Dr. Arpad Voss testimony (Oakridge Laboratories)

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JB asks Dr. V protocols ....don't try to contaminate these areas with gasoline....common sense...samples were obtained that contained gasoline....where evidence was ...free of trash debris....obvious source of samples ...object -0 overrule.......example trash aerosol, etc....spiled softdrink can produce false readings......

these are protocols....wrote those protocols in response to investigator who wanted to collected samples over a large area ...don't want to collect samples where a large area of trash...don't want samples from trash....correct unless trash is part of the scene....in large area questions came up where should collection be - common sense.....in a big field.....can create a false ....sure .....

evidence is evidence


divining rods - Dr. V smiles - giggles -

object - sidear

 

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Dr. Vass now join the lawyers and judge at Sidebar. PARTY!

 

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Bill Sheaffer says it is highly unusual for a witness to go to the sidebar and it has happened twice in this case. He also says there are not usually this many sidebars.

 

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Continued Cross examination of Dr. Vass by JB.

He knows what divining rods are. They are an antannae used to locate specific properties of specific materials. It could be made of a coat hanger. He has taught on this subject. It is a hobby of his that teaches wonderful scientific principals.

Has he been offered a million dollars to prove this? JA objection - sustained.

HHBP - Mr. Baez - get to the points I said you could get to.

You also put electronic leashes on flies? JA objection - sustained.

This is the first time he has given this type of testimony in a court of law.

There is a paper by Dr. Staphalopolis (sp LOL) that looked at whole bodies who also identified 4 components, but not chloroform. He is the only other person who has used entire bodies. Others have only used pieces of tissues which he would not feel compatible. Dr. S was looking at single time point - Oakridge did a 4 to 5 year study.

To him, the smell of human decomp is unique. 12/14/08 - statement to Knoxville newspaper - smells like a potato going bad - amazingly similar.

JB conferring with DS.

Key marker of human decomp - halogenated fluoride compounds. They did not find this in the car or in the positive control. The positive control was of a blanket of a body of a child that had been in the trunk of a car for three months, but he did not know any other history of the control. Nevertheless, they found the 3 primary sulfur compounds. The purpose was to determine if the compounds found in the ICA car, could be formed in the trunk.

Of the 30 compounds found, once the eliminations are made for overlaps or duplicates, 10 remain - and of those 10, 8 were found in this car.

He did not personally collect the samples. He agrees he does not know the history of the samples. He did not know the history of the junk yard samples, the Montana car, blanket from that case. He did not take a carpet sample from that car.

He agreed this is the first time he collected a car trunk carpet sample and stated the wonderful thing about forensic science is that every sample is unique.

JB conferring with DS.

Is he a member of the Academy of Forensic Sciences? No, not currently.

He is not a member of the American Board of Anthropology.

He is not a member of any professional organizations. He said his background is so diverse that he didn't know which to join.

He is being paid to be creative and to think outside of the box.

No further questions by JB.

 

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REDIRECT Examination of Dr. Vass by JA -

Scientific curiosity has governed his work rather than financial. The last 20 years of his career has centered around the chemistry of decomp. He does not feel he has a financial interest in this case.

He recalled his depo by JB in 2010. He had to confer with someone else regarding the procedures of the royalties at the time his depo was taken. He had no interest in that. He found out afterwards.

In seeking a control sample of carpet, he tried to find the most contaminated carpet he could. That is a reason for going to the junkyard.

Odor diffusion relates to a process going from higher concentration to lower concentration of chemicals. That is the significance of finding the point source of the odor. The spare tire cover carpet sample had the highest concentration. He thinks Mike Vincent sent him the MDS on Blue Star and he looked up the MDS on Fabreeze. They must consult an MDS. Neither Blue Star nor Fabreeze contain chloroform.

Meat - fatty acids. The meat would have to be raw, high fat, mammal, big enough to make stain found. It would have to be decomposing in an anerobic environment.

So - a couple pounds of hamburger, wrapped in a bag, sealed, left in a trunk of a car to rot with bacteria normally found in a human body - this MAY cause. Couldn't be caused by someone eating a hamburger and wiping their face. He did not see any traces of hamburger.

Staphalopolis study - a one time examination of 2 bodies, floating the Med. Sea. He knows there was quite a lot of overlap in the compounds they each found.

Regarding the positive control - since they had never studied a human decomposing in the trunk of a car before, they looked for a control. They were able to find another case in Montana where a 3 year old had died and was left in a blanket in the trunk of a car for three months. The point of this control was to confirm that compounds such as we saw in this trunk that were consistent with human decomp could be formed in this type of environment.

This car and the positive control had 4 compounds in common. Chloroform was found in this car and not in the control.

The Montana blanket did not have fluorinated compounds, but ICA car did. Adults produce a number of fluorinated compounds. It is assumed - JB objected - overruled.

It is assumed the fluorinated compounds accumulate in a body over time. Then when you die and decompose, this is converted to fluorinated compounds. If you go to t a country that does not fluorinate their water, you don't see these levels.

In a small child, it is assumed that enough time has not passed for the accumulation of fluorinated compounds for it to show up in decomp process. Same in Montana case.

No further questions by JA.

 

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divining rod are antennas locate ....can use wire coat hangar ...if right material.....hobby of Dr. V....just like stamp collecting.....challenged to crediblity offered a million dollars? object- sustain attempted to put electronic leashes on flies object sustained.....

what you are testifying to today first time database entred into court of law....i don't know if someone has another database...

your findings not accepted in general scientific community object-sustain


Dr. Stephanopolis - looked @ bodies....4 or 5 compound he didn't find chloroform....he is in Greece - in entire world only person who agrees with your findings is this guy in Greece? A gentle man in Greece agrees with you - he used entire bodies others only look @ tissue...he was looking @ a single time point ....we were looking @ 4-5 year study.


JB back @ table....testify smell of human decomp is unique....to Dr. V it is....
Knoxville news on 12/4/08 smells like a potato gone bad....very similar to human decomp...believe he made that statement...actually looked @ potato chemical composition...... JB consults w/DS....

one key markers of human decomp is fluoride....a fluoride compound ...didn't find any in this case.....positive control....object - sustain.....positive control - blanket from body of a child in trunk of car...don't know how collected/stored any controls....

of 30 key markers....twist things around a tad

eliminate gas and floride compounds....only seen late in decomp....leaves 10 compounds leaves 8 of them.....80%....from items Dr. V didn't collect trunk sample, air, blanket, samples @ junkyard....have no idea of their history and makeup - chemical analysis of makeup done....

what was in trunk of pontiac sunfire in 10 yrs in Florida...don't know chemical makeup of was junkyard samples....we tested those....dont know history of car from Montana sample ....child in that case wrapped in blanket ...blanket was stained....not a control....thank goodness don't find a lot of kids in trunk....

very first time conducted sample on carpet sample....wonderful thing about forensic science is every sample is unique.


JB checks w'/DS 0 going over papers....

JB not a member of american academy of sciences
member of american...board

not member of any professional organizations....no and background is so diverse don't know which one to join.....think outside the box.....consider more an explorer in science? object- sustained


JA - which would you say governs career - scientific curiosity or money....scientific curiousity...

inquisition? deposition taken 12/22/10 patent issues and royalty issues....unfortuantely - had to refer to someone else had no understanding of the procedures....never had an interest in it...had to go and ask people for education of that in order to answer question today...control carpet....tried to find most contaminated sample you could...contaminated sample reason to go to junkyard....talked about diffusion....odor diffusion...process where chemical goes from higher concentrations to lower concentrations piece of plastics one with compound X with parts per trillion and one with parts per million - that one could never contaminate the other.....

bluestar & febreze- looked up msds - sent to him - Dr. V loooked up Febreze..before use any chemical in Nat. Lab must look @ msds ...neither bluestar nor febreeze contained chloroform...

volitile fatty acids in paper towels....give scenario

raw meat, uncooked, high fat not butterfat or milk, from mammel, sufficie3nt size to create stain found in trunk of car....object - overrule

probably be anaerobic - with certain type of bacteria found wihtin human body

couple pounds of raw high fat hamburger wrapped in bag, bacteria found ....couldn't be caused by someone eating a hamburger...any evidence of hamburger? No No

DT asked about Dr. Stephanopolis...2 bodies floating in Mediterranian sea....compounds he found ....among the 470 you found...you found additional ones....significant overlap...

positive control - decomp human in trunk of a car...looked around for one....an adult was not a good comparison....found a child wrapped in blanket in trunk of car 3y/o for 3 months. - unfortunate but used this data compounds

5 compounds 4 were formed and other one was chloroform....

floridated compounds - test 3 y/o in Montana - not present - opinion (object- overrule) floridated compounds ...fluorine....assumed that florinated compounds accumulate in human body over process accumulate in body much like lead paint chips eat a lot there will accumulate more.....florinated water compounds....in Brussels you don't see these compounds in the body decomp...small child assumed child maybe drank water but not enough time passed to accumulate enough fluoride to show up.....consistent with other countries that don't fluroidate their water..

 

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Recross of Dr. Vass by JB.

He agreed that the fluoride issue in children has not been studied.

Bio-accumulation is a well known phenom.

Is it an opinion based on something that has not been studied? Yes, but founded in a well known phenom called bio-accumulation.

He was told that the paper towels were found in the trash bags.

Dr. Haskell sent him the paper towels. On them he identified fly pupa - JB withdrew question.

Does the paper towel have anything to do with the stain? He does not have that info.

Something attracted the flies to the paper towels. There was no meat residue on the paper towels. There WERE fatty acids consistent with the break down.

Regarding marijuana - objection by JA - sustained.

Witness may stand down, but JA says there is an issue that needs to be addressed outside of the hearing of the jury.

Sidebar - jury can stand and stretch.

 

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JB your opinion of something never been studied (floride in children remains

paper towel found in trash bag and stain had nothing to do with each other....Dr. Haskell identified JB stopped him

Dr. Haskell sent those paper towels identified fly pupae cases....JB objects outside..

no idea if those paper towels have anything to do with that stain...do not

willing to tell this jury - found in conjuction in trunk of car don't see why not relevant....fatty acids could be found in meat found on that paper towels.....somthing attracted the flies to thepaper towls....

don't know if clean up meat after cooking....no meat found on paper towels....fat in breakdown in adipocere ....now marijuana (object-sustained X2 and 3rd time)

Dr may stand down....

Jury to stretch break = Sidebar for scheduling

 

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HHBP - the next witness will be lengthy that will take more than 25 minutes. Rather than start and stop, they are going to break for the day and start afresh in the morning.

JB, CM and JA at sidebar regarding scheduling issue.

Jury excused.


Jury excused until 9:00 a.m

 

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Jury out of the courtroom.

JA stating Dr. Vass served with subpoena for database. JA states that is in violation of FS and asks the subpoena to be quashed.

HHBP reading in a book.

JB voluntarily withdrawing the subpoena.

JB wants to recall Dr. Vass in their case in chief.

Witness may go home and come back later.

Court in recess to 9:00 a.m.

 

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CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DR. ARPAD VASS BY JS

JS wants to correct a mistake from yesterday. He was shown Exhibit I.R. and asked if he recognized it as the can he was sent, as opposed to the one he was shown yesterday which was I.O. He recognized his initials on I.R. This was the can he tested.

JB objection - overruled.

JS - Can (I.R.) was entered into evidence.

No further questions by J.S.

CROSS BY JB

Yesterday you testified about a piece of evidence that you did not examine?

I looked at a can.

Objection by SA.

SIDEBAR #2

 

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CONTINUED recross of Dr. Vass by JB regarding the can incorrectly placed into evidence yesterday by the State.

You mistakenly admitted the wrong piece of evidence yesterday? Apparently.

And this was after you had read the label? Yes.

You are a Research lab

Objection by SA - sustained

Not accustomed to handling evidence?

Objection by SA - overruled

We are not a forensic lab.

Objection by SA to scope - sustained

Witness excused.

State asks for a few minutes to pull evidence for next witness.

Recess until 10:20.