• #21
What about the wanted female terrorists?cant they just cover there faces and blend into our communities un hindered.plus it always creeps me out how a muslim woman thinks people watch her face and she wants to cover it.sounds kinda sepratist to me
 
  • #22
<Being veiled has nothing to do with terrorism>

i beg to differ. it has everything to do with terrorism. and oppression of women by men, and by women who go along with it.
 
  • #23
eastender said:
I found this story interesting. Things seem to be a-changing in the UK. For years we have been forced to walk on egg-shells around certain ethnic minorities with many of them seeming to have far more rights in our country than we would have in theirs. The government has NOT been putting the British people first for a long time and a lot are angry.

I think Jack Straw is very brave to suggest the removal of veils and on a radio survey this morning 99 per cent of the population agreed with him.
Personally, it does not bother me one way or the other whether they wear veils or not it is their choice (or their husbands). As long as respect goes both ways.
Although the government has said that this is Jack Straws personal views and not their own I truly think that there may come a time when immigrants will have to make more of an effort to intergrate if they wish to live in this country.
I am sure I read somewhere they are going to have to speak English, cant remember where though.
We have very similar problems down here....some of our beaches are no go zones as they are in heavily populated Muslim areas...some of our public pools have special hours for the muslim ladies to swim....no men allowed.
Our goverment is starting to toughen up a bit....with a grasp of the English language to be a requirement of residency...
I am not a biased person and I like to treat people how they treat me...but sometimes its hard to stay quite as you watch your country go down the drain.
Australia..love it or leave it...its that simple
 
  • #24
dingo said:
We have very similar problems down here....some of our beaches are no go zones as they are in heavily populated Muslim areas...some of our public pools have special hours for the muslim ladies to swim....no men allowed.
Our goverment is starting to toughen up a bit....with a grasp of the English language to be a requirement of residency...
I am not a biased person and I like to treat people how they treat me...but sometimes its hard to stay quite as you watch your country go down the drain.
Australia..love it or leave it...its that simple
On the flipside, expats living in Indonesia should be forced to learn Bahasa Indonesia, dress more conservatively, and be urged to wear the hijab.
 
  • #25
If thats where they choose do live..then yes....they should
 
  • #26
Jacobi said:
On the flipside, expats living in Indonesia should be forced to learn Bahasa Indonesia, dress more conservatively, and be urged to wear the hijab.
Well, I wonder if the Indonesians would give me a free house, free medical treatment, a cheque for £4000 for a new car and give me an allowance each week to send home to England for my wife and kids who are yet to join me.
That is what draws many immigrants here. They know they will get all that and more AND THAT is the reason there are old ladies starving to death in hospital beds because the government cant afford nurses to feed them.
This country is a joke!
(And yes the £4000 for the car is true, the cheque they used was drawn on the government welfare scheme)
 
  • #27
eastender said:
Well, I wonder if the Indonesians would give me a free house, free medical treatment, a cheque for £4000 for a new car and give me an allowance each week to send home to England for my wife and kids who are yet to join me.
That is what draws many immigrants here. They know they will get all that and more AND THAT is the reason there are old ladies starving to death in hospital beds because the government cant afford nurses to feed them.
This country is a joke!
(And yes the £4000 for the car is true, the cheque they used was drawn on the government welfare scheme)
That sounds like BNP propaganda. If you do your research you will find that migrants in the UK, when taken in their totality, actually contribute more than 30 billion pounds sterling in taxes. If you subtract all the expenses they still contribute a net total of over 2 billion pounds sterling to Gordon Brown's cash register, much of which goes to funding the NHS.
 
  • #28
PlasmaFiend024 said:
What about the wanted female terrorists?cant they just cover there faces and blend into our communities un hindered.plus it always creeps me out how a muslim woman thinks people watch her face and she wants to cover it. sounds kinda sepratist to me

Lots of people use dress as a way of idntifying themselves as separate from the established majority. Hippies, punks, goths, Amish .... Are we going to outlaw distinctive dress because it is unnerving to SOME that not everybody wants to be just like them?

It looks like Straw's comments are causing him more trouble than he anticipated.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1819668.ece
 
  • #29
Jacobi said:
That sounds like BNP propaganda. If you do your research you will find that migrants in the UK, when taken in their totality, actually contribute more than 30 billion pounds sterling in taxes. If you subtract all the expenses they still contribute a net total of over 2 billion pounds sterling to Gordon Brown's cash register, much of which goes to funding the NHS.
You are way out my friend with the BNP. I base my opinion on my own life experience having worked in financial institutions all my working life and cashed the cheques for these people (many of them known business people) claiming milk tokens, free school meals and social security payments. I am the one who handed them the dollar bills and watched them get into their 2006 vehicles. It became a standing joke.
Many people not involved in the actual payment would know this.
Some of my family are self employed and as such HAVE to keep printed till rolls for all retail transactions for the tax and VAT man. I have never walked into a foreign owned takeaway food shop in the UK and seen the owner using a till or even if they have a till the sale is NEVER rung in so there is NO official record of that sale.
 
  • #30
I am not stupid and I do realise that there are many immigrants who DO contribute but the British Government having NO IDEA how many immigrants there are in this country. Contributing or non-contributing. I would be more interested in how much in welfare these people cost.
I have always wanted to live in Spain - I wonder if they will pay me welfare to do so?
 
  • #31
cypros-- no, the issue here is covering your face. because, you can't really hear the person as well because a lot of communication is actually lip and face reading. and in this case, the connection with fundamentalist islam, and therefore, terrorism.
in our society, there already ARE dress codes. and there are in others!! if a woman was to go into a fundmamentalist muslim area and go around WITHOUT your face covered, not only do they ask you to cover it, but they'll kill you!! in the days when hippies were controversial and deemed a subversive threat to society, they WERE asked to leave many places and rules WERE enacted to eonforce dress codes. and today schools are trying to set rules for that as well (and having a tough time i must say).
if a goth kid were to walk into school with a mask on, i'm sure s/he would be told the mask needs to come off.
'anything goes' has never been the established norm. on the street perhaps, but not in board meetings, in restaurants, in politics, etc. you get the picture. are we going to start seeing goth kids running for political office? is someone with a face & body full of tattoos going to be president someday? how about going into a fine dining establishment and be waited on by someone with a 'grill' in their teeth or some lady dressed like a hooker? what if you go into a hospital and there's a nurse with piercings all over her face and they had to hire her because she was "wicca" and they didn't want her to sue for discrimination? am i going to go into a state office only to be helped by some lady wearing a jihab? i sure as hell hope not. civilized society has always set rules and standards, that's what they do. it's not all about every individual's freedom of self-expression & their religion and whatnot all the time.
 
  • #32
eastender said:
You are way out my friend with the BNP. I base my opinion on my own life experience having worked in financial institutions all my working life and cashed the cheques for these people (many of them known business people) claiming milk tokens, free school meals and social security payments. I am the one who handed them the dollar bills and watched them get into their 2006 vehicles. It became a standing joke.
Many people not involved in the actual payment would not know this.
Some of my family are self employed and as such HAVE to keep printed till rolls for all retail transactions for the tax and VAT man. I have never walked into a foreign owned takeaway food shop in the UK and seen the owner using a till or even if they have a till the sale is NEVER rung in so there is NO official record of that sale.
There are many who take advantage of the system and exploit any loophole for monetary gain, such is life, but there are also many who do not. Taken as a whole the migrant workforce is a positive on the UK economy.

As for your experiences with foreign-owned takeaways, I'm actually quite stunned because, by and large, I've had the opposite experience when living there. Sure, a few transactions may be done off the books in the black, but that is true of most small businesses, foreign owned or not.

eastender said:
I am not stupid and I do realise that there are many immigrants who DO contribute but the British Government having NO IDEA how many immigrants there are in this country. Contributing or non-contributing. I would be more interested in how much in welfare these people cost.
I have always wanted to live in Spain - I wonder if they will pay me welfare to do so?
Well, the immigrants not in the system that the government can't track aren't drawing on benefits. They may be working illegally, but in that case the employer is equally culpable.


I really think your personal experiences have clouded your view on foreigners as a whole, and I think that's a shame because there is much vitality and promise in a harmonious, multi-cultural UK.

Anyway, I don't think I can change your opinion and we're getting off-topic, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.
 
  • #33
reb said:
cypros-- no, the issue here is covering your face. because, you can't really hear the person as well because a lot of communication is actually lip and face reading. and in this case, the connection with fundamentalist islam, and therefore, terrorism.
in our society, there already ARE dress codes. and there are in others!! if a woman was to go into a fundmamentalist muslim area and go around WITHOUT your face covered, not only do they ask you to cover it, but they'll kill you!! in the days when hippies were controversial and deemed a subversive threat to society, they WERE asked to leave many places and rules WERE enacted to eonforce dress codes. and today schools are trying to set rules for that as well (and having a tough time i must say).
if a goth kid were to walk into school with a mask on, i'm sure s/he would be told the mask needs to come off.
'anything goes' has never been the established norm. on the street perhaps, but not in board meetings, in restaurants, in politics, etc. you get the picture. are we going to start seeing goth kids running for political office? is someone with a face & body full of tattoos going to be president someday? how about going into a fine dining establishment and be waited on by someone with a 'grill' in their teeth or some lady dressed like a hooker? what if you go into a hospital and there's a nurse with piercings all over her face and they had to hire her because she was "wicca" and they didn't want her to sue for discrimination? am i going to go into a state office only to be helped by some lady wearing a jihab? i sure as hell hope not. civilized society has always set rules and standards, that's what they do. it's not all about every individual's freedom of self-expression & their religion and whatnot all the time.

We are not talking about businesses being forced to hire someone that may be unappealing or intimidating to the clientel. Mr Straw condemned wearing veils because he sees them as a " statement of separation and difference".If he is going to condemn a certain form of dress for such a reason, then he had better be prepared to condemn the punkers and goths, the Indian women (who wear saris), and any other group of people who chose to dress in a manner different from the majority. They are all " statements of separation and difference".

As for your fears of being tended to by a wiccan, this is unlikely to happen in the professions you mention. People who chose to have excessive piercings, tattoos, teeth grills, etc. have to compete for job like the rest of us. They also have to gain a certain level of education and/or training to have the positions you mention. There will always be someone that fits the standards of "normal" appearance" who is equally or better qualified that a professional employer will prefer to hire. My nephew has made the choice to wear his hair as a mohawk. He has piercings and tattoos. He is also not pursuing a college education. The only place he can get a job is in a tattoo parlor. That's his problem. I wouldn't hire him either! But I don't think his "look" should be banned.

Now if your fears of a Goth becoming president DOES come true, and in everywhere public service we seek we find wiccans and hookers, then you better HOPE that the precedent has not been set to force those who choose to dress differently (in this case that would be YOU) to abandon their personal preferences and dress like the newly established norm!! :D
 
  • #34
I think Straw should fight fire with fire. He should wear a hat and cover his nose and mouth with a bandana, so he looks like an old Western bank robber. Then lets see how they like talking to someone whose face they can't see. Facial expressions are a part of face-to-face communication. No doubt in my mind!
 
  • #35
well... the day that america becomes so spinelessly politically correct that we sit back and allow muslims to take over the country and take it back to the stone age, and all women are walking around with sheets covering their faces and i am the exception to the rule, and there is nothing left of western european culture... then i will go live somewhere else... if there's anywhere left to go. but hopefully, i will be dead by then, and that'll be a good thing!
 
  • #36
as i said before what prevents a terrorist from covering her face and blending into our communities.yeah and the amish ,goth etc.dont bomb innocent women and chldren
 
  • #37
Jacobi said:
SNIPPED


I really think your personal experiences have clouded your view on foreigners as a whole, and I think that's a shame because there is much vitality and promise in a harmonious, multi-cultural UK.

Anyway, I don't think I can change your opinion and we're getting off-topic, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.[/QUOTE

To live in a harmonious multi-cultural UK is everyones dream but while there continues to be different rules for different races with the host race being bottom of the pile it will never be.
I apologize for going off-topic.
 
  • #38
PlasmaFiend024 said:
as i said before what prevents a terrorist from covering her face and blending into our communities.yeah and the amish ,goth etc.dont bomb innocent women and chldren

No, but lots of people dresses like you and I do!
 

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