drink.

4) A person doesn't have to be "falling down drunk" to have his/her memory affected by alcohol. People who are in the middle of an alcohol brown-out or even a complete black-out may appear relatively normal, for example.

5) Didn't the witness say her memory WAS affected by alcohol? To say she and her memory weren't affected in a significant way at the time of the murders, does that mean we have to assume she was just saying she was affected but really wasn't? That she clearly remembered what she saw and heard without "prompting?"

I never found the reported witness testimony to be compelling even before drinking was mentioned. Frankly it sounded coached to me, at least what was reported. And what she supposedly said she saw in the dark in a brief glimpse (athletic but not muscular) didn't make sense to me.

The problem I see is if weak, confusing, or really iffy evidence is presented to support guilt, if jurors don't buy that piece of the evidence it may affect how they view other evidence. And sometimes that is a wise approach. Innocent people ARE convicted based on iffy, coached, and constructed pieces of evidence. Not saying BK is innocent-- I want to see the actual evidence vs press or PCA partial reports of it. But we know innocent people are convicted in the US and sometimes sentenced to death. (In the Innocence Project cases, most wrongful convictions related to flawed eyewitness testimony and government misconduct.) And we know some innocent people have been executed. See, for example,
Cameron Todd Willingham: Wrongfully Convicted and Executed in Texas - Innocence Project
MOO

 

[Nila Aella]

DM and BF were back at home by 10 pm. Even if they had been drinking, they would have had approx 5-6 hours of time in which to sober up. 1 drink metabolized per hour, so I think it's safe to say they weren't falling down drunk and incoherent like the Defense would like to have you to believe.

JMO

I thought it was 1:00 AM.

pg 25 press release: Nov 19th

• Detectives believe that on November 12th, the two surviving roommates had been out in the Moscow community, separately, but returned home by 1 a.m. The two did not wake up until later on November 13th.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/2024/072224-Memorandum-Support-MCoV.pdf

Has that changed?

JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

No. God, please, just no.

This is one of only a handful of times I am grateful for a gag order!

 

[Rolypolyoly]

It would have been a smart move----maybe. But once they found his DNA, even if his phone was there charging all night, they'd have looked at ring cameras and cctv and interviewed neighbours, and likely would have established that his car was gone from his personal spot. And if he was out driving at 3am, but left his cell at home, that'd be very suspicious too.
And with his DNA, they'd be able to get warrant to check his car. There might be indications within computer system that his car was used the night before. He could try and claim it was stolen, and someone else used it. But would a car thief return it?

I'm not sure it would have helped him that much in the end.

At best, leaving his phone at home could possibly have helped create reasonable doubt if you have at least one sceptical juror, and that is what the defence would try and sell. Yes, it's pretty ridiculous to believe a thief would bring the car back, but someone who knew BK, and possibly had access to his car, or his apartment to steal his knife and sheath? They'd replace the car and hope he didn't ever notice it was gone.
Its not that hard to sow the seed of reasonable doubt.

Thank goodness BK isn't as smart as he thinks he is and he did take his phone!

 

[MoominMama222]

JMO

You want to know what they think about BK? Well, they've made it a point to state on the record they believe that BK is innocent. Which is a big deal to say the least in my opinion.


All MOO

Again, They can say that and not be lying because he is literally innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I don't think this is as big a deal as some people like to think. He just factually is innocent until he is convicted. MOO

 

[mrjitty]

If LE needs the DNA from a murder suspect they can get a warrant for it by showing Probable Cause.

So if they had the Moscow Killer's DNA from the crime scene, could they maybe obtain a warrant for that unknown DNA, and use that warrant to look through IGG databases?

It seems like it's the same principle. If someone is considered a prime murder suspect because of actual evidence, then the courts will approve the DNA retrieval. Why not use that same type of warrant when building an IGG ?

I am not sure what the policy argument is for making the IGG process subject to a warrant?

I don't feel it is the same as subpoena / warrants for digital evidence however there are some analogies. For instance if there has been a murder the state can often get a limited geofence report without warrant IIRC. The data is not regarded as private. Then you get into unmasking, and follow up warrants etc

I feel like AT was doing a lot of handwaving when this is actually all good!

 

[jepop]

What I wonder is why he didn't just leave his phone back in his apartment when he allegedly drove to Moscow and committed quadruple murder? If he had left his phone at home, wouldn't LE just see that his phone stayed in one place all night long and it was his apartment where it was? You know, like most people's phones generally do all night every night, when most people sleep. If his phone data had shown them that it had stayed home all night, would they have been as sure about the rest of their (perfectly valid) circumstantial evidence pointing to him? Would they have been as confident in saying that blurry grainy car in the videos was a 2015 Elantra? (or whatever year it was)

What could have been SO crucial that BK couldn't have left his phone at home that night? I figure he wanted it for GPS, so he could take an unfamiliar route home and not get lost. And maybe he had found a place earlier to ditch some evidence, but needed to use his phone maps to get back to it. What else would he need it for?

Whatever it was, seems like he could have figured out a way around it without having to take his phone along for the ride. What would it matter if he got lost on his way home? Pretty sure he could eventually find his way home without his phone, even if it did take more time and effort. And if he really was THAT dependent on phone GPS or some other feature only his phone has, he could always have just bought a quick burner phone for the use of that night only and destroyed it. And then came home to his apartment without it, where he'd find his own phone patiently waiting there for him, having got a good night's sleep, instead of relentlessly recording incriminating data on his travels like it would if he took it with him. Like he did.

Wouldn't you have expected him to leave his phone at home that night? Or am I the only one who finds that surprising. Am I wrong in thinking that would have been the best thing for him to have done w/his phone that night?

Maybe he never thought to leave it at home that night, because he seriously never thought it would matter. Because he truly thought would never be a suspect, much less THE suspect

Switching off phone draws suspicion but I believe that's what he did. For sure if he'd been smarter he would have left it in Pullman in his apartment and switched on but we know from PCA he didn't for whatever reasons. I have a theory he was driving in south-east Pullman at around 2.40amish when he realised he should drop his phone back home before embarking to Moscow, but the ongoing police presence near steptoe apartments (unrelated hit and run) that early morning made him decide to switch off and take it along rather than pop back home. Moo

Hit-and-run, homicide interrupt WSU Family Weekend

A homicide in the Moscow-Pullman area and one hit-and-run happened within 24 hours this weekend. The Moscow Police Department is still investigating the death of four people near the University of Idaho campus, but there is no threat to the community, according to an alert sent to UI students at...

dailyevergreen.com

ETA the grove is right opposite Steptoe Apartments carpark

Map last page of attached link below.

Grove: Furnished Student Apartments in Pullman, WA

Located in the heart of Pullman, our furnished student apartments were designed with you in mind. Come explore everything that The Grove has to offer.

www.groveatpullman.com

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Just had a sobering thought while paying a few bills this morning. The old fashioned way. With all the discussion about possible surreptitious means for obtaining an individual’s DNA, while licking an envelope to pay a couple bills……. there goes some DNA. Unless other measures are taken. MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I thought it was 1:00 AM.

pg 25 press release: Nov 19th

• Detectives believe that on November 12th, the two surviving roommates had been out in the Moscow community, separately, but returned home by 1 a.m. The two did not wake up until later on November 13th.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/2024/072224-Memorandum-Support-MCoV.pdf

Has that changed?

JMO

That was filed by AT for COV. (Detectives believe) The AA did not state specific times for DM and BF. Only later did we learn they had been out separately and had seen Xana and Ethan at the Frat House earlier in the evening. Xana and Ethan returned home by 1:45 and Maddie and Kaylee from the bar and food truck by 2 am.

I remember thinking that it was unusual that BF and DM were home by 10 pm. I will have to say this is my recollection (until I find my doc).

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I am not sure what the policy argument is for making the IGG process subject to a warrant?

I don't feel it is the same as subpoena / warrants for digital evidence however there are some analogies. For instance if there has been a murder the state can often get a limited geofence report without warrant IIRC. The data is not regarded as private. Then you get into unmasking, and follow up warrants etc

I feel like AT was doing a lot of handwaving when this is actually all good!

Here's part of her argument: AG Jeff Nye's reply is important, but I couldn't post it all due to the 20% rule.

<snipped>

Taylor alleged that officials had not obtained a warrant for several phases of the search that led to the IGG work.
"In this case, if society is not ready to support suppression of every bit of DNA when the government does not have a warrant and searches it, there is no privacy right left," Taylor said.

District Judge Steven Hippler, who presided over the proceeding, asked Taylor if she knew of any cases that support that argument.

"I do not have any cases that hold that, nor do I have any to the contrary that say that's not the case," Taylor said.

Bryan Kohberger's request in Idaho murder case sparks criticism from judge

 

[mrjitty]

Here's part of her argument: AG Jeff Nye's reply is important, but I couldn't post it all due to the 20% rule.

<snipped>

Taylor alleged that officials had not obtained a warrant for several phases of the search that led to the IGG work.
"In this case, if society is not ready to support suppression of every bit of DNA when the government does not have a warrant and searches it, there is no privacy right left," Taylor said.

District Judge Steven Hippler, who presided over the proceeding, asked Taylor if she knew of any cases that support that argument.

"I do not have any cases that hold that, nor do I have any to the contrary that say that's not the case," Taylor said.

Bryan Kohberger's request in Idaho murder case sparks criticism from judge

By that logic if I left a distinctive watch at the crime scene, and police made inquiries of jewellers who dealt in such watches to find who might have sold one, they'd need a warrant?

It all weak sauce IMO.

 

[mmeynstyn]

That may all be true. But

1) Do we know they didn't drink when they got home at 10pm on Sat night? Do we know what they did do? (I may have missed discussion of that.)

2) People who weigh less tend to be more affected by X amount of alcohol than people who weigh more.

3) According to some research, women, regardless of size, may be more affected by alcohol than men and may take longer than 1 hour to process one drink.

4) A person doesn't have to be "falling down drunk" to have his/her memory affected by alcohol. People who are in the middle of an alcohol brown-out or even a complete black-out may appear relatively normal, for example.

5) Didn't the witness say her memory WAS affected by alcohol? To say she and her memory weren't affected in a significant way at the time of the murders, does that mean we have to assume she was just saying she was affected but really wasn't? That she clearly remembered what she saw and heard without "prompting?"

I never found the reported witness testimony to be compelling even before drinking was mentioned. Frankly it sounded coached to me, at least what was reported. And what she supposedly said she saw in the dark in a brief glimpse (athletic but not muscular) didn't make sense to me.

The problem I see is if weak, confusing, or really iffy evidence is presented to support guilt, if jurors don't buy that piece of the evidence it may affect how they view other evidence. And sometimes that is a wise approach. Innocent people ARE convicted based on iffy, coached, and constructed pieces of evidence. Not saying BK is innocent-- I want to see the actual evidence vs press or PCA partial reports of it. But we know innocent people are convicted in the US and sometimes sentenced to death. (In the Innocence Project cases, most wrongful convictions related to flawed eyewitness testimony and government misconduct.) And we know some innocent people have been executed. See, for example,
Cameron Todd Willingham: Wrongfully Convicted and Executed in Texas - Innocence Project
MOO

Actually, IMO it is nothing new that she was under the influence of something, lots of college students are on weekends, especially when your roommate/ex-roommate comes to town for possibly the last time you will see her in a long while. She had to be in shock. I can't even image what she was going through and I can totally empathize with her wondering if she was imaging it.

IMO, the fact that her description was a spot on was one of the key pieces of information that led to him being a person of interest early on. So, unfortunately there are people that want to disparage her state of mind, but IMO, she is AWESOME for being truthful and having enough whits about her to give a good description (even with all his covering up).

 

[MassGuy]

That may all be true. But

1) Do we know they didn't drink when they got home at 10pm on Sat night? Do we know what they did do? (I may have missed discussion of that.)

2) People who weigh less tend to be more affected by X amount of alcohol than people who weigh more.

3) According to some research, women, regardless of size, may be more affected by alcohol than men and may take longer than 1 hour to process one drink.

4) A person doesn't have to be "falling down drunk" to have his/her memory affected by alcohol. People who are in the middle of an alcohol brown-out or even a complete black-out may appear relatively normal, for example.

5) Didn't the witness say her memory WAS affected by alcohol? To say she and her memory weren't affected in a significant way at the time of the murders, does that mean we have to assume she was just saying she was affected but really wasn't? That she clearly remembered what she saw and heard without "prompting?"

I never found the reported witness testimony to be compelling even before drinking was mentioned. Frankly it sounded coached to me, at least what was reported. And what she supposedly said she saw in the dark in a brief glimpse (athletic but not muscular) didn't make sense to me.

The problem I see is if weak, confusing, or really iffy evidence is presented to support guilt, if jurors don't buy that piece of the evidence it may affect how they view other evidence. And sometimes that is a wise approach. Innocent people ARE convicted based on iffy, coached, and constructed pieces of evidence. Not saying BK is innocent-- I want to see the actual evidence vs press or PCA partial reports of it. But we know innocent people are convicted in the US and sometimes sentenced to death. (In the Innocence Project cases, most wrongful convictions related to flawed eyewitness testimony and government misconduct.) And we know some innocent people have been executed. See, for example,
Cameron Todd Willingham: Wrongfully Convicted and Executed in Texas - Innocence Project
MOO

I could discount what she has to say entirely; it doesn't matter. Likewise, the jury doesn't have to believe a word of it.

A witness statement that at best, adds a bit of color to the picture, does not affect the damning evidence against him.

 

[jepop]

Actually, IMO it is nothing new that she was under the influence of something, lots of college students are on weekends, especially when your roommate/ex-roommate comes to town for possibly the last time you will see her in a long while. She had to be in shock. I can't even image what she was going through and I can totally empathize with her wondering if she was imaging it.

IMO, the fact that her description was a spot on was one of the key pieces of information that led to him being a person of interest early on. So, unfortunately there are people that want to disparage her state of mind, but IMO, she is AWESOME for being truthful and having enough whits about her to give a good description (even with all his covering up).

Yes, DM did so well to remember what she did and provide the basic generic description. Her evidence was great for supporting probable cause both timeline wise and her description did not exclude BK. What a brave young woman.

ETA And as you note, it's really hard to imagine the shock. She would have been in shock for days, possibly weeks. She did so well.

 

[jepop]

Again, They can say that and not be lying because he is literally innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I don't think this is as big a deal as some people like to think. He just factually is innocent until he is convicted. MOO

I've wondered if it is akin to method acting, where EM ( Massoth) and AT immerse themselves in their role as defenders of their client. This helps them provide the best defense possible for the duration of their work. Jmo

ETA trying to clarify; it could be that in a way they do/choose to believe in his innocence as this helps them provide a better defense.

 

[MassGuy]

Again, They can say that and not be lying because he is literally innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I don't think this is as big a deal as some people like to think. He just factually is innocent until he is convicted. MOO

Exactly. Watch any episode of Dateline; every attorney on there makes that claim.

The fact that in just about every single case those people are convicted, notwithstanding.

What would be unusual is if one of his attorneys came out and said, “yup, he did it!”

 

[NCWatcher]

Actually, IMO it is nothing new that she was under the influence of something, lots of college students are on weekends, especially when your roommate/ex-roommate comes to town for possibly the last time you will see her in a long while. She had to be in shock. I can't even image what she was going through and I can totally empathize with her wondering if she was imaging it.

IMO, the fact that her description was a spot on was one of the key pieces of information that led to him being a person of interest early on. So, unfortunately there are people that want to disparage her state of mind, but IMO, she is AWESOME for being truthful and having enough whits about her to give a good description (even with all his covering up).

Yes, lots of college students drink too much although it's not clear the witness spent time with KG that night or even knew very her well. I hadn't assumed the witness was definitely under the influence though until I read she said her memory was affected by alcohol.

I would like to know more about the actual interview before I find her credible. I still think she sounded coached in what has been reported.
MOO