Innocent vs. Guilty

[Hopeful One]

What are the main things that make you think Darlie is innocent or guilty? I'll post mine (innocent) later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time. Can't wait to read everyone's opinions!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I'll need to add to this, but briefly:


My No. 1 reason is that I know the prosecutor - Toby Shook.

The others are in no particular order of importance:
No evidence of a break in;
No scent of anyone leaving the house;
Darlie's 16 different versions of what happened;
Darlie's lies on the witness stand;
Darin's lies on the witness stand;
Darlie's family keeping those lies going until recently;
No evidence of any intruder(s);
The knife in the butcher block;
The blood cleaned off the couch;
The blood/absence of blood in the kitchen sink area;
The baby bottle returned to an upright position in the sink;
The broken wine glass - no blood;
Two attacks on Devon;
The sock with Darlie's DNA and the boys' blood;
No motive for an intruder to target the boys first;
The difference in wounds of Darlie versus the boys;

I've got to think for a minute, but this gives you someplace to start.

Now you - why is she innocent?

 

[peggy]

What are the main things that make you think Darlie is innocent or guilty? I'll post mine (innocent) later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time. Can't wait to read everyone's opinions!

Here is a simple reply - she was convicted so by definition she is guilty. I lost interest in the case at that point, but before she was convicted, no doubt in my mind she was guilty.
Or maybe you are saying she was wrongly convicted?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Peggy, I think that's exactly what Shamrock is getting at. We'd love for you to stick around and post with us if your interest should return!!!

 

[CW]

Hi everyone shamrock please stick around and joy us I believe that Darlie is guilty, but I also believe the Darin was involved in some way. They tryed to make a big deal out of the black car well the police started that black car and had everyone out of the car and if they would of been the one's who killed the boys and tryed to "kille Darlie" with the amount of blood in that house they would of had blood on them the police sent them on their way. Why is it with Darlie's last applea she want's the blood tested on Darins jeans it's like she is ever so slowly letting us know that Darin was involved. No one had a reason to come into that home and kill those 2 precious boys yet they didn't kill the main witnesses who would of been testifying against them. I do not believe they were murdered as a money motive I believe Darlie and Darin got into a fight and with her being on diet pills I do know they can change your mood in a heart beat and she went in a rage Darin had upset her or hurt her and she snapped and took it out on the ones Darin loved most his son's and then I believe he started covering for her because he worshiped the ground she walked on. JMHO

 

[smellsarat]

Hey Guys and Hi Jeana!!! I have read a couple of books on Darlies' case....and am just now watching AGAIN the ctv special on the case.....which brings me here...Often wondered if she did it due to postpatrum from the birth of Drake..seems to be a growing problem...and having suffered postpartum myself I know that it can with lack of sleep make you feel very starnge and unlike yourself!!!! Have you given any thought to that theory??? And what about the sock down the alley??? Anything new on that??

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm sure that Darlie was suffering from some sort of hormonal changes post baby delivery. I don't know if it rose to the level of actual depression. Considering all of the other factors in her life at the time, she was under a tremendous amount of stress. I'm sure that insomnia because of the diet pills, waking during the night to take care of Drake and the emotional stress of being in financial trouble, having marital problems and being stranded at home every day because she had no vehicle all contributed to her feelings of hopelessness that caused her to consider suicide shortly before the murders. (wow, how's that for a run-on sentence). :angel:

 

[smellsarat]

I'm sure that Darlie was suffering from some sort of hormonal changes post baby delivery. I don't know if it rose to the level of actual depression. Considering all of the other factors in her life at the time, she was under a tremendous amount of stress. I'm sure that insomnia because of the diet pills, waking during the night to take care of Drake and the emotional stress of being in financial trouble, having marital problems and being stranded at home every day because she had no vehicle all contributed to her feelings of hopelessness that caused her to consider suicide shortly before the murders. (wow, how's that for a run-on sentence). :angel:

Hey Jeana sweetie..Happy Turkey Day by the way!!!
What up with Texas anyway??? Seems to be an overabundance of women going off the deep end in your neck of the woods...( Andrea Yates)...., the latest the woman who cut off her babys' arms???? Any thoughts on why ?? Sumthin' in the water...maybe a little oil mixed in...????

 

[dasgal]

Hi Shamrock,

Wow, we are going to have to make a lot of room for all the reasons I think she is guilty.
Hmm. Where to begin. Let's start at the beginning.

1.Darlie was suffering from post partum depression and was also taking fenphen for weight loss and paxel for depression. Combine this with verbal abuse from Darin, no money, late bills, lots of stress, no car, and kids that were driving her nuts.

2. Darlie asked Darin for a separation the night of the murders. They argued. This is documented and agreed on by both parties.

3. The items that Darlie had out while going through a memory lane of sorts: Wedding Dress, legal items, photo album. On it's own, not very damning. In context, very much so.

4.The blood evidence.

5. Her 911 call insisting she had accidentally erased the "intruders" fingerprints by picking up the knife.

6. Her wounds in comparasion with those of the boys.

7. The unyeilding blood evidence supporting her as the only killer.

8. Changing her story (before her conviction) 16 times. To date, she has changed it many other times. (If I ever get a chance to do a compelation of that as well, I will)

9. Evidence at the scene is contrast with her story(s). Much of the evidence is very damning ie: wine glass w/her blood underneath, blood trails,
her blood where it shouldn't be, her DNA found inside a sock, her boys blood outside.

10. Her lack of concern when seeing Damon dead.

11. Her bizzare dispostion regarding the deaths of both children.

12. The answering machine message that said, "Don't believe what the media says" before the media was saying anything.

13. Changing from "fighting" to "frightening" when she couldn't explain how she couldn't describe someone who was kneeling on her waving a knife in her face.

14. The screen fragments on a knife found in the home.

15. The lack of any stolen property.

16. No theft or sexual assualt. Guy(s) just break in and beat mothers arms and stab children to death?

17. The broken and closed back gate through which the "intruder was said to have left.

18. The cut screen, which didn't need to be cut, had no stretching or fray which would be needed to explain a large man exiting that small area.

19. The arm bruising that mysteriously appears some days after the assaults.

20. Her unreleased lie detector test

21. Her documented hystronic tendencies.

22. Her poor me supporter writings. (you have to see these to believe em!)

23. All appeals have been turned down.

24. No new evidence has been released.

25. All new evidence she says she has is "secret".

26. Her latest appeals seem to throw Darin into suspicion, but wisely she does so with the greatest caution, and then tells supporters that it was not her idea but her lawyers.

There is tons and tons more. But that is all I can think of at this moment.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Hey Jeana sweetie..Happy Turkey Day by the way!!!
What up with Texas anyway??? Seems to be an overabundance of women going off the deep end in your neck of the woods...( Andrea Yates)...., the latest the woman who cut off her babys' arms???? Any thoughts on why ?? Sumthin' in the water...maybe a little oil mixed in...????

I wish I knew. Texas is a big state with a large population, so its possible we have our proportionate share - but it sure does seem like we've got a lot of these type of cases. Could be that our "mental" health system is seriously flawed. I mean, Andrea Yates was found competent to stand trial, with her long history of mental illness. Then, this recent woman who bashed in the heads of her children was found not guilty by reason of insanity with absolutely NO history of mental illess.

The woman who just cut off the arms of her 10 month old baby obviously had a history of mental illness, so it could go either way. While I'm so seriously "f"ing sick of hearing about murdered children and parents with excuses, if there's a history of mental illness the person needs to be in a hospital, not on death row.

 

[smellsarat]

Hey Dasgal...a portion of your post screamed out at me!!!

"1.Darlie was suffering from post partum depression and was also taking fenphen for weight loss and paxel for depression. Combine this with verbal abuse from Darin, no money, late bills, lots of stress, no car, and kids that were driving her nuts."


Aha...I didn't know that....I've often thought drugs are really a major factor in depressed people taking a plunge into violent behavior......
Jeffrey MacDonald I think is a prime example as are the Columbine killers....Don't get me wrong I am a big believer in chemical drug help for those suffering from mental illness...But I am well aware that due to the unknown factor in taking these drugs...often it is anyones guess which way a subject will go...either better or far worse.....it is a crapshoot in some cases and the lack of overseeing these people by Drs...some whom have really no great knowledge of the very drugs they prescribe , can be deadly!!!
In Darlies case I find the mixing of two drugs..one only recently prescribed ...fix that..both only recently introduced into the market...you have a situation that is an accident waiting to happpen!!!!
The rise in depression in this country and the lack of Psychopharmacolgists to treat them in a knowledgable manner has contributed greatly to the resulting violence.

Just my take...

 

[smellsarat]

I wish I knew. Texas is a big state with a large population, so its possible we have our proportionate share - but it sure does seem like we've got a lot of these type of cases. Could be that our "mental" health system is seriously flawed. I mean, Andrea Yates was found competent to stand trial, with her long history of mental illness. Then, this recent woman who bashed in the heads of her children was found not guilty by reason of insanity with absolutely NO history of mental illess.

The woman who just cut off the arms of her 10 month old baby obviously had a history of mental illness, so it could go either way. While I'm so seriously "f"ing sick of hearing about murdered children and parents with excuses, if there's a history of mental illness the person needs to be in a hospital, not on death row.

I agree wholeheartedly with that!!!!I really think the govmnt needs to become more involved in mental health...years ago it was much better for these folks..but since deinstitutionalization it has gone downhill..This is one area I do favor Govmnt intervention...much like the Kennedys push for help for the mentally retarded.......The growing problem of depression...which I have had my own opinions as to why for over 20 years....has contributed to a colossal problem that is threatening the future of this country.

By the way I have said it again and again... And 20 years ago I predicted this very problem growing.... think the reason are
#1.chemicals insiduously permeating every aspect of our modern industrialized environment and
#2 poor nutrition.....

 

[Hopeful One]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:

Not enough time for her to commit the crimes and clean up (starting with beginning of 911 call, taking the sock down the alley, etc.)

The severe bruising of her arms - I don't believe this was self-inflicted

The direction of the knife wounds suggests Darlie would have had to switch hands (cut with the right hand, then switch the knife to the left and cut herself again), which I don't believe is reasonable in this case

Darin inquiring just three days before the murders about having someone burglarize the home for the insurance money (was this a burglary attempt gone awry?)

The mysterious black car

The unidentified bloody fingerprint on the table behind the couch

(that's all I can think of right now and I'm in a hurry, I'm sure there's more!)

 

[lisafremont]

Shamrock, how is it possible that Darlie slept through the attacks on both her sons?

Why did she suffer a different kind of wound than they did?

Why did she change the story of the event so many times?

Why did she pick up the knife and mention it on the 911 call?

Couldn't she have slashed herself just before calling 911? Wouldn't that give her enough time?

Couldn't the bruises have come from a fight with Darin?

 

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:

Not enough time for her to commit the crimes and clean up (starting with beginning of 911 call, taking the sock down the alley, etc.)

(that's all I can think of right now and I'm in a hurry, I'm sure there's more!)

Hi, I post under Dasgal, Jon Galt, Jongaltlives, and Flaxonmoon. I have been posting on this case for years. To follow, I am pulling old posts of mine as way of rebuttle. (I'm older and lazier now.)
The following was written not as a literal timeline but to show that Darlie did have ample time to commit the killings, staging, and sock.

Routier Crime Timeline


Author: JonGalt, Apr/12/2002 17:34:10 [-05 EST]

0100 hrs. Darin retires to bed



0150 hrs. Everyone in the home is asleep except for Darlie Routier. During this time she revists photos of herself and the two boys in a photo album. Later it is found that the book was open, and blood deposited on these pictures during the attacks. Darlie arms herself with a knife.



0151 hrs. Darlie stabs Damon Routier in her first attack. During this attack, she stabs herself in her own right arm. She stabs Damon with wound one and two.



0155 hrs. Darlie stabs Devon Routier who has stirred awake and risen during his brother’s attack. He is stabbed the first time, stabbers face to his front. Wound number one is the first one delivered. Wound number 2 is delivered as Devon is face up on the carpet, most likely dying, with the attacker at his head, most likely on knees, stabbing downward and accross the torso. NOTE: THIS IS THE ONLY WOUND WHICH THE STABBING IS REVERSED. It is also delivered prior to his actual death.



0156 hrs. Devon is dead.



0158 hrs. Darlie paces and thinks of how to handle this situation. She paces from Devon, the last attack, to the front door. She decides to "clean up" what evidence she can. She goes to the kitchen.



0205 hrs. Darlie begins wetting towels to wash areas of the couch and sink. The ends of said towels are dry, but bloodsmeared, and they were used to dry. She leaves the towels in these approximate areas of the living room as she realizes that she continues to bleed and that she cannot clean more than flat surfaces.



0210 hrs. Darlie sits on the trunk by the front door, removes the socks, and dons the high tops. She sprints out the front door and drops the sock 75 yards away, and returns to the house, where she slips her feet out of the still laced hightops.



0212 hrs. She enters the kitchen, and rinses the knife and tries to cut her throat, but stops due to pain. She then rinses out the sink basin. She uses only one side of sink as the baby bottle is still upright.



0222 hrs. Darlie tips the coffee table and deposits a fairly large amount of blood there.



0225 hrs. Darlie enters the utility room to get the towel she uses for her own wounds. She is bleeding freely in the utility room.



0227 hrs. Darlie holds towel to neck as she cuts screen. She leaves a small amount of blood in the garage.



0230 hrs She notices Damon has left his original attack position, and is crawling or dragging himself towards the door. (During this time he has tried to stand by using a glass top table leaving his print in Darlie's blood) She is winded, and her right arm and neck are cut, but she gets to him before he makes it to the door, laying him flat down, laying down the knife to do so because she needs both hands as the right is weak due to the wound. She picks the knife up again, and delivers wounds (hesitation) one and two. She also delivers wound number four. She then switches hands and delivers stab wound number 3.



0231 hrs. Darlie originates the 911 call. Just before she does so, or during, she lays the knife on counter. Smashes wine glass, knocks lampshade off, and downs vaccuum before Darin can get downstairs. (However lampshade may have been downed during attack on Devon.)



0231.30 hrs. Darin comes downstairs.



0235 hrs. Dog heard barking on 911 tape. Officer enters home at this time. Ok-for this I have used the 911 call, both autopsies, and have relied extensively on the blood map. Naturally, the times are only those I suppose. The purpose of this exercise, as I understand it, is to explain all evidence, using the timeline allowed. I believe that the second attack on Damon is the one that killed him. If we suppose that the final attack happened just before 911 call, there is ample time. I have also used more time than needed during all actions should I need to revise somewhat. My guess is that I will have to do some revision, as I wrote this very spur of the moment.



Evidence included in this exercise:

• The bloody fingerprint.

• The knife impression.

• All stab wounds. Darlie’s wounds. (excluding the bruising which I believe happened later)

• The sock.

• The mixed blood at sink.

• The blood in utility and garage.

• The cut screen.

• The lack of blood in the backyard or on gate, or in alley.

• The kitchen clean up and the wet towels.

• The lack of running water or barking dog.

• The time of 911 origination.

• The table, lamp, vacuum, and wine glass.

• The time of Darin coming downstairs.

• The time of officer entering home.

 

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:



The severe bruising of her arms - I don't believe this was self-inflicted

This is a very short part of a very long discussion we are having elsewhere on the net. I can't pull the other people's comments, but here are a few of mine:

Well having shown it to lots of folks in the medical field, there are only two that keep coming back:

1. She nicked the bone and you are seeing a sort of lividity (closed system so I'm told vs. open system as in death or maybe it's the other way around, I can't recall any more).

2. "Wall Bruising"-one extremely hard blow from one large object to another ie: dashboard/torso in car wreck.

But, it definately DOES NOT fit with a beating. I guess that was the point I was trying to make. The only thing that looks like a possible attack to me, and I'm talking about every wound she has, is the restraint bruising on her wrists. But I also theorize that came from a very pissed off Darin.

But at any rate I'M SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!!!!



I guess I need to explain to you why I am saying people say that she couldn't have done it to herself, and then turn around and tell you that she did.

The reason is that every other thing in this case points to her killing those children. Every little tiny thing. And you know I don't take any of this stuff lightly.

So, if she killed the boys as I think she did, then she HAD to produce those bruises on her own. Darin didn't do it because it's just NOT a beating. There are no differing impacts. It is one impact by something large or it's internal bleeding. Period. So how could that happen from an attack? I can't think of one darn thing, but I CAN think of a few ways she could have done it to herself.

Brenda, I've looked at it every way I can think of. I keep asking the question because I'm hoping that I can find another plausible reason they could have happened. It's a piece of the puzzle that just doesn't fit as nicely as I would like.


1100.30 in reply to 1100.27 I'll have to send you an e-mail when I get more time. I have a Keno game to go to in just a bit. woohoo Keno!

What were you wondering about the shirt? Maybe I can just repost it.

As for the knife, from what I understand is that you CAN bleed both internally and externally from a stab wound depending on what is hit.
At first when I heard that, due to the way the bruising is on the inner arm, I thought it must have settled that way from having been unconcious. But then I had to rethink that because it's on the inner parts of BOTH arms. Then someone gave me the obvious answer. She was standing, and the internal bleeding went down. Having been stabbed (direction only) outer elbow to inner elbow, that allowed that to happen where and how it did. But then what about the bruising up to the underarms? Seems there was an answer for that too.
Once she laid down in that hospital bed, the blood that had pooled in the inner arm area leveled out. It didn't travel up, it just spread out.

 

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:


The direction of the knife wounds suggests Darlie would have had to switch hands (cut with the right hand, then switch the knife to the left and cut herself again), which I don't believe is reasonable in this case

She had to switch arms. She had a stab wound in the right forearm. Also, the bloody imprint of the knife on the carpet supports that she switched hands.

 

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:



Darin inquiring just three days before the murders about having someone burglarize the home for the insurance money (was this a burglary attempt gone awry?)

Maybe. You have to remember that the only word you have on this is Darin's.
So why then does a burglar enter and steal nothing? Not even jewlery right on the way in? Why does a burglar borrow a knife from the victims kitchen to break in? If he has the knife from the kitchen to cut the screen, hasn't he already BEEN in? Why would a burglar kill two sleeping kids when it's the mother who had the ability to stop and or identify him?

 

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:



The mysterious black car


(that's all I can think of right now and I'm in a hurry, I'm sure there's more!)

There was no more a black car than there was Laci Peterson walking her dog immediatly before she disappeared. Also, the hundreds of people who called in swearing they saw her were apparently being dishonest.
There is neighborhood hysteria in every case like the Routier case. I'll put it like this:

All the neighbors are standing around talking about the horrible murders. One of the folks say, "I saw this really creep black car about that time". The next one says, "You know, I think I saw that car too just a few days ago". And on and on it goes.

Just for giggles, one day I sat in front of my picture window in my living room and counted the number of black cars that passed in 2 hours.
Twenty Two.
No make or model, just "black". No one sees anyone driving. Does it have tinted windows? What color do you think of when you think of evil or scary. It shouldn't be, but most people's answer is the color black.
I'm not saying these few people who "saw" the "black car" are lying. I'm saying that they probably DID see a black car the week preceeding the murders. But they would have also seen white cars, red cars, silver cars.....

 

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:



The unidentified bloody fingerprint on the table behind the couch

It did not have enough discernable points. After exhumating both children and removing their hands, it was determined that it was UNLIKELY that the prints belonged to the boys. However, you must also remember that the boys had been removed from a flooded coffin, several years after their murders. Furthermore, people who had been paid by the defense had to rehydrate their fingers to even get a print to begin with. These "experts" then made a determination. I may have missed it, but as I understand it, the documentation of this "scientific process" was never released.

Another defense paid "expert" said that it belonged to a juvenile or young woman, but again, not enough discerable points to make a ruling.