4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

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  • #1,301
This has been my opinion for years about those 2 cases: sequestered juries on murders that are especially heinous. I think "group think" takes over, and what a strong juror believes is accepted as gospel by weaker minded members. I've been on 4 juries. One was a S/A, with a vegetable peeler. It's so difficult to be on a trial such as that without being afforded the opportunity to share your feelings at the end of each day. Instead you hold all these pieces of evidence in your head, ruminating over them without being able to talk it out. Sequester a jury away from their loved ones, and it can really become overwhelming IMO. They become your "family" and a juror may vote as a block due to the bonds they've formed. Again, just my opinion.
And of course there were other, underlying things going on with both these trials.

Agreed. I am quiet, and have served in commitee meetings, which became so contentious, we had a copy of "Robert's Rules" as a guide.

One time, it was so awful, I just agreed with anything to get away from the ongoing bickering. I grew up in a quiet home, and have worked to avoid conflict in my personal life. When I meet people who are conflict driven, I am actually in awe of their veracity, and verbosity.

So, I can see how a person like me, would vote anything after 4 or 5 days of arguments. Just let me out of here.
 
  • #1,302
This is something that is concerning.
I would say that if BK is guilty of murder, then by nature and type he resembles more of a SK. And killing one girl would be "that" behavior.
But how often do we see SKs attacking four people? That would be a mass killing behavior. Very different. I can imagine killing the second person who by chance ended up there as a witness, but two more people? On a different floor? Kind of unusual. Although God knows, behaviors turn unpredictable.

I personally think that XK caught sight of BK as he was leaving, maybe she went out of her room because she heard something weird and she is the one who said "someone is here" and he felt he had no choice (he did, of course have a choice) but to go after her, which caused enough commotion to disturb Ethan, who came to xk's rescue and straight into BK's path. I think if DM or BF had ventured out if their rooms they too would've been murdered
JMO
 
  • #1,303
Agreed. I am quiet, and have served in commitee meetings, which became so contentious, we had a copy of "Robert's Rules" as a guide.

One time, it was so awful, I just agreed with anything to get away from the ongoing bickering. I grew up in a quiet home, and have worked to avoid conflict in my personal life. When I meet people who are conflict driven, I am actually in awe of their veracity, and verbosity.

So, I can see how a person like me, would vote anything after 4 or 5 days of arguments. Just let me out of here.
Regretfully I think that is why the D is doing what they are doing. Get some of these controversial issues, such as privacy with IGG and law enforcement mistrust, out in the public. Get some of those folks on the jury, hoping they will be a dog with a bone. I have served on juries before, not anything like an SA or murder or anything; IMO, a person's history and belief system can play a big part in decision making, possibly even bigger than the actual evidence in the trial. JMO
Edit to include JMO
 
  • #1,304
I personally think that XK caught sight of BK as he was leaving, maybe she went out of her room because she heard something weird and she is the one who said "someone is here" and he felt he had no choice (he did, of course have a choice) but to go after her, which caused enough commotion to disturb Ethan, who came to xk's rescue and straight into BK's path. I think if DM or BF had ventured out if their rooms they too would've been murdered
JMO
I am with you on that thinking....especially if that Burger King bag on the kitchen counter was the door dash delivery. Someone put it on the kitchen counter. I always wondered if/when she did that, she saw him coming down the stairs and he was right behind her as she went back to tell EC someone was in there. JMO. we may learn more in the trial, as I am sure the DD driver communicated whether the delivery was from Burger King.
 
  • #1,305
Bundy, Chi Omega.
Rader, the Oteros.
Ramirez attacked whole families multiple times, killing some individuals, abusing and torturing others.
That's just off the top of my head.
Chad Isaak in ND attacked 4 workers as they came into work, with a knife and a gun. Total of ~98 stabs plus more slashes, 9 gunshot wounds, in and out in about 20 minutes, and it took that long because he had to wait for the last one (I believe his true target) to arrive. Remarkable in that there were at least 3 weapons IN the business but no one had time to fetch them.
 
  • #1,306
Respectfully, I do appreciate the clarification & thank you, but it’s taking my post a bit out of context & even clarified in a second post you may have overlooked(?). If I may explain, kindly…

The extent of the conversation was more than the post of mine you quoted & was limited to specific actions which others speculated might be discounted by defense or others as being OCD sympotoms/habits. My response wasn’t a sweeping suggestion that just any OCD symptoms might show up but rather a select few he was doing while in PA, like baggie use, latex gloves, etc.

Point being if it was claimed as OCD, did anyone observe those habits/tendencies prior to the crime? One area came to mind where people would see him regularly was in a class/lecture/tutoring or office hours visit. It was just a thought & I’m certainly no expert, obviously.

Does that make any more sense of it?

Again, thank you for enlightening me with your reply.

ETA clarity/context

I believe that in early articles about him written by his school friends, OCD was the first thing to be mentioned, yes. Visual snow, stings at rehabs and staring at women so that one restaurant asked him to leave was published later.
 
  • #1,307
I can believe BK has OCD, but I don't believe that is why he was putting his trash in baggies whilst wearing latex gloves (which the defence interestingly describe as "kitchen gloves"). There were reports the BK had been surveilled wearing latex gloves whilst shopping in PA, but he wasn't wearing gloves on the traffic stops, and doesn't appear to have worn them to work, I'm sure people would've reported that by now if he had.
I believe that he realised with those traffic stops that he was a suspect, and that he was possibly under surveillance, he knew they had found the sheath and was taking precautions to limit access to his DNA. Otherwise why not dispose of the baggies in his own trash? One would think if it was OCD due to being a germophobe for example, he wouldn't want to access random neighbours trash unnecessarily.
JMO
 
  • #1,308
I can believe BK has OCD, but I don't believe that is why he was putting his trash in baggies whilst wearing latex gloves (which the defence interestingly describe as "kitchen gloves"). There were reports the BK had been surveilled wearing latex gloves whilst shopping in PA, but he wasn't wearing gloves on the traffic stops, and doesn't appear to have worn them to work, I'm sure people would've reported that by now if he had.
I believe that he realised with those traffic stops that he was a suspect, and that he was possibly under surveillance, he knew they had found the sheath and was taking precautions to limit access to his DNA. Otherwise why not dispose of the baggies in his own trash? One would think if it was OCD due to being a germophobe for example, he wouldn't want to access random neighbours trash unnecessarily.
JMO

Agree.

He was paranoid and anything out of the ordinary (police car driving by his apartment complex in Pullman, law officer walking around on campus, anything...) would have made him paranoid that they were onto him.

The 2 stops in Indiana definitely would have been interpreted by him that they were following/surveilling him and he had to get rid of his DNA and everything else he might have once he got to PA.
 
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  • #1,310
All MOO

Hopefully the defense doesn't cite the following study...

"Our DNA can easily be transferred from item to item or from one location to another, even if we never touched the item ourselves or were never at the scene of the crime. One study showed that after two people shook hands and then each handled a separate knife, in 85% of cases, the DNA of the other person was transferred to the knife and profiled. In one-fifth of the samples, the DNA analysis identified this other person as the main or only contributor of DNA to the weapon."

Forensic Genetic Genealogy Searches: What Defense Attorneys & Policy Makers Need to Know

But if that was the case, there would be 2 DNA profiles on the sheath and there was only 1
 
  • #1,311
Is it me, or did the Moscow, ID detectives who testified at the evidentiary hearing invoke the term, "I don't recall" WAY too many times while being questioned by the defense attorneys about the very evidence the detectives collected??

For me, an inordinate number of "I don't recall" responses from a witness under oath suggests either evasion, or incompetency - either one likely won't appear well to a jury. They did NOT exude confidence (except the typical degree of swagger exhibited by LEO's experienced in testifying for the state), nor did they come-off (to me) as being particularly compelling or convincing.

In the COPO (Court of Public Opinion), the much easier court to convict an accused - there already seems to be some reasonable doubt, especially surrounding the DNA collection and the cell tower "dump" collection...two things that states case relies heavily on.

This isn't a slam dunk for the state by any means. To leave so little forensic evidence while in the commission of 4 FOUR stabbing homicides, this dude Kohberger (whose parent's home is less-than 1/4 mile from our family's Pocono summer place in PA) would have had to have been excruciatingly talented at concealing murders, or, beyond-statistical analysis lucky, or, not present at the time of the murders.
 
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  • #1,312
But if that was the case, there would be 2 DNA profiles on the sheath and there was only 1
Agree entirely @Justice101 …. and despite the OP hope that the defense doesn’t use that particular citation, in reviewing it I actually hope the opposite. And I hope that they do. Because IIUC the sheath snap sampling was believed associated with a single profile. Additional details on the reference may be of interest.

The article cited in the OP is Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) “Forensic Genetic Genealogy Searches: What Defense Attorneys & Policy Makers Need to Know, by Jennifer Lynch, July 26, 2023.” The referenced quote in the OP is footnote (#47) and that is from the article entitled ‘Forensic DNA Is Not Infallible’ of the following citation. It is from a publication nearly 10 years ago:

Cynthia M. Cale, Forensic DNA evidence is not infallible, Nature (Oct. 28, 2015), Forensic DNA evidence is not infallible - Nature.

Per the article, Ms. Cale was then a student at the University of Indianapolis, Indiana and was a DNA Analyst III at Strand Diagnostics.

Per the Nature publication, the October 28, 2015 Nature article was revised on November 5, 2015. That was done in order to clarify that the then current investigation in Texas was focusing on statistics, and not the specific problem of secondary contamination in touch DNA samples. Apparently the article as originally published did not make that distinction.

Again for these reasons there might be questions as to the validity of the claims made by the original citation. Time will tell in this case. As it is IIRC still under a partial gag order, and has not yet gone to trial with evidence in a court proceeding. MOO
 
  • #1,313
BK knew he left the sheath at the scene, big screw up on his part. Being a Doctoral Student in CJ he is well versed in the process of how LE operates. He already knew they were looking to speak with the driver of a white Elantra, his guard was already up before he left Pullman IMO.

I believe he also knew they would be trying to retrieve his DNA. It makes absolutely no sense to me to think he would wear gloves, separate his trash from his families in PA, put in Ziplock baggies and place it in a neighbors bin in the middle of the night. He was in self preservation mode.

Too late smartest (not) guy in the room.

JMO
Trying to close the narn door after the cows are out.
 
  • #1,314
Is it me, or did the Moscow, ID detectives who testified at the evidentiary hearing invoke the term, "I don't recall" WAY too many times while being questioned by the defense attorneys about the very evidence they collected??

For me, an inordinate number of "I don't recall" responses from a witness under oath suggests either evasion, or incompetency - either one likely won't appear well to a jury. They did NOT exude confidence (except the typical degree of swagger exhibited by LEO's experienced in testifying for the state), nor did they come-off (to me) as being particularly compelling or convincing.

In the COPO (Court of Public Opinion), the much easier court to convict an accused - there already seems to be some reasonable doubt, especially surrounding the DNA collection and the cell tower "dump" collection...two things that states case relies heavily on.

This isn't a slam dunk for the state by any means. To leave so little forensic evidence while in the commission of 4 FOUR stabbing homicides, this dude Kohberger (whose parent's home is less-than 1/4 mile from our family's Pocono summer place in PA) would have had to have been excruciatingly talented at concealing murders, or, beyond-statistical analysis lucky, or, not present at the time of the murders.
That was completely standard from what I've seen at hearings like this. Many times, the defense attorney will ask questions that they know is beyond the purview of the investigator on the stand, in order to create an impression that certain things weren't done. When it happens at trial, it leads to mass hysteria online. "I can't believe they didn't perform a rape kit," was one of the refrains from the Delphi Trial. Of course that defied common sense, and we later learned why that the CSI didn't perform a rape kit (that's the work of the medical examiner). These investigators also don't want to lock themselves into an answer, when they aren't absolutely positive.

As for the DNA and cell phone stuff, those are simply defense claims. Again, there have been numerous cases I've followed where the defense was even stronger in their attempted rebuttal of this stuff (at preliminary hearings/other hearings), and come trial they showed they were all bark and no bite. In one case (Kelsey Berreth murder) they completely rolled over and never called anyone to refute the things they were attempting to refute at prior hearings.

Regardless of if one believes Kohberger is the killer, the person who committed these murders left very little physical evidence at the scene. That's not the product of luck, it was the product of planning.

He uses a combat knife so he doesn't cut himself (the guard prevents slippage that we see in other murder cases).

He likely wore some sort of protective suit with booties, which can be easily purchased on Amazon.

He wore gloves to eliminate the possibility of fingerprints or DNA transfer.

Once he removed that suit, likely before entering his car, there would be minimal, if any, blood on him.

I believe that he had at least one site picked out where he'd dump evidence, and completely change clothes (may not have even been necessary with those overalls).
 
  • #1,315
...

This isn't a slam dunk for the state by any means. To leave so little forensic evidence while in the commission of 4 FOUR stabbing homicides, this dude Kohberger (whose parent's home is less-than 1/4 mile from our family's Pocono summer place in PA) would have had to have been excruciatingly talented at concealing murders, or, beyond-statistical analysis lucky, or, not present at the time of the murders.
Just a reminder: We do not know the amount/type of forensic evidence found at the scene. What is in the PCA was just enough to have Probable Cause for Arrest.

MOO
 
  • #1,316
Just a reminder: We do not know the amount/type of forensic evidence found at the scene. What is in the PCA was just enough to have Probable Cause for Arrest.

MOO
That's true, but if there was more DNA evidence other than what was found on the sheath, I'm sure we would have heard about it at some point.

I do believe that's the extent of it, and that's just fine.
 
  • #1,317
This isn't a slam dunk for the state by any means. To leave so little forensic evidence while in the commission of 4 FOUR stabbing homicides, this dude Kohberger (whose parent's home is less-than 1/4 mile from our family's Pocono summer place in PA) would have had to have been excruciatingly talented at concealing murders, or, beyond-statistical analysis lucky, or, not present at the time of the murders.

This would be true no matter whom the murderer may be. I’m convinced that it’s BK, but it remains a fact that the culprit left only a minuscule amount of evidence behind, so IMO the lack of plentiful forensic evidence does not exonerate Bryan.

I’m sure we all recall President Clinton stating “I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.” Then his DNA from his semen was found on her blue dress, and the jig was up.

Perhaps touch DNA does not strike some as powerfully as the semen stain DNA, but IMO now, nearly 30 or so years later, the methodology is vastly improved. Bryan’s DNA was there. Even if it’s just 11 skin cells—-he was there, with his finger on the snap of the sheath. Under a body.

That doesn’t happen unless he touched it, as it’s single source DNA.

As a juror I would convict him due to his irrefutable presence there.

IMO
 
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  • #1,318
Is it me, or did the Moscow, ID detectives who testified at the evidentiary hearing invoke the term, "I don't recall" WAY too many times while being questioned by the defense attorneys about the very evidence the detectives collected??

For me, an inordinate number of "I don't recall" responses from a witness under oath suggests either evasion, or incompetency - either one likely won't appear well to a jury. They did NOT exude confidence (except the typical degree of swagger exhibited by LEO's experienced in testifying for the state), nor did they come-off (to me) as being particularly compelling or convincing.

In the COPO (Court of Public Opinion), the much easier court to convict an accused - there already seems to be some reasonable doubt, especially surrounding the DNA collection and the cell tower "dump" collection...two things that states case relies heavily on.

This isn't a slam dunk for the state by any means. To leave so little forensic evidence while in the commission of 4 FOUR stabbing homicides, this dude Kohberger (whose parent's home is less-than 1/4 mile from our family's Pocono summer place in PA) would have had to have been excruciatingly talented at concealing murders, or, beyond-statistical analysis lucky, or, not present at the time of the murders.
QUOTE
To leave so little forensic evidence while in the commission of 4 FOUR stabbing homicides, this dude Kohberger (whose parent's home is less-than 1/4 mile from our family's Pocono summer place in PA) would have had to have been excruciatingly talented at concealing murders, or, beyond-statistical analysis lucky, or, not present at the time of the murders.

He left very important evidence at the crime scene.

1.) Witness ID
2.) His DNA
3.) Knife sheath under victim
4.) Car matching his car's description trying to pull out fast after crimes
5.) Car matching his car's description circling the King Rd block before the crimes.

This is more evidence left behind than what I have seen on most other cases.

2 Cents
 
  • #1,319
I can believe BK has OCD, but I don't believe that is why he was putting his trash in baggies whilst wearing latex gloves (which the defence interestingly describe as "kitchen gloves"). There were reports the BK had been surveilled wearing latex gloves whilst shopping in PA, but he wasn't wearing gloves on the traffic stops, and doesn't appear to have worn them to work, I'm sure people would've reported that by now if he had.
I believe that he realised with those traffic stops that he was a suspect, and that he was possibly under surveillance, he knew they had found the sheath and was taking precautions to limit access to his DNA. Otherwise why not dispose of the baggies in his own trash? One would think if it was OCD due to being a germophobe for example, he wouldn't want to access random neighbours trash unnecessarily.
JMO

Honestly do we know if he was a suspect?
Indiana says, no. The Feds said they didn't intentionally stop him in Indiana.

We really never know all the details of these cases, why and how someone became a suspect. It shouldn't be an Elantra because the "specialist" misread the year, so it must have been something else, methinks.

So I can't discount the fact that in Indiana they were merely stopping the cars with out-of-state license plates, either. And whatever information came about BK, came when he was in PA. It could be so that he felt that he was followed or observed. He has visual snow but PA is his home, he may notice things better there, after all.

Nothing else makes any logical sense. If they suspected him in ID/WA, they'd arrest him there. If they suspected him in Indiana, don't tell me that the Feds and the LE allowed a killer of four people to peacefully drive to PA. Just did two road checks, and in the meantime, BK and dad were visiting Thai food places, etc.? But in PA they suddenly broke into his house, SWAT and all, didn't we see the newspaper pictures of how the parents' house looked afterwards?

I bet whatever information they got came when he was in PA.
 
  • #1,320
This would be true no matter whom the murderer may be. I’m convinced that it’s BK, but it remains a fact that the culprit left only a minuscule amount of evidence behind, so IMO the lack of plentiful forensic evidence does not exonerate Bryan.

I’m sure we all recall President Clinton stating “I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.” Then his DNA from his semen was found on her blue dress, and the jig was up.

Perhaps touch DNA does not strike some as powerfully as the semen stain DNA, but IMO now, nearly 30 or so years later, the methodology is vastly improved. Bryan’s DNA was there. Even if it’s just 11 skin cells—-he was there, with his finger on the snap of the sheath. Under a body.

That doesn’t happen unless he touched it, as it’s single source DNA.

As a juror I would convict him due to his irrefutable presence there.

IMO

That's becoming an interesting area. For investigators, prosecutors, attorneys, jury and us.

There should be some other place for DNA to be left. Blood, handle, something. If it was just a touch DNA on the sheath, there is a chance that he wasn't in the house and the sheath was brought in and placed. By someone else.

We are past obtaining the evidence, good job, the investigators. We are in the area of interpreting it. That is very different.

Comes to how many people visited the house, and where was BK "shopping" in Moscow...
 
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