4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

[Swansee]

Is this actually new info? I feel like we learned this long ago, but my brain is leaking across different forums and it’s possible I’m confusing one tragedy with another.

What I THINK I recall immediately after the murders is all the talk of its being a party house, with innumerable people coming and going. I also THINK I recall that most of the guests had been tested for DNA.

Even if I’m mixed up about this, yes unknown bloody male DNA seems startling at first glance. However, blood could come from anything at a party house, and to me the integral puzzle piece is WHERE Bryan’s DNA was found.

You’d really have to go out of your way, if you’re innocent, to get your DNA on the sheath snap of the murder weapon found tucked underneath one of the victims.

Also this would suggest two murderers, I suppose, and DM only saw and heard one man.

IMO

ETA: @Boxer I just saw your post after I posted…agree with you.

Yes it is new info (to me at least) that 2/3 of the unknown male DNA samples were from blood.
I don't discount the sheath DNA, and agree that is the main one. I am just shocked that unknown blood samples at the scene weren't more thoroughly investigated.

 

[MassGuy]

@MassGuy @Boxer
I wish LE would have done more testing of these blood DNA samples so we could know whether the blood was from a previous tenant or whatever. But they didn't.
Of course the knife sheath would be the priority, but that took weeks to analyze and it is stunning to me that in the meantime these two samples weren't also tested more thoroughly.
How could they know at the time that these were less relevant than the latent shoe print, which could also be from years prior by the same logic?

We don't know what they did with that blood evidence, other than running it through CODIS. It's not like they can go out and ask anyone who had ever been in that house to submit their DNA. If they did do that, it's unlikely everyone would even agree to that. We also don't know if anything has been done in the meantime. What would you expect them to do with that DNA?

What they did know, is that they almost certainly had the killer's DNA. That was the priority, as chasing that down would get them to their man. It did.

If he was working with someone else, which is spectacularly unlikely based on historical crimes and the known facts here, then that should have been uncovered by now.

 

[mrjitty]

We don't know what they did with that blood evidence, other than running it through CODIS. It's not like they can go out and ask anyone who had ever been in that house to submit their DNA. If they did do that, it's unlikely everyone would even agree to that. We also don't know if anything has been done in the meantime. What would you expect them to do with that DNA?

What they did know, is that they almost certainly had the killer's DNA. That was the priority, as chasing that down would get them to their man. It did.

If he was working with someone else, which is spectacularly unlikely based on historical crimes and the known facts here, then that should have been uncovered by now.

exactly. what more testing could be done?

 

[Rosydecember]

My thoughts too. Just making sure. Example of my often misunderstood humor.
Didn’t want to miss a good stomping around the house if one was called for.
Me and Cool Cats, we’re cool.

I absolutely love your sense of humor, I laughed when I read your post. It’s ok, a good stomping around the house can heal the soul. I’d recommend one before bed time LOL

 

[al66pine]

(Non-Forensic) POST of the DAY

.... I feel like we learned this long ago, but my brain is leaking across different forums and it’s possible I’m confusing one tragedy with another....

What I THINK I recall....

snipped for focus
@Arkay TYVM : )

Yes, me too. ^ A very familiar feeling on many points, on many threads spread over many cases
And you found aa terrific way of expressing it.

 

[SamiSleuth]

I feel like we learned this long ago

RSBM for focus

Yes, me too. ^ A very familiar feeling on many points, on many threads spread over many cases
And you found aa terrific way of expressing it.

Yes, me three. Were these also the unidentified male dna samples that provided only partial profiles and were not eligible for CODIS screening? If so, another 'pfftt' here.

 

[jepop]

Re unknown male blood on a glove and a handrail:
I'm guessing forensics can distinguish between fresh blood and old/aged blood? Jmo but I know of at least one poster here who has a good understanding of crime scene blood analysis and maybe they'll post something sometime.

I'm making an assumption the two samples mentioned are the same as those previously referred to by D in MTC x3 and thus did not qualify for upload to Codis. In a way it's good for the P that one of the unknown male DNA profiles in the house and the one outside on the glove were extracted from blood as I'm guessing this would make it relatively easy to eliminate as irrelevant if the blood can be tested for freshness. Jmo.

AT never mentioned blood as source of the unknown DNA in the prior motions. Imo it was highlighted in this public hearing for the same reason I believe she used the word secret and secretive to describe the IGG over and over again. This has the potential to create a stir in the media and sm, which has a chance of tainting or at least influencing some in the potential jury pool. Jmo

I believe it was mentioned in the hearing the defense in this case have received more IGG materials than in comparable cases, per both p and d. For eg. I believe the defense has seen family tree materials, handed over this time last year. I recall a D motion to amend JJJ's IGG order so their investigators could view the material (which was granted IIRC). I will post links to these in the morning but people can check the COI page for court docs between Jan 2024 and maybe around March.

AT is effective in multiple ways. Back in the JJJ era she and EM took advantage of an open hearing to proclaim what came across as personal convictions of their client's innocence. Imo that was directed at the public not the court because such declarations would have have zero influence over a judge, who makes decisions in line with the law not beliefs. Moo

Whilst after the whole change of venue I don't think AT will repeat the "my client is innocent your honour" tactic pre-trial with Judge Hippler, emphasising unknown blood on a glove and handrail ( stairs?) (omg!) and the secretive, secret IGG by FBI/government/state(did the FBI make up the DNA??) is similarly tactical.

 

[jepop]

RSBM for focus

Yes, me three. Were these also the unidentified male dna samples that provided only partial profiles and were not eligible for CODIS screening? If so, another 'pfftt' here.

They are one and the same imo.

 

[jepop]

We don't know what they did with that blood evidence, other than running it through CODIS. It's not like they can go out and ask anyone who had ever been in that house to submit their DNA. If they did do that, it's unlikely everyone would even agree to that. We also don't know if anything has been done in the meantime. What would you expect them to do with that DNA?

What they did know, is that they almost certainly had the killer's DNA. That was the priority, as chasing that down would get them to their man. It did.

If he was working with someone else, which is spectacularly unlikely based on historical crimes and the known facts here, then that should have been uncovered by now.

If they are the same unknown male profiles as previously discussed re Motion To Compel x3, then they didn't meet the threshold to be run through codis. They have to be the same imo, ie the glove outside is the same.

 

[gremlin444]

Blood on a glove containing unknown male DNA found just outside of a house where a quadruple knife homicide occurred is not relevant????

Blood on a staircase bannister containing unknown DNA near 2 bedrooms where 4 victims were stabbed is not relevant????

But instead, 11 skin cells from touch DNA is more relevant????

JMO.

Was it specified in the recent hearing that the blood spot on a handrail was the handrail in the stairwell that led up to K&M's rooms on the third as opposed to the stairwell that led from 1st floor to the 2nd? If not, that makes a big difference since there has been no evidence presented that indicates the killer was on the 1st-2nd floor staircase at all; but they wouldn't have known that yet in the first day or so of evidence collection, so they naturally would have been testing all staircases and entries (just like we saw them inspecting the 1st floor door and windows).

Was the glove location mentioned as well? Because if it's the glove at the edge of the property on the roadside that is used a walking path for students going from the big apartment complex to campus...then it's going to hold much less weight than DNA on an item in direct physical proximity to the victims.

And now the number you are quoting for the cells on the sheath has gone down from 20 to 11. Is this still from Blum's book and his claims of a source inside LE or is there finally some information that is coming out in the hearing/court documents?

 

[MassGuy]

Just a refresher on what was going on at school around the time of the murders. It's probably behind a paywall for most people so I used AI to summarize it:

• Bryan Kohberger was a Ph.D. student studying criminology at Washington State University in Pullman, Wash.
• He was charged with murdering four University of Idaho undergraduates.
• Kohberger displayed troubling behavior in the weeks around the killings.
• The university investigated his conduct around women.
• He was counseled over a verbal altercation with a professor.
• Kohberger was ultimately fired from his job as a teaching assistant.
• The university prepared a timeline to justify its decision to terminate him.
• The meeting was part of a series of discussions over Mr. Kohberger’s conduct during his criminology studies at Washington State University.

• The faculty’s concerns with Mr. Kohberger grew in the weeks after the Nov. 13 killings.
• He had not yet been identified as a suspect.
• The criminal justice department terminated Mr. Kohberger from his teaching assistant role in December.
• The decision was made at the department’s end-of-year meeting in December.
• Professors were also told that some female students reported that Mr. Kohberger had made them feel uncomfortable.
• In one instance, Mr. Kohberger was accused of following a female student to her car.
• The university’s investigation did not find Mr. Kohberger guilty of any wrongdoing.
• The decision to eliminate his funding and remove him from the teaching assistant job was based on his unsatisfactory performance as a teaching assistant.
• He had an “altercation” on Sept. 23 with John Snyder, the W.S.U. professor he was assisting.

• On Nov. 2, department leaders met with Mr. Kohberger to discuss an improvement plan.
• Eleven days later, the four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death overnight in a home just off campus in Moscow, Idaho.
• In the termination document, officials described a second “altercation” that Mr. Kohberger had with the professor after the killings, on Dec. 9.
• Later that month, the department decided to remove him from his position as a teaching assistant, cutting off his pay and saying that he “had not made progress regarding professionalism.”
• Phil Weiler, a vice president and spokesman for W.S.U., said a federal student privacy law prohibited him from commenting in detail on Mr. Kohberger’s history with the university.
• Mr. Kohberger is being held in jail after being charged with four counts of murder; he has said through a lawyer that he looks forward to being exonerated.
• The Times previously reported that students had complained about Mr. Kohberger’s harsh grading in his teaching assistant role, resulting in a classroom discussion in which he sought to defend the feedback he provided the students.
• Mr. Kohberger had entered the program at W.S.U. after earning a master’s degree in June at DeSales University, in Center Valley, Pa., not far from where he had spent his teenage years struggling with emotional problems and drug addiction.
• Records show that after the initial altercation with the professor on Sept. 23, Mr. Kohberger met with a university official to “discuss norms of professional behavior.”
• By Oct. 21, a professor emailed him about “the ways in which you had failed to meet your expectations as a T.A. thus far in the semester.”
• Some of the details of Mr. Kohberger’s troubles and eventual firing were first posted online by an Arkansas woman who has closely followed the case.

University Investigated Idaho Murder Suspect’s Behavior Around Time of Killings (Published 2023)

Bryan Kohberger had a verbal altercation with a professor and was investigated over his behavior around female students before he was charged in four murders.

www.nytimes.com

 

[jepop]

Was it specified in the recent hearing that the blood spot on a handrail was the handrail in the stairwell that led up to K&M's rooms on the third as opposed to the stairwell that led from 1st floor to the 2nd? If not, that makes a big difference since there has been no evidence presented that indicates the killer was on the 1st-2nd floor staircase at all; but they wouldn't have known that yet in the first day or so of evidence collection, so they naturally would have been testing all staircases and entries (just like we saw them inspecting the 1st floor door and windows).

Was the glove location mentioned as well? Because if it's the glove at the edge of the property on the roadside that is used a walking path for students going from the big apartment complex to campus...then it's going to hold much less weight than DNA on an item in direct physical proximity to the victims.

And now the number you are quoting for the cells on the sheath has gone down from 20 to 11. Is this still from Blum's book and his claims of a source inside LE or is there finally some information that is coming out in the hearing/court documents?

11 cells is news to me too. Just as 20 cells was. It,'s been Blum all the way imo. As far as I know the number of cells comprising the full male single source profile from the sheathe snap has never been specified in any court docs available to the public. Moo

 

[Swansee]

I'm guessing forensics can distinguish between fresh blood and old/aged blood? Jmo but I know of at least one poster here who has a good understanding of crime scene blood analysis and maybe they'll post something sometime.

This is exactly the sort of thing I would love to know. Is there some aspect that would allow them to determine if blood has been there for hours/days as opposed to months/years? I really don't know anything about that sort of testing. It would be fantastic to have @10ofRods input on the matter.

 

[MassGuy]

IGG - just like with the touch DNA. JMO.

Touch DNA on the sheath is a lead, not proof. The touch DNA in this case was 11 skin cells according to information presented in the hearing. JMO.

I believe that is what the FGJ was/is investigating - specifically IF BK was somehow connected to OC. JMO.

This type of multiple homicide is not unknown in the United States and is most often associated with OC. Although, usually, for a houseful of people, more than one assailant would be sent to do the job. And, in fact, there appears to be evidence that that is what happened. JMO.

At the hearing last week, we learned of blood DNA evidence of 2 unknown men and DNA evidence of a third - we have not been told what kind of DNA that third sample is, yet. However, one blood/DNA evidence was on a glove outside and one blood/DNA evidence was on the bannister. A bloody glove located just outside of a house where there has been a multiple stabbing homicide - what are the chances it could be related to the murders vs. from people partying at the house at an earlier time? Blood on a bannister within a home where there has been a multiple stabbing homicide that would have required the assailant(s) to go up and down the staircase. What are the chances it could be related to the murders, vs. from some unknown party guest who cut himself at some prior time? JMO.

We have a LE timeline that would have one man stab 4 young adults to death in about 10 minutes and somehow not get any evidence in his vehicle when he left the crime scene immediately afterwards vs. more than one person involved in these murders. JMO.

We learned from the PCA that a dog started barking at 4:17am but AT told us that what had been left out was that the dog continued barking long after the white Elantra left the area at 4:25am - the dog barked for another 23 minutes at least. The dog recorded barking near 1122 continued barking for 23 minutes after the white Elantra left, it is unlikely that the person in the white Elantra was what the dog was barking at, otherwise the recorded dog would have stopped barking when the white Elantra drove away. JMO.

All JMO.

Yeah, none of that moves the needle for me at all. Defense is making fiction out of irrelevant pieces of evidence, which isn't a bad move at all. I can't see it fooling many people now, and wont' fool anyone come trial.

 

[sunshineray]

I agree with your reasoning here, the 12 X info was valid for the PCA and not misleading. The investigation into BK's prior activities was just kicking off. That evidence leads to reasonable suspicion for further investigation. Jmo

As to your last paragraph, the phone never again utilised cellular resources consistent with the 1122 address or anywhere else in Moscow after Nov 14th. This is in the PCA and not a detail questioned by the D at this hearing. That fact also supports the inclusion of the x12 prior times in the PCA and imo tends to negate arguments re misleading. Jmo

If BK went to Moscow between the murders and when he left Pullman for PA (on 12th/13th Dec?) he either left his device elsewhere or turned it off each time Imo. Or he simply never went back again after mission accomplished. Jmo

Regarding any updated state of affairs; We do not know if phone off and then on again evidence exists during any of BK's prior visits, nor whether the D and P differ on expert interpretation of the final CAST report. AJ mentioned that the P differs with the D on a factual basis for some of the pre crime cell phone evidence, but was pulled up by the judge because some of the discovery is post the Frank's submissions. AJ said the correct place to explore the CSL data is the trial. Jmo

It was included in the PCA that he did possibly return before the 911 call reporting the murders was made and possibly after. A white car was seen on two separate videos. I wonder if those will come into evidence.

Added bonus, Websleuths even gets a mention in the article

Idaho murders: Mystery white cars on video near crime scene day after student stabbings

Two white car sightings were recorded near the King Road home in Moscow after four University of Idaho students were killed. Suspect Bryan Kohberger drove a white Hyundai Elantra.

www.google.com

 

[Cool Cats]

I don’t have any idea what you are talking about.
Are you dismissing my argument?
Dismissing me?
Dismissing the defense team, criminal investigations, state of the world in general?
Whichever is fine, I just need to understand so I will know if I should be outraged and offended for about 45 seconds or so.

You posted this and I was agreeing.

BK doesn’t have to admit he was in the house because his attorney, AT, admitted he was in the house by arguing that BK had an expectation of privacy for his DNA so it should not have been collected by LE.
If it wasn’t his DNA she wouldn’t be able to argue that.
BK’s DNA, somewhere it shouldn’t be and nobody can wash it away.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

He is dangerous to his daughters justice.

The media does not have the power to lock someone up, only the court does.

The media can present facts, but only the verdict of jurors who are literally the "tryors of fact" make those facts legally true and from their verdict the court can order law enforcement to imprison a defendant who is convicted.

Agreed. I believe he is the main reason the gag order was required in the first place. JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

IGG - just like with the touch DNA. JMO.

Touch DNA on the sheath is a lead, not proof. The touch DNA in this case was 11 skin cells according to information presented in the hearing. JMO.

I believe that is what the FGJ was/is investigating - specifically IF BK was somehow connected to OC. JMO.

This type of multiple homicide is not unknown in the United States and is most often associated with OC. Although, usually, for a houseful of people, more than one assailant would be sent to do the job. And, in fact, there appears to be evidence that that is what happened. JMO.

At the hearing last week, we learned of blood DNA evidence of 2 unknown men and DNA evidence of a third - we have not been told what kind of DNA that third sample is, yet. However, one blood/DNA evidence was on a glove outside and one blood/DNA evidence was on the bannister. A bloody glove located just outside of a house where there has been a multiple stabbing homicide - what are the chances it could be related to the murders vs. from people partying at the house at an earlier time? Blood on a bannister within a home where there has been a multiple stabbing homicide that would have required the assailant(s) to go up and down the staircase. What are the chances it could be related to the murders, vs. from some unknown party guest who cut himself at some prior time? JMO.

We have a LE timeline that would have one man stab 4 young adults to death in about 10 minutes and somehow not get any evidence in his vehicle when he left the crime scene immediately afterwards vs. more than one person involved in these murders. JMO.

We learned from the PCA that a dog started barking at 4:17am but AT told us that what had been left out was that the dog continued barking long after the white Elantra left the area at 4:25am - the dog barked for another 23 minutes at least. The dog recorded barking near 1122 continued barking for 23 minutes after the white Elantra left, it is unlikely that the person in the white Elantra was what the dog was barking at, otherwise the recorded dog would have stopped barking when the white Elantra drove away. JMO.

All JMO.

I mean i would guess that the dog was barking to try and alert someone that something was wrong but that's just me.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

DM told LE that she was drunk/having problems with her memory/didn't know if what she saw was real or if it was a dream. This is NOT the contention of the defense at all. This is DM's own testimony to police repeated in multiple LE interviews.

I think if she wasn't sure at the time if what she was seeing was real, which I believe is what happened, I can see her trying to explain that later when she found out what had happened, to explain why she hadn't called LE or come out of her room to check, but I think it's safe for us to assume now, after we know what happened in the house, that her basic statement is correct. She thought she saw a man in black walk past her door at a certain time, and we know that she did.
I mean what are the chances of her coincidentally hallucinating or dreaming about a man all in black, about the same build as BK, with bushy eyebrows, at the exact same time as her room mates were murdered, and a sheath containing none other than BK DNA is left underneath the body of one of said roommates, right around the same time that BK is coincidentally driving around the neighbourhood?
I mean, really?

True. She certainly recognized she was intoxicated.
It altered how she saw things, but not what she saw.
The fact that she recalled these things, fuzzy or not, the day after a quadruple murder took place in that very house means something.

Exactly!

@MassGuy @Boxer
I wish LE would have done more testing of these blood DNA samples so we could know whether the blood was from a previous tenant or whatever. But they didn't.
Of course the knife sheath would be the priority, but that took weeks to analyze and it is stunning to me that in the meantime these two samples weren't also tested more thoroughly.
How could they know at the time that these were less relevant than the latent shoe print, which could also be from years prior by the same logic?

I think they decided the footprint was important because it was right outside the door where one of the surviving roommates reported seeing an intruder.

 

[mickey2942]

Agreed. I believe he is the main reason the gag order was required in the first place. JMO

I feel badly for the parents of the victims. Their children's killer sits in jail, demanding vegan food, and other accommodations, while his attorney does everything possible to get evidence dismissed.

That would be so frustrating and difficult.