Gilgo Beach LISK Serial Killer, Rex Heuermann, charged with 3 murders, July 2023

[Ruminations]

I previously posted links to the NY court rules noted that it could be complicated and complicated further by a pending divorce.
The only thing of importance is, RH can challenge and request that his spouse not testify, as I have said several times, it will all come down to court rulings on his challenge and what the specific testimony is, that is being proposed.
I realize that not everyone wants to read the previous posts.
Edit to add, This is not an argument over what the wife should or should not do, or her rights, or RH's rights. It's simply looking at NY court rules and the practical application, which is only relevant to this case if RH raises an objection IF the spouse elects to testify against him.

Asa is a witness who can testify in Rex's defense or against him as she pleases.
In NYS there are very narrow things that Rex can have supressed at trial, such as confidential conversation. And there are exceptions to that.

In NY what he could have suppressed is so narrow it is irrelevant.

In practicality, a hostile witness is a tricky tool for a prosecutor. I can agree to that. So if she does not cooperate, that could be an obstacle.

But you are making it seem like because of spousal privilege, AE can't possibly be a witness against Rex, and that is simply not true. Spousal privilege is not going to prevent her from testifying about Rex if she so chooses. (I still hold that she may not know what of what she has witnessed is truely "against" Rex. Thus I said "about.") Only AE can decide how much of what she has witnessed she is willing to share. Only she can be the obstacle if she wishes to be. No law or statute is forcing her to speak or not speak.

Spousal privilege is a red herring. It is a way of claiming that AE is not a witness. And that is impossible to believe, IMO.

MOO

IANAL, but I have read the statutes with excellent lay comprehensio, thank you very much.

Edited to add: I suppose AE could be compelled to testify about things that do not incriminate her, so that statement was not accurate. But it would still be very tricky to get her to testify against Rex if she did not want to. It would be hard to prove she was failing to give information. MOO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Why Macedonio insists Asa wants to see/hear the evidence presented in court because all she has is what the media is reporting is ridiculous.
NY State's indictment/bail document is online and explains what/why he's been charged with by a Grand Jury.
The media has reported from that document and as far as what the media reports from the Ray/Harrison presser those 2 signed affidavits are also available online,
She can read them herself or have her lawyer go over them with her.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/lti-bail-application-form-2023-7-14-23-final-1-redacted-1/6ffd72d59b87aa51/full.pdf

redacted_affidavit_2.pdf
redacted_affidavit_1.pdf

 

[10ofRods]

Exactly. And for my example, "I'm going to murder her, you stay upstairs." (And in this example, don't tell anyone was implied) the confidentiality exception could be nullified if AE was afraid of him because it was a DV situation.

There is nothing to stop AE from testifying for or against Rex. It is up to her. She's her own person.

MOO

Excellent and specific example. I think that if she heard him speak words - to her directly and in their home - in NY a Judge MIGHT exclude that testimony. It's far too complex (given that in one case, a spouse was allowed to say some things - but not others) for me to anticipate what Judge would say.

The DV exception gives the spouse a lot of leeway, frankly. I wonder what the laws are in Indiana (Delphi case).

I do think that a Judge could prevent AE from being asked certain questions - but I can't even hazard a guess that that decision might look like.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

But you are making it seem like because of spousal privilege, AE can't possibly be a witness against Rex, and that is simply not true. Spousal privilege is not going to prevent her from testifying about Rex if she so chooses. (I still hold that she may not know what of what she has witnessed is truely "against" Rex. Thus I said "about.") Only AE can decide how much of what she has witnessed she is willing to share. Only she can be the obstacle if she wishes to be. No law or statute is forcing her to speak or not speak.

Spousal privilege is a red herring. It is a way of claiming that AE is not a witness.

In no way was it used as "a way of claiming AE is not a witness". It has nothing to do with anything I, or anyone else, thinks AE knows or doesn't know. Personal feelings about this case aren't relevant to what I discussed.
I also said from the first conversation on this thread, that it was complicated when it could happen, and I never made it sound like one spouse could NEVER testify against another.
My comments have nothing to do with the specifics of this case, except that they are in the middle of a divorce.
I disagree with your opinion that the laws of privilege are not used in New York courts and could not be applied in this case. I see several precedence cases online. No one can state with certainty what would happen, it is not applied until there is a challenge.

 

[Ruminations]

As with anyone testifying, anything AE would have to offer on the witness stand is subject to court rules. A challenge from RH could potentially prevent some or all of the testimony due to state law.
No need to explore the endless variations and possibilities, the state law exists and the court will decide on its application, case by case.


Quote not working, Re your other post:

I don't think we know what Harrison has vetted, and we don't know if anyone has verified anything Ray has reported that someone told him, hearsay.
When it is said "We have witnesses", it sounds like it is being accepted as a fact. I didn't think even Ray was claiming it was a fact, he asked that it be investigated.
I'm not dismissing the statement, I haven't even seen it.

We do have witnesses. It is not hearsay. It is information available in main stream media, and in the cases of the sworn witnesses, we directly have access to that, not through John Ray or Rodney Harrison. We have no reason, based on any previous behavior by Ray or Harrison to suspect that they would make this information public if it were not trustworthy. Why would either of them present it publicly without vetting? Just because more investigation is needed does not mean we reject this information.

<modsnip: personalizing/directing members to Google rather than providing a link>

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

Excellent and specific example. I think that if she heard him speak words - to her directly and in their home - in NY a Judge MIGHT exclude that testimony. It's far too complex (given that in one case, a spouse was allowed to say some things - but not others) for me to anticipate what Judge would say.

The DV exception gives the spouse a lot of leeway, frankly. I wonder what the laws are in Indiana (Delphi case).

I do think that a Judge could prevent AE from being asked certain questions - but I can't even hazard a guess that that decision might look like.

Im not at all saying that murder was committed on Karen the night the swinging witness likely saw her there. But hypothetically, let's say she was murdered that night.

Everything the witness testified to that AE had direct knowledge of could be asked of Asa. She could be asked the wherabouts in the house of each person. She could be testify to any screams. If Rex were heard saying something to Karen, she could testify to that. She could testify to every wordsaid with the possible exception of words spoken to her by Rex when nobody else could hear. If he murdered Karen that night or was an accomplice, and he told her so directly in confidence, only that MIGHT be suppressed. but even that depends. If he privately told her he murdered Karen and will murder her, too, if she tells, the DV exceptions could enter. (Or maybe a judge would only let it in for a case where AE was the victim.) But even if that statement is not allowed, all the other stuff would certainly help convict Rex.

Once again, we are not yet 100% that the witness saw Karen, although it seems likely. And while the witness discribed crimes IMO, she did not witness murder. This is a hypothetical to discuss how irrelevant spousal privilege is.

MOO

 

[Forest_Wood]

Why Macedonio insists Asa wants to see/hear the evidence presented in court because all she has is what the media is reporting is ridiculous.
NY State's indictment/bail document is online and explains what/why he's been charged with by a Grand Jury.
The media has reported from that document and as far as what the media reports from the Ray/Harrison presser those 2 signed affidavits are also available online,
She can read them herself or have her lawyer go over them with her.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/lti-bail-application-form-2023-7-14-23-final-1-redacted-1/6ffd72d59b87aa51/full.pdf

redacted_affidavit_2.pdf
redacted_affidavit_1.pdf

There's a lot that's redacted in this document.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

We do have witnesses. It is not hearsay. It is information available in main stream media, and in the cases of the sworn witnesses, we directly have access to that,

That information being available on MSM, or written in a signed statement, does not make the contents factual.

If you want to accept it and state "we have witnesses" that show the wife knew about RH, SW's in her home, I will just say I don't accept that as a fact and disagree.

I don't know that the witness is correct in her recollections or statement, or that LE has given the impression that anything in the statement has been verified or fact-checked.

My comments are directly solely at the claim that it is shown that AE knew about that SW on the date in question.
I am not defending anyone, and I'm not criticizing anyone.
Edit to add, I specifically said I did not dismiss the person's statement.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Why Macedonio insists Asa wants to see/hear the evidence presented in court because all she has is what the media is reporting is ridiculous.
NY State's indictment/bail document is online and explains what/why he's been charged with by a Grand Jury.
The media has reported from that document and as far as what the media reports from the Ray/Harrison presser those 2 signed affidavits are also available online,
She can read them herself or have her lawyer go over them with her.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/lti-bail-application-form-2023-7-14-23-final-1-redacted-1/6ffd72d59b87aa51/full.pdf

redacted_affidavit_2.pdf
redacted_affidavit_1.pdf

Reposting to include edit:

There's a lot that's redacted in the bail application document.
The affidavits are very detailed by those two witnesses.
The fact that they recognized RH from seeing him on TV after his arrest, and recognized two of the young women that ended up dead, and that they both felt the need to report this years later is very believable imo. MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

Im not at all saying that murder was committed on Karen the night the swinging witness likely saw her there. But hypothetically, let's say she was murdered that night.

Everything the witness testified to that AE had direct knowledge of could be asked of Asa. She could be asked the wherabouts in the house of each person. She could be testify to any screams. If Rex were heard saying something to Karen, she could testify to that. She could testify to every wordsaid with the possible exception of words spoken to her by Rex when nobody else could hear. If he murdered Karen that night or was an accomplice, and he told her so directly in confidence, only that MIGHT be suppressed. but even that depends. If he privately told her he murdered Karen and will murder her, too, if she tells, the DV exceptions could enter. (Or maybe a judge would only let it in for a case where AE was the victim.) But even if that statement is not allowed, all the other stuff would certainly help convict Rex.

Once again, we are not yet 100% that the witness saw Karen, although it seems likely. And while the witness discribed crimes IMO, she did not witness murder. This is a hypothetical to discuss how irrelevant spousal privilege is.

MOO

I agree with everything you typed. I think you characterized how NY draws the line very well. It is a hypothetical that lends real understanding to this case.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Very weird or very telling?
I obviously don't know what/how a serial killer may react to or do to acknowledge an anniversary of a life they had taken but on page 32 they have evidence of Heuermann registering an account on a burner phone and making contact with a sex worker on Feb.14,2021.
Feb 14, 1996 was the last contact anyone had with Karen Vergata.
Damn..still want to know if Vergata was just let out of jail before swinger and her boyfriend picked her up.
If she was it would give credence to swingers claims.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documentto...-final-1-redacted-1/6ffd72d59b87aa51/full.pdf

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I obviously don't know what/how a serial killer may react to or do to acknowledge an anniversary of a life they had taken but on page 32 they have evidence of Heuermann registering an account on a burner phone and making contact with a sex worker on Feb.14,2021.

I do see on page 24 that RH sent an "image" of a NY SW to himself, from one of his email addresses to another one of his email addresses, on Feb 14, 2021, maybe the new account was opened for that purpose. It would be nice to know if they contacted the person in the image, if they ever knew who it was.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Very weird or very telling?
I obviously don't know what/how a serial killer may react to or do to acknowledge an anniversary of a life they had taken but on page 32 they have evidence of Heuermann registering an account on a burner phone and making contact with a sex worker on Feb.14,2021.
Feb 14, 1996 was the last contact anyone had with Karen Vergata.
Damn..still want to know if Vergata was just let out of jail before swinger and her boyfriend picked her up.
If she was it would give credence to swingers claims.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documentto...-final-1-redacted-1/6ffd72d59b87aa51/full.pdf

Huh?
Aug.4,2023

I found an Aug 4, 2023 article where Tierney identified Jane Doe # 7 as Karen Vergata.

The swinger signed her affidavit Aug.4,2023 claiming it was Karen Vergata and I don't know what was published about the missing Karen throughout the years that the swinger could have known?

Was she released from jail on Feb 14 1996?

The article doesn't say anymore so that is now the question.

"Karen Vergata had been arrested numerous times, according to documents in the court papers, which don’t specify the charges or outcomes. Tierney said investigators believe she was working as an escort. Most of the other victims in the Gilgo Beach killings also were sex workers.

"Vergata was behind bars again when she called her father for what would be the last time on Feb. 14, 1996, seeming “very troubled,” he said."

After 27 years, authorities identify woman whose remains were found along Gilgo Beach parkway

Authorities say a woman whose remains were among discoveries that became known as the Gilgo Beach killings has been identified after 27 years.

apnews.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

I do see on page 24 that RH sent an "image" of a NY SW to himself, from one of his email addresses to another one of his email addresses, on Feb 14, 2021, maybe the new account was opened for that purpose. It would be nice to know if they contacted the person in the image, if they ever knew who it was.

Thanks for the page correction, it is page 24 not 32.
One can only hope that all this kind of info. was/are being investigated.
We do know that a lot of the info that prosecutors have are not put in these documents and only later are reveled.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Thanks for the page correction, it is page 24 not 32.
One can only hope that all this kind of info. was/are being investigated.
We do know that a lot of the info that prosecutors have are not put in these documents and only later are reveled.

So on Feb 14, 2021, he sent an image of a SW from one of his emails to another. I wonder why he was transferring pics of SWs from one email to another. To pretend he was a different customer after already communicating with her using another name? Is this one of the behaviours he did when he was preparing to strike again. LE has stated that they suspected he was preparing to strike again when they arrested him in 2023. And is there something about Valentines Day that triggers him to want to kill. Did other women go missing on Valentines Day besides Karen. MOO.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Huh?
Aug.4,2023

I found an Aug 4, 2023 article where Tierney identified Jane Doe # 7 as Karen Vergata.

The swinger signed her affidavit Aug.4,2023 claiming it was Karen Vergata and I don't know what was published about the missing Karen throughout the years that the swinger could have known?

Was she released from jail on Feb 14 1996?

The article doesn't say anymore so that is now the question.

"Karen Vergata had been arrested numerous times, according to documents in the court papers, which don’t specify the charges or outcomes. Tierney said investigators believe she was working as an escort. Most of the other victims in the Gilgo Beach killings also were sex workers.

"Vergata was behind bars again when she called her father for what would be the last time on Feb. 14, 1996, seeming “very troubled,” he said."

After 27 years, authorities identify woman whose remains were found along Gilgo Beach parkway

Authorities say a woman whose remains were among discoveries that became known as the Gilgo Beach killings has been identified after 27 years.

apnews.com

She called her dad “FROM” jail on 14 Feb (we don’t know if jail records confirm that she was calling from jail, or is she telling her dad she was calling from jail. People do make excuses …)
That’s the last known contact with a confirmed date that is verifiable - it doesn’t mean that she died on 14th, or next few days. It’s possible, but it’s not confirmation that 14 Feb is her date of death an “anniversary”. NY Police, at the time, don’t know if it’s still policy, would not issue a “missing person” for someone who has warrant or due to appear in court. They didn’t consider those people missing, rather evading LE and courts.
It would be interesting to know who posted bail for her (if there was bail), what day/time she was released. That should be documented and there is no indication as to why police haven’t confirmed it. Maybe no one has asked police, or she wasn’t in jail on 14 Feb)
Feb 14 is her last verifiable contact with her family. That’s what it is according to the APNews.

 

[Ruminations]

So on Feb 14, 2021, he sent an image of a SW from one of his emails to another. I wonder why he was transferring pics of SWs from one email to another. To pretend he was a different customer after already communicating with her using another name? Is this one of the behaviours he did when he was preparing to strike again. LE has stated that they suspected he was preparing to strike again when they arrested him in 2023. And is there something about Valentines Day that triggers him to want to kill. Did other women go missing on Valentines Day besides Karen. MOO.

Plausible, especially if the image had contact info.

creep her out under one name, then call her up and bring her an envelope of cut paper "no matter what happens," the next.

It is emerging that Rex follows up when he feels someone has done him wrong. I could see him getting angry that a SW wouldn't put up with his being an A-hole, and then recontacting pretending to be nice as a new person to get back at her.

However, it also emerged that he had a fairly long term sex buyer-SW relationship where he was friendly and apparently not abusive over a period of time. And, while his employee whom he stalked on vacay was retrospectively creeped out, it sounds like she had a good enough employee-boss relationship with him that lasted.

Still, overall, Rex does not seem to be a consistent "nice guy" persona when not killing. He seems pretty out as an entitled, vengeful and vile man when not murdering. Just like his brother, who AFAIK has "only" killed recklessly.

MOO

 

[Izzylizzy]

She called her dad “FROM” jail on 14 Feb (we don’t know if jail records confirm that she was calling from jail, or is she telling her dad she was calling from jail. People do make excuses …)
That’s the last known contact with a confirmed date that is verifiable - it doesn’t mean that she died on 14th, or next few days. It’s possible, but it’s not confirmation that 14 Feb is her date of death an “anniversary”. NY Police, at the time, don’t know if it’s still policy, would not issue a “missing person” for someone who has warrant or due to appear in court. They didn’t consider those people missing, rather evading LE and courts.
It would be interesting to know who posted bail for her (if there was bail), what day/time she was released. That should be documented and there is no indication as to why police haven’t confirmed it. Maybe no one has asked police, or she wasn’t in jail on 14 Feb)
Feb 14 is her last verifiable contact with her family. That’s what it is according to the APNews.

It's so frustrating seeing that there's no follow-up info. that's been released.
The swinger's "at or around Feb.14 "claims could easily be put to rest or get legs.

For the first time I scanned page 18-19 in the bail document leaving me with no words to describe the magnitude of evil except that Rex is evil personified.
Besides Rex's defense trying to get this forensic evidence thrown out good luck with a jury hearing/seeing his interests.

John Ray is holding a presser on Dec.8 so maybe more info about the swinger's claims will be forthcoming?

 

[Ruminations]

In no way was it used as "a way of claiming AE is not a witness". It has nothing to do with anything I, or anyone else, thinks AE knows or doesn't know. Personal feelings about this case aren't relevant to what I discussed.
I also said from the first conversation on this thread, that it was complicated when it could happen, and I never made it sound like one spouse could NEVER testify against another.
My comments have nothing to do with the specifics of this case, except that they are in the middle of a divorce.
I disagree with your opinion that the laws of privilege are not used in New York courts and could not be applied in this case. I see several precedence cases online. No one can state with certainty what would happen, it is not applied until there is a challenge.

It is not complicated.

The bottom line is spousal privilege has no importance whatsoever.

Rex's defense team may be able to have a tiny part of what she might have to report kept from a jury. Specifically, he might be able to have something said directly to her in when no one else witnessed it in a private space kept from a jury. Yet a judge may allow some private conversation be reported to the jury in some cases, so claiming the privilege isn't even a sure bet in those few instances.

Everthing that AE saw, heard, smelled, or otherwise observed is admissible before a jury, except direct and confidential communication from Rex to Asa. All those things, besides Rex's communication, are going to be far more damning than his communication, anyway. People say, "I'm gonna kill them," type things often without meaning it, so if Rex committed murder around her, and said that to her in confidence, MAYBE that statement would be kept from the jury. And that statement wouldn't mean much without other observations.

But if Asa heard a struggle, a scream, Rex saying incriminating things to the victim, saw someone run away naked, saw clothes being burned, etc., all just hypotheticals, all of that would be fully admissible.

(FWIW, Asa wasn't married to Rex the night that the swinger was there, so there is no spousal privilege about that night , anyway. But I assume scenes like the one the swinger described, if true, which seems likely, continued into the legal marriage. So other nights when they were legally married, the only thing that MIGHT be kept from the jury is communications directly from Rex to Asa in confidence.)

Divorce does not complicate anything because spousal privilege does not get erased retroactively. But in NY almost nothing is going to be privileged.

Spousal privilege is not an obstacle to Asa being a witness. The only obstacle realistically speaking is Asa's potential refusal to cooperate. Macedonio seems to be hostile to cooperation, but he is not an honest actor. And Asa could be more cooperative than we think, being that she gave the DNA sample quietly.

Spousal privilege is simply irrelevant in this case. There is no point in mentioning it except to discourage people from turning to Asa as a witness.

MOO

 

[Izzylizzy]

So on Feb 14, 2021, he sent an image of a SW from one of his emails to another. I wonder why he was transferring pics of SWs from one email to another. To pretend he was a different customer after already communicating with her using another name? Is this one of the behaviours he did when he was preparing to strike again. LE has stated that they suspected he was preparing to strike again when they arrested him in 2023. And is there something about Valentines Day that triggers him to want to kill. Did other women go missing on Valentines Day besides Karen. MOO.

I have no idea.
The swinger's date is "on or around Feb 14, 1996.
<modsnip: not victim friendly>