FL FL - David Hamilton or Armantrout - Lee Co - 1963

[summergirl1]

It is possible he got a fake/new name and Social Security number. He may not have wanted to be findable by his family given that there were issues in the family. I doubt it, but you never know.

 

[AlexFromnic]

It was in this house in Miami Florida 1644 NW 19th Terrace in Febuary of 1942 as WW2 was being fought in Europe that a young David Alfred Armantrout was brought home from the hospital to. Where he started to experience the world.

At one point his parents clearly were proud of him. They entered him into the Miami Better Baby Contest in the beauty division. He was a semi-finalist. Clearly young David's parents at one time in that very home stared deep into their perfect babies eyes and wondered -- What would become of their handsome son?

The answer? Homeless. Lost. And forgotten. Well almost.

 

[Valiant]

Questions for websleuths that relate to this case:

#1 How were john does handled by law enforcement in the 60s? Was there a difference between small towns and the cities?

#2 Are there any reasons why someone may not continue using their social security number that don't relate directly with death? Is there any reasonable situation in which his last contact with law enforcement be vagrancy in 1963?

More will be added if I can think of any +++

#2
It used to be much easier to fake a new identity, which could be desired for many reasons including running away from the law or personal issues.. If I recall the general idea of how it worked back then, you find a young child's grave roughly the same age and get the birth date from the grave. Then find where they were born and get a copy of the birth certificate. The use that info to get a new ID and SSN. Back then young children didn't have SSNs.

 

[AlexFromnic]

David Hamilton may have run from home in Tennessee but he was last seen in Lee County. About 2 hours from where is mother eventually died and about as far as Miami where he was born all in Florida. Florida where his stepfather is from and where he married the boys mother. A lot of Florida keeps coming up here. His mother ends up passing away there. He was born there. I wonder if there was something David was coming back to in Florida that goes beyond good weather? My spidey senses tell me David or his remains are still in Florida.

 

[AlexFromnic]

I am in the process of figuring out what highschool the boys went to. It seems it was:

E.W. Grove Henry County High School​

Yahoo.com Although I see no mention of them in the year book. The specific senior years I need are of course the only ones missing.

 

[AlexFromnic]

#2
It used to be much easier to fake a new identity, which could be desired for many reasons including running away from the law or personal issues.. If I recall the general idea of how it worked back then, you find a young child's grave roughly the same age and get the birth date from the grave. Then find where they were born and get a copy of the birth certificate. The use that info to get a new ID and SSN. Back then young children didn't have SSNs.

My understanding is the surviving brother found out his last name was not Hamilton when he went to join the military. At this moment he found out he was Armantrout. So none of the boys had proper information. I wonder if David was going by Hamilton or Armantrout when he was arrested? I assume Armantrout

 

[AlexFromnic]

Is there a way to find out where these boys went to highschool?

 

[AlexFromnic]

More questions for sleuths pertaining to this. Case:
#1 He was arrested for vagrency in 1963. Does that mean there is a likely booking photo out there somewhere? Can I obtain it somehow?

#2 Is there a way to find where someone went to highschool?

Also, I'm adding possible namus matches here:
Florida: #1 The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
#2 The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

 

[summergirl1]

My understanding is the surviving brother found out his last name was not Hamilton when he went to join the military. At this moment he found out he was Armantrout. So none of the boys had proper information. I wonder if David was going by Hamilton or Armantrout when he was arrested? I assume Armantrout

That would be useful information to have.

 

[AlexFromnic]

Three rarely viewed videos all from the Bibb County Voice (press) youtube channel. Specifically:
#1 Zoom meeting with Coleen Fitzpatrick dealing specifically with how Daniel Armantrout the younger brother of the man we are looking for who was a John Doe was identified -

(only 996 views)

#2 Video of Daniel Armantrout memorial plaque being installed. His brother Donald is there.

(225 views)

#3 The most rich in info video and interesting. An interview with the brother of Daniel Armantrout (Bibb county john doe) and David Armantrout (Our missing person. The oldest brother) Donald Armantrout! Donald is the middle child between David and Daniel. He was able to join the military to escape the situation the boys grew up in. David was denied due to bad eye sight and Daniel had polio as a child and was disabled. (Only 122 views!!)

These videos particularly the 3rd is filled with important information. Maybe someone else can notice something I missed? I'm rewatching all the videos looking for clues. I am convinced David is a John Doe. If he's not I'd love to solve this if at all possible and if a reunion of brothers is possible I'd love to help make it happen.

 

[Ciriii57]

@AlexFromnic hi! Did you ever manage to confirm the schools he attended? This would be a good starting point I think. I've still not seen a photo or even a description of him?

 

[AlexFromnic]

@AlexFromnic hi! Did you ever manage to confirm the schools he attended? This would be a good starting point I think. I've still not seen a photo or even a description of him?

So incredibly and very frustratingly the one year of the yearbook I needed was missing which would be David's senior year and would of at least given us a face go look at. There's 3 years of year books in both directions but not that one. So frustrating. I went through every page to see if there was a mention of him. I'll try again today.

I'm back on this.

In the end I just can't understand how the last time he would use his SS number would be when he was arrested for vagrants. Clearly he was identified and booked then so he must of had a name and SS number. If it hasn't been used since then how can that mean anything except he would be a doe somewhere?

I'm not great at this I'm sure there are many better here on the site. I just feel like unless he promptly died in the 60s or early 70s he would have a paper trail. Or maybe it exists but we aren't privy to that info. Why don't we have anyone on this website who knows someone in either law enforcement or who has access to this kind of info through the government? You'd think we would have someone here who could run an SS number.

 

[summergirl1]

I'm not sure if his SS number is known? If there's an article stating that it hasn't been used, then I would assume they have run it already.

 

[AlexFromnic]

I'm not sure if his SS number is known? If there's an article stating that it hasn't been used, then I would assume they have run it already.

I believe when they ran his name it came out for being arrested in Lee County Florida for vagrant. Which means he was homeless there. So I'm not sure what they were looking at during this time perhaps this was criminal records only in which case maybe he has been law abiding the rest of his life?

So just so you guys know I think I posted the video of this earlier in this thread. I was watching a video about the more famous brother Bibb county doe Danny Armantrout/Hamilton and they were live and attempting to find the other missing brother David and they got excited for a moment but them noticed the only returning record search was to a 1967 vagrancy arrest. But based on the reaction of the panel it seemed very likely based on I assume the lack of paper trail they found the he likely is one of the other does out there.

So I'm thinking be very well likely could be a Doe and may even be on NAMUS.

 

[summergirl1]

As for his yearbook, even if it was available, he may not have been in it or been in it barely. There may not have been a photo of him.

 

[DD Byrd]

Keep in mind that "vagrancy" didn't necessarily mean homelessness. Especially in the 60s, arrests for it took myriad reasons from drunkenness (the pre-cursor to more encompassing yet less flashy "public intoxication," to loitering to just being a pain in the ass with the wrong officer. Coupled with the fact you can be arrested w/o a SSN, I wouldn't assume he was dead shortly after 1963.

I agree you'd think there would be a paper trail, but he ran away. To me that implies not wanting to be found, at least initially. It stands to reason he would go by another name, 'legally' or not. Maybe he was savvy and created an official identity and a back story, or perhaps (and to me, more likely) he just worked odd jobs for cash and lived simply. In FL weather, for all we know he lived in someone's barn or shed in return for horse grooming or property chores. It's entirely possible he was off the grid enough he didn't believe anyone was looking for him. And it sounds like he didn't write or tell his brother he was taking off, so maybe he didn't care if they were. Or he did but mentally told himself he was beyond the point of return.

All that being said, he still could have died after 1963. But that doesn't mean he's a Doe. He could've been buried by people who knew him but not his true identity, he might have wandered off on drugs or from Alzheimer's and died in the woods, he might have committed suicide in a cave and hasn't been located, or accidently fallen off a ship he stowed away on, or murdered and put down an abandoned well. It seems like the best bet is genealogy and the ever-increasing usage of DNA testing.

 

[AlexFromnic]

Keep in mind that "vagrancy" didn't necessarily mean homelessness. Especially in the 60s, arrests for it took myriad reasons from drunkenness (the pre-cursor to more encompassing yet less flashy "public intoxication," to loitering to just being a pain in the *advertiser censored* with the wrong officer. Coupled with the fact you can be arrested w/o a SSN, I wouldn't assume he was dead shortly after 1963.

I agree you'd think there would be a paper trail, but he ran away. To me that implies not wanting to be found, at least initially. It stands to reason he would go by another name, 'legally' or not. Maybe he was savvy and created an official identity and a back story, or perhaps (and to me, more likely) he just worked odd jobs for cash and lived simply. In FL weather, for all we know he lived in someone's barn or shed in return for horse grooming or property chores. It's entirely possible he was off the grid enough he didn't believe anyone was looking for him. And it sounds like he didn't write or tell his brother he was taking off, so maybe he didn't care if they were. Or he did but mentally told himself he was beyond the point of return.

All that being said, he still could have died after 1963. But that doesn't mean he's a Doe. He could've been buried by people who knew him but not his true identity, he might have wandered off on drugs or from Alzheimer's and died in the woods, he might have committed suicide in a cave and hasn't been located, or accidently fallen off a ship he stowed away on, or murdered and put down an abandoned well. It seems like the best bet is genealogy and the ever-increasing usage of DNA testing.

Some good points here. One thing I do find indicative that an SS number or something specifically identifying (likely an SS) was involved was because the find of vagrancy was found during a live session and being his name is so common "David Hamilton" id imagine an SS number would be needed to be looked up or else there would be a million Hamiltons and no way to know for sure it was him. So I can't think of anything else they could of used other than an SS number to differentiate him I was assuming it was that.

 

[AlexFromnic]

Not sure why this didn't come up in an earlier post but there is a wealth of information in this interview with Donald Armantrout.

Only 138 views at this point.

 

[DD Byrd]

I can't open the earlier videos, just the last one with Misty the genealogist. My takeaway is David disappeared while in TN. So before we get to FL, how do we know David left home or even the state of TN? Unless I missed it, I don't see Donald mentioning David, yet he 'ran away' after Daniel and was actually older than them both. Perhaps David was considered an adult, on his own, or a lost cause and the focus was on Danny.

I agree someone was arrested with ID naming him as David Hamilton. Was it David or was it another vagrant with David's ID? If it was David, then barring other evidence he may have died in FL transient or went off the grid. This arrest wasn't long after he was last noted in TN, perhaps this vagrant was arrested with an already deceased person's ID. Curious though, if it was David Hamilton it makes sense that unless he was on the lam he'd likely go by David."

As for David Naval, that sounds like an Hispanic name, Na-VAL with "val" rhyming with "wall." Him having SS paperwork is vague, was it stuffed in a drawer with personal belongings or fresh and laying about? Outside of "David" and age range, I don't see a connection. A huge leap would be David changing his name to something remotely phonetically similar so he'd respond to it. that's a little cloak and dagger though.

This could come down to DNA if David was a Doe with a sample, from with the rest of the Armantrout or Berner lines.

 

[summergirl1]

The surviving brother is up in years, and David, too, would be quite old today. Maybe that's why this does not appear to be currently being looked into more.. But, Clara Frost/Koprowski's disappearence is..hmm..