Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#12

[Harmony 2]

thread #1 thread #2 thread #3 thread #4 thread #5 thread #6 thread #7 thread #8 thread #9 thread #10 thread #11


Hellmann-Zanetti report
http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/

Massei report:
http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

Rinaldi report:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Rinaldi_&_Boemia_Photo_Appendix

Vinci report:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Vinci.pdf

Italian Supreme Court:
http://www.thefreelancedesk.com/wp-...ning-on-Amanda-Knox-Case_-English-Version.pdf

Galati -Costagliola Prosecution Appeal Supreme Court of cassation:
http://thefreelancedesk.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Galati_cassation_English1.pdf

Conti- Vecchiotti report
http://knoxdnareport.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/translation-of-the-conti-vecchiotti-report2.pdf

Court of Appeals of Florence- Amanda Knox email
http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...3.12.15-Attn-Court-of-Appeals-of-Florence.pdf

pdf files:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PDF-Files.html

Stephanoni power point
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/testimonianza2.pdf

lists of books about the case:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...knox+story&sprefix=amanda+knox,stripbooks,243

galleries of crime scene photos:

warning: graphic

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/album.php?album_id=42
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PhotoGallery.html

tweets:
https://twitter.com/qn_lanazione
https://twitter.com/andreavogt

 

[Harmony 2]

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[Harmony 2]

Continue discussion here...

 

[sherlockh]

Well, that's not an argument that was made in court. Dr Lalli who performed the autopsy estimated time of death within at most 2-3 hours after the meal, given no gastric emptying occurred, which happens to match the 9 pm attack scenario.

Not true. Dr Lalli said emptying starts 'fairly quick'. Two to 3 hours was the total emptying time he was talking about.

massei report

He also stated that while it takes 2-3 hours for emptying to take place, ‚when it starts the emptying is fairly quick, when food has reached ...that semi-liquid or fluid aspect... emptying happens quickly‛ (page 32, transcripts).

 

[sherlockh]

Looking at the comments by Crini about the Naruto film at 9:26, I'm guessing that this is the statement below. Although I don't speak Italian, and can make little from the garbled electronic translation, one thing seems clear: this is a hypothetical discussion.

Thanks Otto. I thought that is what it was, but I am more than willing to wait for a full English translation so we can put it into context. Seems like he is attacking the defense here, and creates a sort of 'even if' scenario. Even if all the defense timings are real then still it means very little. He even points out that 21:26 fits well with Curatolo's testimony who says he saw them at about 21:30. JMO.

 

[otto]

Thanks Otto. I thought that is what it was, but I am more than willing to wait for a full English translation so we can put it into context. Seems like he is attacking the defense here, and creates a sort of 'even if' scenario. Even if all the defense timings are real then still it means very little. He even points out that 21:26 fits well with Curatolo's testimony who says he saw them at about 21:30. JMO.

I think so too, and that is what one would expect from closing arguments in a trial. The prosecution seems to be wrapping up the case and addressing defense points in the context of asserting that the accused are guilty, regardless of whether the court accepts or rejects those points.

I do not believe that the prosecution is suddenly contradicting the trial report (Massei), or contradicting the conclusion that the Amelie movie ended at 9:10 irrespective of human interaction with the computer.

 

[Amber29]

Let me bring this over from the previous thread since it was ignored... We wouldn't want people saying Dr Lalli actually used the stomach contents for a TOD

He did not narrow the time to 9pm though..

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/download/file.php?id=1902

"while reaffirming that the emptying of the stomach generally occurs between two hours and a maximum of 4 hours after eating (page 62, hearing on April 3, 2009). He added, however, that the digestive process is influenced by many factors like the type of meal, cold, stress, physical conditions and so on, and that to his knowledge there were no reliable studies that could establish "by how much the digestive process can be changed by these factors"


"Dr. Lalli to place the time of death between 21 hours and 30 minutes and 30 hours and 30 minutes prior to the first testing, thus between 20:00 pm and 04:00 am on November 1, 2007 and November 2, 2007."

So really the digestive state did not force him to narrow the TOD. He did not even narrow it to a couple of hours.

 

[MichaelSmith]

Let me bring this over from the previous thread since it was ignored... We wouldn't want people saying Dr Lalli actually used the stomach contents for a TOD

He did not narrow the time to 9pm though..

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/dow...le.php?id=1902

"while reaffirming that the emptying of the stomach generally occurs between two hours and a maximum of 4 hours after eating (page 62, hearing on April 3, 2009). He added, however, that the digestive process is influenced by many factors like the type of meal, cold, stress, physical conditions and so on, and that to his knowledge there were no reliable studies that could establish "by how much the digestive process can be changed by these factors"


"Dr. Lalli to place the time of death between 21 hours and 30 minutes and 30 hours and 30 minutes prior to the first testing, thus between 20:00 pm and 04:00 am on November 1, 2007 and November 2, 2007."

So really the digestive state did not force him to narrow the TOD. He did not even narrow it to a couple of hours.

Is this from Massei? I don't click PMF links. What page is it so I can have a look?

It'd help to use the Lalli transcripts even if they're only machine translations.

 

[otto]

Thanks Otto. He's acknowledging Naruto was opened but crashed and they dashed off to the cottage arriving as early as 9.30pm.

Now, what do you think Meredith was doing with Guede between 9.01pm and 9.30pm and can you lay out a scenario where Raffaele meets this complete stranger and is committing a brutal rape and murder with him considering just an hour earlier he was willing to help Jovana Popovic pick up a suit case? Why didn't they kill her?

How does Amanda introduce him? From the wiretap in Follain between Amanda and her Dad after hearing Guede had been arrested, she didn't even know his name except from hearing it on TV.

Raffaele puts out his hand to Guede and says "Hi, nice to meet you" like he did with so many others who testified and then what happens?

I think the prosecutor is examining defense arguments, and stating that even if there was human interaction with the Naruto film, that would not conflict with the prosecution theory that the pair are guilty. There's no reason to assume that the prosecution is suddenly agreeing with defense arguments and contradicting the Massei Report.

Knox is a great pretender. She will say whatever she thinks will advance her position. If we accept the "prank" theory, then it makes sense that Knox and Sollecito connected with Guede and went to the cottage. They could have turned off their cell phones at any time after leaving the apartment. Guede claims that Meredith was upset about missing money (which could have been taken at 4 PM as part of the prank). The calls to her bank could have been related to the missing money, where she was checking the balance to see about coming up with another 300€. Perhaps there were two stages to this murder: going to the cottage to see Meredith's reaction to the missing money, and then the prank. Possibly, while Guede had his bathroom emergency, Knox and Sollecito rang the doorbell and created a home invasion prank.

I'm not sure how it all happened. When we look at any murder, we can only speculate on what happened, as there are always pieces that are difficult to fit into place. It's also possible that after accidentally stabbing Meredith, their drugged up minds thought they should follow through and cover their tracks. It's possible that for Guede, the line between prank and actual assault was blurred. I doubt that any of the suspects would willingly admit that Knox cooked up a halloween prank, that things went horribly wrong, and that they then left Meredith to bleed to death in a locked room without her cell phones to cover their tracks. Sollecito and Guede could never admit that they allowed Knox to direct them to do something so horrendous.

 

[MichaelSmith]

I think the prosecutor is examining defense arguments, and stating that even if there was human interaction with the Naruto film, that would not conflict with the prosecution theory that the pair are guilty. There's no reason to assume that the prosecution is suddenly agreeing with defense arguments and contradicting the Massei Report.

Knox is a great pretender. She will say whatever she thinks will advance her position. If we accept the "prank" theory, then it makes sense that Knox and Sollecito connected with Guede and went to the cottage. They could have turned off their cell phones at any time after leaving the apartment. Guede claims that Meredith was upset about missing money (which could have been taken at 4 PM as part of the prank). The calls to her bank could have been related to the missing money, where she was checking the balance to see about coming up with another 300€. Perhaps there were two stages to this murder: going to the cottage to see Meredith's reaction to the missing money, and then the prank. Possibly, while Guede had his bathroom emergency, Knox and Sollecito rang the doorbell and created a home invasion prank.

I'm not sure how it all happened. When we look at any murder, we can only speculate on what happened, as there are always pieces that are difficult to fit into place. It's also possible that after accidentally stabbing Meredith, their drugged up minds thought they should follow through and cover their tracks. It's possible that for Guede, the line between prank and actual assault was blurred. I doubt that any of the suspects would willingly admit that Knox cooked up a halloween prank, that things went horribly wrong, and that they then left Meredith to bleed to death in a locked room without her cell phones to cover their tracks. Sollecito and Guede could never admit that they allowed Knox to direct them to do something so horrendous.

Incredible. I don't know what to say.

 

[Amber29]

Is this from Massei? I don't click PMF links. What page is it so I can have a look?

It'd help to use the Lalli transcripts even if they're only machine translations.

It's a PDF of Massei and I disagree with using machine translations of Lalli transcripts. Machine translations are not at all accurate.

 

[MichaelSmith]

It's a PDF of Massei and I disagree with using machine translations of Lalli transcripts. Machine translations are not at all accurate.

The machine translations aren't accurate seems to be a convenient excuse for people who don't want to acknowledge or work out what was really said Amber. It's happened many times since we finally got these transcripts and don't need to rely on old tabloid or inaccurate newspaper articles or books.

 

[Harmony 2]

Let me bring this over from the previous thread since it was ignored... We wouldn't want people saying Dr Lalli actually used the stomach contents for a TOD

He did not narrow the time to 9pm though..

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/dow...le.php?id=1902

"while reaffirming that the emptying of the stomach generally occurs between two hours and a maximum of 4 hours after eating (page 62, hearing on April 3, 2009). He added, however, that the digestive process is influenced by many factors like the type of meal, cold, stress, physical conditions and so on, and that to his knowledge there were no reliable studies that could establish "by how much the digestive process can be changed by these factors"


"Dr. Lalli to place the time of death between 21 hours and 30 minutes and 30 hours and 30 minutes prior to the first testing, thus between 20:00 pm and 04:00 am on November 1, 2007 and November 2, 2007."

So really the digestive state did not force him to narrow the TOD. He did not even narrow it to a couple of hours.

Your link does not work but the quotes are in the following link on pages 114 and 116:

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

Is this the same translator we encountered issues with before?

 

[Amber29]

Your link does not work but the quotes are in the following link on pages 114 and 116:

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

Is this the same translator we encountered issues with before?

Thank you unsure why the link isn't working but those are accurate page numbers I just found them in my copy.

No pmf translated Massei with a large group of people, I guess we can all decide who's translations to trust. I don't particularly like using translations by AK herself.

 

[Amber29]

The machine translations aren't accurate seems to be a convenient excuse for people who don't want to acknowledge or work out what was really said Amber. It's happened many times since we finally got these transcripts and don't need to rely on old tabloid or inaccurate newspaper articles or books.

Michael it isn't an excuse. Machine translations lose meaning when it mistranslates words, sometimes I can't even make out what is being said. I'm ok with witness testimony sometimes, but dealing with experts testimony and reports not so much. I'm sorry you think I'm using an excuse, I have always said I don't like relying on machine translations. Do you think Massei didn't accurately portray what Lalli said?

I have never linked to a tabloid, as I know very well it lot of misinformation.

 

[SMK]

Incredible. I don't know what to say.

BBM - I think Otto makes a lot of sense, and I believe it's only incredible and leaves one speechless, if one is totally sold on the lone wolf theory.

Recall that when the murder scene was originally discovered, Batistelli of the Postal Police immediately said that he felt the point of entry had been staged, introducing the idea of the "inside job".

Adding to this , Napoleoni and Mignini felt the locked door and the duvet indicated the presence of a female, and that the idea of a staged burglary might point to the boys downstairs (remember that Rudy often brought them pot, and stayed for the party).

Ergo, when Guede's presence was discovered and Lumumba let go, it wasn't as though the investigators skipped the idea of the lone wolf "to save face". They hadn't believed in a lone wolf in the first place.

 

[otto]

Thank you unsure why the link isn't working but those are accurate page numbers I just found them in my copy.

No pmf translated Massei with a large group of people, I guess we can all decide who's translations to trust. I don't particularly like using translations by AK herself.

I usually link the Massei Report translation through the West Seattle newspaper, as it appears neutral:

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2010/08/10/news/amanda-knox-motivation-document-first-english-tra

The translation was prepared by an international group of well educated people, many of whom are professional translators. They did the work without payment, and for the sole purpose of ensuring that the English speaking community knew what was going on in the trial without relying on media (which appeared to be influenced by a PR firm). The work was first translated, and then edited to ensure accuracy. No one connected with the trial has questioned the accuracy of the translation.

 

[Katody]

Not true. Dr Lalli said emptying starts 'fairly quick'. Two to 3 hours was the total emptying time he was talking about.

massei report

No, he said time of death not more than 2-3 hours after meal.

Massei report:

Dr. Lalli specified that [110] death was considered as occurring not more than two to three hours after eating (page 47 of the hearing transcript, and the adjustment described in the footnote on February 13, 2008). He stated that the emptying of the stomach occurs between a minimum of two hours and a maximum of four hours after the meal is consumed (page 62, transcripts) and also confirmed that the duodenum was empty (page 63).

bbm.

 

[otto]

Michael it isn't an excuse. Machine translations lose meaning when it mistranslates words, sometimes I can't even make out what is being said. I'm ok with witness testimony sometimes, but dealing with experts testimony and reports not so much. I'm sorry you think I'm using an excuse, I have always said I don't like relying on machine translations. Do you think Massei didn't accurately portray what Lalli said?

I have never linked to a tabloid, as I know very well it lot of misinformation.

I absolutely agree. Anyone that speaks more than one language, and who has used an electronic translation to check the accuracy, knows that the meaning is usually completely skewed. A simple, applicable example is the translation of the word "courtroom". We should all know by now that the electronic translation from Italian to English is "classroom". If that word is screwed up, I think it's fair to assume an awful lot of other words are equally screwed up. Crini is translated to "horsehair".

An electronic translation of "Crini in the courtroom" is "horse hair in the classroom" ... and from there on, it's complete mumbo jumbo.

 

[Katody]

Let me bring this over from the previous thread since it was ignored... We wouldn't want people saying Dr Lalli actually used the stomach contents for a TOD

He did not narrow the time to 9pm though..

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/download/file.php?id=1902

"while reaffirming that the emptying of the stomach generally occurs between two hours and a maximum of 4 hours after eating (page 62, hearing on April 3, 2009). He added, however, that the digestive process is influenced by many factors like the type of meal, cold, stress, physical conditions and so on, and that to his knowledge there were no reliable studies that could establish "by how much the digestive process can be changed by these factors"


"Dr. Lalli to place the time of death between 21 hours and 30 minutes and 30 hours and 30 minutes prior to the first testing, thus between 20:00 pm and 04:00 am on November 1, 2007 and November 2, 2007."

So really the digestive state did not force him to narrow the TOD. He did not even narrow it to a couple of hours.

Dr Lalli had no information about the time of last meal. He just said the death occurred 2-3 hours max after it, considering full stomach and empty duodenum.

Considering Dr. Lalli's opinion which is in agreement with the literature and also other points of evidence (time of last meal, time of Meredith's coming home, etc.) We can narrow the ToD much more precisely than Dr. Lalli could.