John molested JonBenet. Burke inflicted the fatal head blow on JonBenet. Patsy garroted a braindead JonBenet to make it look like an intruder killed JonBenet.
New theory?
- Thread starter sillyrabbit353
- Start date
I don't believe the series of attacks was a group activity with all 3 surviving family members participating or that there is any evidence to suggest this.
I don't think that the series of attacks was a group activity with all three surviving family members participating either. John (individually, not as a group activity involving Burke or Patsy) molested JonBenet in the few weeks preceding Christmas 1996. Burke (individually) inflicted the fatal head blow from sometime between 11 pm on Christmas night to around 01:00 a.m. on December 26. Patsy and John did not want Burke to inflict the fatal head wound on JonBenet. Burke just accidentally killed JonBenet on his own. So the killing was not really a group activity.
Then Patsy garroted JonBenet to make it look like an intruder killed JonBenet. John and Patsy staged the sexual assault of JonBenet to account for the evidence that someone was molesting JonBenet (which would be found during autopsy).
Edited to add: Actually, I believe PDI. But I just listed this BDI scenario to answer Swirlz's question.
Although I think PDI is more likely, I do think that it is quite possible that the BDI scenario I mentioned is what happened.
Last edited:
@Swirlz
Perhaps you are correct about John's fiber evidence. I had thought that the fibers found on JonBenet were from his (grey?) shirt that was made in Israel. Previously, I did not know JR was wearing a sweater. Did he wear it to the Whites', or put it on after coming home, but before going to bed? Whichever, I do not see how his fibers are proof that he was responsible for the final assault on Christmas night. Are you implying that JR was also responsible for the chronic SA? I do not disagree necessarily; I just ask for your view. However, I do believe that the SA, in one way or another, was the motive for the murder.
If and when JR wiped her down, he had to be cognizant of Burke's inappropriate long johns, as well as the over-large size 12s. Was JR the one who redressed his daughter so absurdly? Did John know where the size 12s were kept? Of course, this brings up the missing size 6s. Did JR dispose of them?
Perhaps you are correct about John's fiber evidence. I had thought that the fibers found on JonBenet were from his (grey?) shirt that was made in Israel. Previously, I did not know JR was wearing a sweater. Did he wear it to the Whites', or put it on after coming home, but before going to bed? Whichever, I do not see how his fibers are proof that he was responsible for the final assault on Christmas night. Are you implying that JR was also responsible for the chronic SA? I do not disagree necessarily; I just ask for your view. However, I do believe that the SA, in one way or another, was the motive for the murder.
If and when JR wiped her down, he had to be cognizant of Burke's inappropriate long johns, as well as the over-large size 12s. Was JR the one who redressed his daughter so absurdly? Did John know where the size 12s were kept? Of course, this brings up the missing size 6s. Did JR dispose of them?
The fibers were sourced to John's black sweater made in Israel. John wore this sweater to the White's.
In the crime-scene walk through you can see what looks like a black Hefty bag at the bottom of the staircase leading up to JBR's bedroom. This was said to have contained used clothing for the Good Will. A plausible theory is that not wanting to go back upstairs and potentially wake Burke up, the long johns were taken out of the bag. (To be fair, JBR was rumored to have occasionally worn Burke's hand-me-downs so it's possible she'd already been wearing them. This seems unlikely to me though because in the pic taken that morning, she's wearing pink girls pajamas.) JBR's party pants, vest and boots were in a heap right inside her bedroom door. The white top she presumably wore to the party (there's a pic of her wearing the top that seems to fit with her being at the party) was on the body. Patsy claimed to have purchased the size 12 underpants for a relative's child. Gifts not yet distributed were kept in the basement. A likely scenario is that Patsy, who would know where those were, got them out to redress the body in.
Carol McKinley who is a reputable journalist said at one point that a source, investigator Pete Mang, told her a pair of urine soaked underpants were found balled up behind a chair in JBR's bedroom. I'm not sure what to make of this info because there doesn't seem to be a chair in any pic of JBR's bedroom. I think it's possible the original pair of underpants was flushed down the toilet. I suppose it's also possible she wasn't wearing any.
Do I think John was responsible for chronic abuse of JBR? His fibers link him to the sexual assault that night. He was the only adult male who had ongoing access to JBR. Child abuse investigator Holly Smith made a point of saying she considered a child's bedroom an important part of any child abuse investigation. JBR's bedroom was a floor below the master bedroom and on the opposite side of the hall from Burke. A staircase leading from right outside JBR's bedroom door went up to the master bedroom bathroom. A former maid said it was mostly John's idea to put her there. Holly Smith was abruptly removed from the case. Linda Arndt later stated in her depo that Boulder Social Services believed John was responsible for "incest". Holly Smith was part of Boulder Social Services.
In the crime-scene walk through you can see what looks like a black Hefty bag at the bottom of the staircase leading up to JBR's bedroom. This was said to have contained used clothing for the Good Will. A plausible theory is that not wanting to go back upstairs and potentially wake Burke up, the long johns were taken out of the bag. (To be fair, JBR was rumored to have occasionally worn Burke's hand-me-downs so it's possible she'd already been wearing them. This seems unlikely to me though because in the pic taken that morning, she's wearing pink girls pajamas.) JBR's party pants, vest and boots were in a heap right inside her bedroom door. The white top she presumably wore to the party (there's a pic of her wearing the top that seems to fit with her being at the party) was on the body. Patsy claimed to have purchased the size 12 underpants for a relative's child. Gifts not yet distributed were kept in the basement. A likely scenario is that Patsy, who would know where those were, got them out to redress the body in.
Carol McKinley who is a reputable journalist said at one point that a source, investigator Pete Mang, told her a pair of urine soaked underpants were found balled up behind a chair in JBR's bedroom. I'm not sure what to make of this info because there doesn't seem to be a chair in any pic of JBR's bedroom. I think it's possible the original pair of underpants was flushed down the toilet. I suppose it's also possible she wasn't wearing any.
Do I think John was responsible for chronic abuse of JBR? His fibers link him to the sexual assault that night. He was the only adult male who had ongoing access to JBR. Child abuse investigator Holly Smith made a point of saying she considered a child's bedroom an important part of any child abuse investigation. JBR's bedroom was a floor below the master bedroom and on the opposite side of the hall from Burke. A staircase leading from right outside JBR's bedroom door went up to the master bedroom bathroom. A former maid said it was mostly John's idea to put her there. Holly Smith was abruptly removed from the case. Linda Arndt later stated in her depo that Boulder Social Services believed John was responsible for "incest". Holly Smith was part of Boulder Social Services.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2022
- Messages
- 840
- Reaction score
- 3,743
Yes. This is a good assessment IMO. IIRC, there were the fibers from JR's shirt (which was wool) found on the body, and some dark blue cotton fibers surmised to be from whatever was used to wipe her down before she was redressed. I too think that the long johns were part of the redressing and that she did not wear those to bed. The clothing item that contained the most amount of JB's blood, was her favorite pink Barbie nightgown. IMO, the evidence points to her having initially worn that to bed before the clothing change.
It's also very interesting to me that JR's very first story to two different police officers on the morning of the 26th, that he had read to the kids before bed that night. One version is that he read to JB. Burke has never included this in any of his accounts, he admits playing with one of his new toys and it makes sense to me knowing what we know of him that's what he'd be interested in.
Of course the original story changed after lawyering up and became the "she was asleep" story 4 months later. Even Burke has said she was awake. IMO the original story had to be changed for two major reasons. First, for the timeline of everyone being in bed and asleep by 10:30PM to work with the probable TOD and no one hearing anything.
The 2nd reason, is that JR reading to JB places him with her after PR had gotten her ready for bed. His story later became all about distancing himself from JB after placing her asleep on the bed for PR to deal with. Then as the story goes, he went to help Burke with the toy and help him to bed. This also opens the door to Burke making the pineapple snack because both kids were actually up and awake, no one was in bed and sound asleep by 10:30.
What happened next of course is what everyone still debates. My personal opinion is that something happened in JB's room with JR, who may have thought PR went to bed, when in fact she was doing last minute packing. She may very well have gone to check on JB before going to bed herself (which is where she may have thought JR was). Her mother said that she would often wake JB up before going to bed herself to make her use the bathroom in hopes of preventing another bed wetting incident.
Burke has never to my recollection said that JR helped him put that toy together. That is only what JR came up with later on. Burke told Dr. Phil that he went back downstairs after he thought everyone else was asleep to put the toy together. Burke's reaction at the interview in 2008 to seeing the picture of the bowl of pineapple and being asked to identify it was telling. One can argue that he was coached to stay away from that topic. Whatever the case, his reaction says he knew that to be a sensitive subject that he needed to steer clear from.
It is curious that Burked had no difficulty in identifying the glass of tea. Neither the tea nor the pineapple had been completely consumed. JonBenet could not have managed to retrieve the fruit from the fridge. Presumably, it'd be easier to determine how long the pineapple & milk had been on the counter, than the tea.
Would Patsy have made the error of the size 12s? A bigger question is why JB needed to be clad in them. The wrong size drew much more attention, than if JB had been found not wearing any panties. Too clever by half. There is blood on the Barbie nightgown, but none in JB's room. Rumor has it that LE collected several pairs of underwear from the house. Before Pam's raid?
Would Patsy have made the error of the size 12s? A bigger question is why JB needed to be clad in them. The wrong size drew much more attention, than if JB had been found not wearing any panties. Too clever by half. There is blood on the Barbie nightgown, but none in JB's room. Rumor has it that LE collected several pairs of underwear from the house. Before Pam's raid?
I don't recall Burke identifying the glass of tea. It's possible I forgot but I as far as I recall, in the portion of video made public, he's only shown the pineapple. According to Steve Thomas, a first responder said he remembered there being a larger container of pineapple in the fridge so I guess it's possible JBR could've taken a piece from there.
The oversized pair of underpants was put on her to avoid having to go back upstairs, they were just what happened to be on hand. They were intended to be a gift for Patsy's niece and were already in the basement. The stagers were panicked and were hardly criminal masterminds.
The blood on the nightgown was just trace amounts and probably wasn't from that night.
The oversized pair of underpants was put on her to avoid having to go back upstairs, they were just what happened to be on hand. They were intended to be a gift for Patsy's niece and were already in the basement. The stagers were panicked and were hardly criminal masterminds.
The blood on the nightgown was just trace amounts and probably wasn't from that night.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2022
- Messages
- 840
- Reaction score
- 3,743
The nightgown had the most amount of JB's blood on it than any other item, it was not just trace amounts. There were several droplets, which were thought to have come from her nose. It was her favorite clothing item to wear to bed and it had to be washed often because of her bed wetting. We know she was changed from what she was previously wearing to bed, and the nightgown was found balled up next to her in the WC. I think there is a very good chance that's what she initially wore to bed.
JR made a few telling statements about that nightgown. He stated that when JB dressed herself for bed, she always chose that nightgown. He also stated that on the night in question, he laid JB down on the bed and took off her shoes, knowing that PR would change her into her nightgown for bed. He specifically said "nightgown".
The pink Barbie nightgown was known to be her favorite, her favorite clothing item. And yet PR tried to play that off and pretend that it wasn't. Her mother and sister contradicted her on that, it was well known it was her favorite.
She was pictured in PJ's on Christmas morning. LHP noted that the sheets that were on JB's bed were NOT the sheets she had made up JB's bed with on 12/23. She also stated that JB did not have many sheet sets, so they were constantly being washed because of the (almost nightly) bed wetting along with the white blanket and whatever she had worn to bed.
I don't think it can be said with any certainty that the blood found on the nightgown was not from that night. There was also a trace of blood found on her pillowcase.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2022
- Messages
- 840
- Reaction score
- 3,743
IIRC, the glass contained only a used tea bag. No tea residue was found in the glass, and no lip prints only BR's finger print. Leading to the assumption that whatever tea may have been consumed was in another cup or glass, and only the tea bag was dumped in the glass. I do not recall any mention of finding whatever vessel the tea was in that had been consumed.
As we know that JB had been wiped down before being put in the size 12 panties and the long johns, and that fibers belonging to JR's shirt were found in sensitive areas on the body, this points to him having been the person to wipe her down and put her in those items of clothing. Also from what we know, it's likely that the size 12's were in the basement meant as a gift for PR's niece. What makes the most sense to me is that it was JR who put those on her, with the long johns over them so it's very possible that PR never saw the panties. She claimed that JB wanted them, and so she had put the package in JB's dresser drawer. But no package with the rest of the panties was ever found. The long johns were rumored to have been in a bag downstairs with other items of clothing that were to be donated. It seems likely that these items of clothing were used because of their convenient proximity of being downstairs.
IIRC there was a trace amount of JB's blood found on her pillowcase in addition to the nightgown.
O.k., this discussion motivated me to do some research and this was all I could find. I was pretty sure there was some blood found on JBR's nightgown. This is snipped from Steve Thomas' 2001 deposition.
Q. Was there any blood evidence found on that nightgown?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. Was there any blood evidence found on that nightgown?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2022
- Messages
- 840
- Reaction score
- 3,743
He's wrong. But as you can see, the nightgown was not sent for testing / blood analysis until April of 2008. So perhaps as he said, he simply was not aware.
Last edited:
Patsy's story about the Bloomis is another typical R conundrum . She buys them in NYC for her niece, Jen, in GA. After returning to Boulder, she never got around to sending them out; even though PR made a BIG deal about the Holidays? (Could Bloomingdale's have shipped them directly?) Right after the return from WI, the family was embarking on a cruise. Was PR planning to send them out as soon as she got back to CO? Anyway, Santa wasn't nice to Jen. JonBenet also had a set in a smaller size. But for some reason, JB wanted to keep the over large ones. (Huh?) So her mother stored them in JB's drawer. The implication is that the size 12s were not gift wrapped. I agree that PR seemed surprised by the size 12s, and with dramatic skill, improvised an answer.
As the Barbie nightgown was JB's favorite, was it meant to go along with her to Charlevoix?
So, Patsy & JB knew about the two differing sets. But did John and/or Burke not only know of their existence, but also, where to find them in a hurry? This would be harder if the size 12s had been gift wrapped. They seem more likely to have been responsible for the clumsy redressing. The attempted cover up with the same appropriate day of the week undies is rather unsophisticated. Would someone who read John Douglas make this obvious error? It is possible that JR wiped her down after the redressing, and did not notice the wrong size. If it were true that JB occasionally wore the long johns, then it'd not seem odd that she was in them. (Perhaps, this is turning BDI, which is not my intention. Then again...)
However, John could not eradicate blood evidence. No semen found. Then what did he wipe off her? (Bit of Patsy's paints is just a far far out suggestion. Acrylics are water soluble) It seems that this process is linked to why the size 6s had to disappear. And this disappearance is probably linked to the final assault. Whether this was also staging is another conundrum, which takes longer to get into than I care to take right now!
The tale of the Bloomis has the same Baroque confusion as the murder itself. It's all of a piece done by the same hand(s). Messy, yet sly. Kinda like a signature.
As the Barbie nightgown was JB's favorite, was it meant to go along with her to Charlevoix?
So, Patsy & JB knew about the two differing sets. But did John and/or Burke not only know of their existence, but also, where to find them in a hurry? This would be harder if the size 12s had been gift wrapped. They seem more likely to have been responsible for the clumsy redressing. The attempted cover up with the same appropriate day of the week undies is rather unsophisticated. Would someone who read John Douglas make this obvious error? It is possible that JR wiped her down after the redressing, and did not notice the wrong size. If it were true that JB occasionally wore the long johns, then it'd not seem odd that she was in them. (Perhaps, this is turning BDI, which is not my intention. Then again...)
However, John could not eradicate blood evidence. No semen found. Then what did he wipe off her? (Bit of Patsy's paints is just a far far out suggestion. Acrylics are water soluble) It seems that this process is linked to why the size 6s had to disappear. And this disappearance is probably linked to the final assault. Whether this was also staging is another conundrum, which takes longer to get into than I care to take right now!
The tale of the Bloomis has the same Baroque confusion as the murder itself. It's all of a piece done by the same hand(s). Messy, yet sly. Kinda like a signature.
Last edited:
To answer the question of what it was that was wiped off of her; blood. Blood was still present at the time of the autopsy because she continued to bleed after she'd been wiped. Dead bodies don't bleed. She was wiped before she was strangled.
Ponytale
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2024
- Messages
- 388
- Reaction score
- 1,437
Exactly! And that is why I believe that she was also SA'd before she was strangled, not assaulted with the paint brush after she was dead to make it look like she was SA'd or to cover up the previous evidence of SA.
And I somehow do not believe that gift for a niece story. Who would buy underwear as a gift for their niece? It is something that a mother would buy for their child. I sure would not be happy if someone would buy me or my daughter underwear as a gift. I would sure raise my brows...
Similar threads
Online statistics
- Members online
- 76
- Guests online
- 1,041
- Total visitors
- 1,117