PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[Chimera]

What gets me is how cool, calm and collected the boyfriend's behavior was as he casually strolled into the gym, which was captured on security camera. Nonetheless, I can't think of anyone who could stab themselves that many times and withstand the pain, I go to pieces when I get a paper cut. Not to mention that in my own attempted reenactment of the moves she would have to make, she would have to have very flexible, even double jointed arms. It's just too absurd to even entertain the idea of suicide.

Ita.

Graphic comment :

To stab yourself in the back of the neck and head, you'd have to possibly put both hands on the knife and plunge it in.
The problem as I see it is you can't get enough force with one or both hands while drawing them away from your back -- to push the blade in as deeply as her wounds were.
It's literally impossible.
Imo.

 

[Same Old Stella]

Ita.

Graphic comment :

To stab yourself in the back of the neck and head, you'd have to possibly put both hands on the knife and plunge it in.
The problem as I see it is you can't get enough force with one or both hands while drawing them away from your back -- to push the blade in as deeply as her wounds were.
It's literally impossible.
Imo.

Exactly. It would take almost inhuman strength and flexibility of movement.

 

[snarast]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1977814035694276689

O M G

I didn’t even notice until now. Oh this is surreal.

 

[snarast]

Exactly. It would take almost inhuman strength and flexibility of movement.

And really carved up hands. If she was holding the knife’s blade as she was stabbing herself at the very back of her neck.

 

[Chimera]

“young woman suffering from anxiety.

Stunning new ruling in mysterious 2011 stabbing death of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg

Greenberg was found with stab wounds all over, including the back of her head and her heart.

nypost.com

…

According to Simon young women with anxiety are prone to stab themselves multiple times till they die.

Jmo

Generally with women, sleeping pills or an overdose of something.
Possibly jumping ?
Very rare to stab oneself multiple times.

It's the location and severity of the wounds that gives pause.
So according to the link Ellen beat herself up, too ?
Ridiculous.

So sorry her parents are having to listen to all of this.
Omo.

 

[RobertCatesby]

Generally with women, sleeping pills or an overdose of something.
Possibly jumping ?
Very rare to stab oneself multiple times.

It's the location and severity of the wounds that gives pause.
So according to the link Ellen beat herself up, too ?
Ridiculous.

So sorry her parents are having to listen to all of this.
Omo.

Amy Fry-Pitzen committed suicide by "slashing her wrists and neck and overdosing on antihistamines", so it does happen on occasion. But in most cases, including that one, I agree that some kind of drugs or pills are usually involved. With Greenberg, it was such obviously a homicide it's insane. We need to be talking about who did it, not the manner of death.

 

[Queen of the Winter Night]

“young woman suffering from anxiety.

Stunning new ruling in mysterious 2011 stabbing death of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg

Greenberg was found with stab wounds all over, including the back of her head and her heart.

nypost.com

…

According to Simon young women with anxiety are prone to stab themselves multiple times till they die.

Jmo

oh jfc, I can't with this ruling. I struggle with clinically diagnosed anxiety. If you ever hear of me having been stabbed 20 times, I guarantee you I didn't do it to myself.

This is straight up absurd. Has there ever been a case where someone committed suicide by stabbing themselves so many times, so deeply, on such different parts of their bodies including incredibly hard to reach places?

 

[Nieves]

How a multiple stab could be suicide? I do not understand...

 

[nighttimesleuth]

I want to see proof that LE tested every inch of every knife in that kitchen for DNA.

And why WOULDN'T his DNA be on it? Isn't that odd on its own? He lives in that home and used those knives. The fact the DNA wasn't there means it was wiped...

 

[snarast]

oh jfc, I can't with this ruling. I struggle with clinically diagnosed anxiety. If you ever hear of me having been stabbed 20 times, I guarantee you I didn't do it to myself.

This is straight up absurd. Has there ever been a case where someone committed suicide by stabbing themselves so many times, so deeply, on such different parts of their bodies including incredibly hard to reach places?

Exactly.

 

[Nieves]

O M G

I didn’t even notice until now. Oh this is surreal.

I agree. So surreal.

 

[nighttimesleuth]

This is shocking and seems like a blatant cover up by the ME's office in Philadelphia. They had to be forced to look again and then hesitated until being told by a judge it was unacceptable. Suddenly they release a new report agreeing with the old report the day before the hearing? This couldn't look fishier if someone had tried to look fishy.

I feel so badly for her parents who must feel so exhausted and gaslit by all of those on this case. Even if the examiner didn't feel there was sufficient evidence for homicide there was also the same level of insufficient evidence for suicide - undetermined would have made more sense and looked less like a cover up.

 

[snarast]

The fact that they will not set it to undetermined is….well unfathomable - unless there actually is some damning - actionable - evidence.

That’s probably the post mortem stab and possibly the unbroken lock.

IMHOO

 

[snarast]

Does it bother anyone else that the only person of color involved centrally in this debacle - Dr Osbourne - has his authority completely disregarded, completely ignored.

I know he has been criticised but he is one of three people who are the reasons we even know about Ellen’s true fate. And he has been treated horribly through all this. Strong armed and pushed around.

And the other person of color - at the apartments - there Sam tried to force him up to be his witness, then he famously stated to LE this guy was with him as he ”broke down” the door. Lied about him to the police - do they ask him? Nooo. The word of the posh white guy with the worlds craziest 911 call on his resume and a judge on his arm is worth so much more.

Gah.

IMHOO

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Even if the examiner didn't feel there was sufficient evidence for homicide there was also the same level of insufficient evidence for suicide - undetermined would have made more sense

Exactly right.
ETA: In my opinion, the evidence is there, but at least call it undetermined. This is so wrong.

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1977859669100990517

 

[arielilane]

This conclusion of death by suicide is not shocking nor was it a surprise. moo
My thoughts are with Ellen's parents Josh and Sandee Greenberg.

There is a 1:00 pm ET hearing today. This hearing was already scheduled previously.

 

[Queen of the Winter Night]

When there are homicide cases where someone is stabbed at least 20 times, isn't it a determination by detectives that the victim had to be "passionately hated" or some such by the perpetrator? So what is the psychological determination if someone does it to themselves? I have looked at several timelines and videos and I don't believe I've seen a breakdown of how this could happen like the ME is claiming. Please forgive me if I am misremembering. Does a breakdown exist of this both in terms of how this could be physically possible (not just reaching certain stab location but also in terms of lucidity, blood loss, etc.) AND physiologically possible to do this to oneself? These should be easy to breakdown if it's true as they claim....

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Philadelphia court case over Ellen Greenberg’s ‘suicide’ by stabbing ends with a whimper - Penn Live

In early September, Judge Linda A. Carpenter delivered an extended tongue-lashing to the city attorney representing the medical examiner over why Ellen Greenberg’s manner of death hadn’t been changed from suicide to undetermined.

“The court is frustrated. I never really understood why this couldn’t be changed to ‘undetermined’ from the beginning,” Carpenter said.
...
Only, the new report didn’t do what so many court observers, including apparently the judge, were expecting. The 35-page report based on a six-month re-examination of all the evidence in the case didn’t vacate the suicide ruling in Ellen’s brutal, bloody death.
...
So, as the hearing convened, the Greenbergs and their attorneys had received their long-awaited report. It just didn’t say what they wanted it to say.

As Greenberg attorney Joseph Podraza indicated to Judge Carpenter, that is a matter for another day – and another case, should the Greenbergs choose to bring what would be a third civil suit in their daughter’s death.

For now, the Ellen Greenberg court case is over. And her parents’ 14-year battle for “justice for Ellen” is at a pause.

The anticlimactic ending took all of a minute or two to wrap up.

“We consider this matter closed, at least for the petition that was before the court,” Podraza told the judge. “What the future holds, we will see.”

 

[Tricia]

THANK YOU SMELLY SQUIRREL
.We will be discussing the Ellen Greenberg case tonight at 10:30 P.M Eastern on Websleuths YouTube LIVE
CLICK HERE and join us tonight