Criminal profiling & psychological evaluation

  • #21
That makes better sense than the idea of the Ramseys spending their time reading about beheading children. I tried a web search for a list of beheaded children in America, and unless I just didn't think of a good enough search term to exclude the foreign countries, there is any list of American kids.

I know of one person who thinks that the writer simply couldn't remember any Islamic militant names or just couldn't think of one that sounded authentic enough, so they just stuck with foreign faction.

In fact, I'll be gracious enough to give it to you. If any of you have read this, you'll know that I am serious when I say that you REALLY want to take the kids out of the room before you read it.

http://www.bettybowers.com/ramseys.html

Here's the segment from it specifically:

A very well appointed kitchen. BURKE, a young boy, is sitting at the kitchen table eating a bowl of cereal. PATSY, a plumb woman with dark hair and pasty skin, wearing an outfit too dressy for breakfast, enters the room. She is furiously scribbling on a yellow legal pad.

BURKE
What are you doing Mommy?
PATSY
I'm trying to decide what happened to JonBenet.
BURKE
Last time I saw her she was playing doctor with Daddy.
PATSY
Eat your cereal!
PATSY continues to muse while writing on a pad.
PATSY (CONT.)
Maybe she ran away. No, that makes me look like a bad mother. Maybe..she has been kidnapped by a molester!
BURKE
Daddy?
PATSY
I'm not talking to you!
PATSY scratches out words on her pad.
PATSY (CONT.)
Maybe...she has been kidnapped by a colored man!
BURKE
You mean like Susan Smith's kids?
PATSY
I said eat your cereal. No, that didn't work. Besides, I keep forgetting we're not in Atlanta. Like we have colored men in Boulder! I mean, HELLO? Never around when you need 'em . . .
PATSY scratches out more words.
PATSY (CONT.)
Oh, I know! She was kidnapped by Osama Bin Laden. Burke, do you know, is it Ben or Bin Laden?
BURKE
I don't know.
PATSY
I don't either. I hate foreign people and the silly names they call themselves. JonBenet was - -

PATSY strikes through the words she has just written.
PATSY (CONT.)
JonBenet was taken by....I'm just going to go with Foreign Faction.
PATSY writes these words on the pad.
PATSY (CONT.)
Foreign Faction. I like that. Maybe they'll bomb Libya again.
PATSY laughs. BURKE winces.

It's written in comedy, but from her mouth to the ears of the gods!
 
  • #22
Oh, man--that was BAD!!! So bad, I'm forwarding it around right now!!
 
  • #23
I was kidding around, but this reminds me, some nice person pointed out that Burke always seemed pretty passive.

Wasn't JR always pretty passive too? That's the impression of him that I get at least.
 
  • #24
Yes, he's definitely his father's son.

T-Rex, did you read the WHOLE thing!

I have to admit, I cringed the first time I read it!
 
  • #25
SuperDave said:
In fact, I'll be gracious enough to give it to you. If any of you have read this, you'll know that I am serious when I say that you REALLY want to take the kids out of the room before you read it.......
It's written in comedy, but from her mouth to the ears of the gods!

Somehow I knew I had to keep reading until the punch line, and it really was funny. Even if it was pretty crude and stretching the truth way too far,the guy's a writer, and it really was very funny. I doubt that JR was ever energetic enough to molest JonBenet, of course. Sometimes I don't even try to read the longest articles because of my diabetes-damaged central vision, especially when I know they're someone's theory that we've discussed before.

Which reminds me, someone asked me in a private message if the Members' Theories thread is going to be brought back now that Karr's history. I never
posted one, so it's not that important to me personally , but has it been deleted to save space or something? Maybe there weren't enough hits on it?
 
  • #26
Somehow I knew I had to keep reading until the punch line, and it really was funny. Even if it was pretty crude and stretching the truth way too far,the guy's a writer, and it really was very funny.

Well, like I said, Eagle1, it's not to be taken literally. But I think that is essentially what happened.

I doubt that JR was ever energetic enough to molest JonBenet, of course.

Sometimes I wonder myself.
 
  • #27
From Wikipedia: A 1999 US Department of Justice Study concluded that between 1976 and 1997 in the U.S., mothers were responsible for a higher share of children killed during infancy while fathers were more likely to have been responsible for the murders of children age 8 or older. Furthermore, 52% of the children killed by their mothers were male (maternal filicide), while 57% of the children killed by their fathers were male (paternal filicide).

Interesting statistics, but I can find nothing about the psychology of it, and we don't even know the names of the 3 kids beheaded in California, the 3 in Texas, the ones in Baltimore, just Adam Walsh and Precious Doe, so far as I know. Can someone think of better search terms that don't switch us off to all the foreign countries that do beheading almost as a habit?

Wouldn't the psychology be a lot different when victims are children instead of adults? Just starting out on this wild goose chase, I'd think so.
 
  • #28
It might be. Thing is, we're trying to use logic to figure something that has no logic to it.
 
  • #29
SuperDave said:
It might be. Thing is, we're trying to use logic to figure something that has no logic to it.

Right, there doesn't seem to be any logic. But about the apparent Psychology of the case, here's a copy/paste of part of my post in the Accidents thread, because it goes along with the title of this one.

"
"Filicide-Suicide: Common Factors in Parents Who Kill Their ...
Several recent cases of filicide, child murder by parents, ... prior to committing filicide and 40 percent had recently seen a physician or psychiatrist. ...

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/4/496
Filicide-Suicide: Common Factors in Parents Who Kill Their ...
cent had recently seen a physician or psychiatrist. In ... Offense characteristics: total children, children in filicide, child age, ...

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/33/4/496.pdf "
__________________

This 9-pg pdf file can be enlarged a lot for reading. Some of the things I noted from it, these parental killings are only about 2 per cent of homicides. We may have a habit of saying we know a lot of these cases when there really aren't a lot, should always be as specific as possible, names, places, and whatever we know. Studies showed that in about half of them, if I remember correctly what I reported in the Accident thread before throwing out my notes, none of the 8 subcategories of motives could be detected.

Those 8 included "altruistic", based on feelings the child would be better off, which seemed to be the majority motive, spousal revenge only a very small percent. FBI man R. Hazelwood reported that one mother baked her little daughter in a roasting pan and when her husband lifted the lid she told him, "You love her so much, here she is," the Snow White syndrome, only one case, very rare. Almost half had had some kind of psychiatric helt contacts, and/or had been hospitalized.

As my signature always says, my opinions are subject to change if I read something like this article, found in a web search.

None of us were there, and we have no evidence on Patsy, not even the fibers. Because very obviously if she had the presence of mind to not leave fingerprints or DNA, she also knew not to leave fibers. Those can so easily be planted, and so over done, way too many, as to point to that. Our credibility suffers if we're too emphatic that she was abnormally angry or whatever, I think. All of us saw the interviews, and would in her shoes have been just as irritated at the bungling cops' jumping to conclusions instead of investigating other too-complicated-for-them-or-their-boss leads.

Rupert, about the "time" cult and movie, yes, it's a suspicious coincidence that particular movie (video?) was being shown at that very time, in that very place. I encourage you to look into it. And were you around when we discussed the new Denver airport having masonic symbols in its floors, a picture gallery in the bsmt with pictures of women in coffins? Some felt that one picture looked like JonBenet. I didn't think so but maybe it was supposed to be, for all I know. Things found by googling masonry years ago may have all been removed by now, but might the "Unity" denomination which evidently doesn't teach that Christ was the only One to die for us and allegedly includes all cults, be a masonic idea? Please don't quote me because I'm just one of the least of us and never claim to definitely know, don't want to be famous. I'm not an authority. "May have" had some experience with their thinking musicians and good students are stars, overachievers, needing to be stopped, which I'm really afraid was JonBenet's and Danielle Van Dam's problem. Both of their mothers were ambitious about them, getting them language and music and dance lessons at such an early age.

Karr's not the first one to have confessed. Some prisoner confessed to both these little girls' murders, and was disbelieved. They seem mentally ill but it could also mean the real killer is still alive and getting people to confess, for his own entertainment. Killers are often cop wannabe's and interject themselves into the cases, we've all heard.

In one of the books about the Dallas assassination, I read that witnesses were threatened in order to silence them, which probahly happened with Barnhill and Melody Stanton, that they'd get labelled drunks and prostitutes and it would stick. They'd never be findicated. In the JBR case, we've heard of some hate-propagandists badmouthing the family, which I consider evidence that outsiders were involved and railroading them, accounting for the strange way they've acted. Maybe there is some logic somewhere in this case after all but we'd have to dig so deep it might be risky? Sure, Patsy was going overboard but that didn't justify what happened.

Naturally we'd feel all our friends are betraying us, and lots more resentment if all this happened to any of us. It's really too much to do to one family. If Patsy wasn't irritated she'd be awfully abnormal, and JR's so passive, it seems to me, that'd be irritating too. There was also the suspicious flimsy excuses not to find the body but to make JR do it, almost as if everyone knew what was coming down before it happened, some force that even officials just don't mess with?

Some say satanism and other undergrounds infiltrate, and there was that dictionary snapshot inserted into the evidence folder after the crime scene had been processed w/out any dictionary, which I think is also evidence, don't you? ST just reported it w/out evidently thinking much about what it meant, not investigating where it came from. Thank goodness he did at least report it. And that there were no footprints in the frost on JonBenet's covered balcony.
 
  • #30
Those 8 included "altruistic", based on feelings the child would be better off, which seemed to be the majority motive,

Are you at all familiar with Patsy's statement about JB being better off dead? Hmm...

None of us were there,

True

and we have no evidence on Patsy,

Are you kidding? Would you like to see a typewritten list?

not even the fibers. Because very obviously if she had the presence of mind to not leave fingerprints or DNA, she also knew not to leave fibers.

How do you figure? Everyone knows about fingerprints and DNA. Fibers is, up until shows like CSI, pretty obscure. Even "Law & Order" didn't do much on them until around the time Angie Harmon joined the show.

Those can so easily be planted, and so over done, way too many, as to point to that.

How? How did they get to her sweater when it's likely she never took it off that night?

Our credibility suffers if we're too emphatic that she was abnormally angry or whatever, I think.

You wouldn't say that if you experienced what I have. I know what cancer does to the human mind. It alters you. It ruins you mentally, especially with the drugs that go along with it. It's not just the teenagers who are getting hold of some powerful stuff. Adults have some pretty strong goofballs too.

All of us saw the interviews, and would in her shoes have been just as irritated at the bungling cops' jumping to conclusions instead of investigating other too-complicated-for-them-or-their-boss leads.

They chased down quite a few leads. Not their fault the evidence came back to her.

Naturally we'd feel all our friends are betraying us, and lots more resentment if all this happened to any of us. It's really too much to do to one family. If Patsy wasn't irritated she'd be awfully abnormal,

Then why didn't she ever get "irritated" at the killer? Or what said killer put her daughter through? Why was it always "me, me, me" all the time? Put down the mirror once in a while.
 
  • #31
[Nuisanceposter] I can't say for sure that no parent would have beheading on the brain - imagine a parent whose child has been killed unintentionally and needs to make a fake ransom note to distract attention away from them - I believe this parent could very well come up with the idea of saying the child would be beheaded, especially if she was "in character" and working her brain as hard as she could to make it sound like some vicious foreign faction killed her child.

I'm a parent and I know killers behead their victims often enough - if I was desperate enough to write a fake RN to shift suspicion to someone else, I would definitely throw that in there, perhaps even thinking that most people would never think a parent would say that about their own child.
I think that's exactly why the RN author (imo it was Patsy) threw 'beheading' in there - so that no one should think a parent had actually written the note. That was the motive.
Eagle1
I'm a parent too, of 5 grownups and 3 grandkids, and know about these other cases, Dahmer, Peterson, etc., and no way would I, in the cruel shock of losing my child, knowing the smoking gun has been planted on my property, or even if I was the killer, ever think of beheading or dismemberment.

We'll agree to disagree on that.
But imagine you had to write something to direct attention away from you as the parent - for that obviously was the purpose of the ransom note. What would you concoct?
In a PDI theory, we're not talking about a normal parent, we are talking about a parent who wanted to save her hide and not turn herself in to the police for what she had done. And for such a parent to write about 'beheading' would make perfect sense imo. For the purpose was to make the note look as bizarre as possible lay out a false trail, a classic red herring. And the fact that JB did already have a head wound could have given Patsy the idea too.

I think by the time Patsy wrote the RN, she did not function as 'parent' anymore. All that was on her mind was a primitive egoistic self-survival instinct which directed her actions.
 
  • #32
rashomon said:
...........
But imagine you had to write something to direct attention away from you as the parent - for that obviously was the purpose of the ransom note. What would you concoct?
............ And the fact that JB did already have a head wound could have given Patsy the idea too.

I think by the time Patsy wrote the RN, she did not function as 'parent' anymore. All that was on her mind was a primitive egoistic self-survival instinct which directed her actions.

Of course I hear you guys and understand what you're saying, and possibly Patsy was that bizarre, (JAR said "flashy"). I'm just saying I personally wouldn't have ever thought of the word beheading. Or of anything else, probably. At times I've been told I'm too gentle for my own good, but only a few people here have openly said they'd think of such a thing in such a desperate situation. Who knows, I've never "been there". But neither am I bowled over by anyone else's opinion. I'm still waiting for some new fact, which may never come, but we obviously just don't right now have it all.
 
  • #33
rashomon said:
I think that's exactly why the RN author (imo it was Patsy) threw 'beheading' in there - so that no one should think a parent had actually written the note. That was the motive.

But imagine you had to write something to direct attention away from you as the parent - for that obviously was the purpose of the ransom note. What would you concoct?
In a PDI theory, we're not talking about a normal parent, we are talking about a parent who wanted to save her hide and not turn herself in to the police for what she had done. And for such a parent to write about 'beheading' would make perfect sense imo. For the purpose was to make the note look as bizarre as possible lay out a false trail, a classic red herring. And the fact that JB did already have a head wound could have given Patsy the idea too.

I think by the time Patsy wrote the RN, she did not function as 'parent' anymore. All that was on her mind was a primitive egoistic self-survival instinct which directed her actions.
I think the note as a whole was ruse,nothing but a ruse,inc. the $118,000,which they both knew was JR's bonus.The housekeeper might could have found out about that by seeing a pay stub or something around the house,in which case they knew it would be easy to point the finger at her.If not her, then someone JR worked with could be fingered.
 
  • #34
I have to agree. I don't think Patsy the mother wrote the RN, I think Patsy the survivor wrote the RN. I think she was in full-on "save your 🤬🤬🤬" mode and focused solely on providing an explanantion for the disappearance of JonBenet and a distraction to shift suspicion to anyone other than a Ramsey. She needed to throw everything in to make sure something would stick, the more brutal and unsavory, the better.
 
  • #35
I think by the time Patsy wrote the RN, she did not function as 'parent' anymore. All that was on her mind was a primitive egoistic self-survival instinct which directed her actions.

Self-preservation is a powerful instinct, especially for one who has faced death before.

Of course I hear you guys and understand what you're saying, and possibly Patsy was that bizarre, (JAR said "flashy").

A lot of people thought she was a weird woman.

I'm just saying I personally wouldn't have ever thought of the word beheading. Or of anything else, probably. At times I've been told I'm too gentle for my own good, but only a few people here have openly said they'd think of such a thing in such a desperate situation. Who knows, I've never "been there".

You'd be amazed what people can do when they're backed into a corner!
 
  • #36
Thanks but no thanks, I've heard all the lists, and NOBODY has ever proven PR did it, at all, not in the least.

All those things can be interpreted two or more ways, and we've done all that. There's simply something missing.

The pro's know it and have given up. Are we, including myself, big- heads or what, thinking we can uncover something more? Who knows, we really might. It's just a fascinating compelling mystery we can't put down. We're just "brainstorming", and we know each others' lists pretty well by now, right?

The challenge is to come up with something new.
 
  • #37
Thanks but no thanks, I've heard all the lists, and NOBODY has ever proven PR did it, at all, not in the least.

Could be no one's bothered to check it out.

All those things can be interpreted two or more ways, and we've done all that. There's simply something missing.

Unfortunately, that's true. On an individual basis, each piece is weak. But all together, the pieces become a picture.

The pro's know it and have given up. Are we, including myself, big- heads or what, thinking we can uncover something more? Who knows, we really might.

I have to try.

It's just a fascinating compelling mystery we can't put down. We're just "brainstorming", and we know each others' lists pretty well by now, right?

The challenge is to come up with something new.

Yeah.
 

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