GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[Tragg]

Does anyone find it odd that BK was in two CJ programs, and one recommended him to continue his studies in the other program…
And no red flags were noticed by the experts early enough to stop him from brutal murders?

If the experts do not notice the signs, and are not confident enough in their red flags, what makes us think anyone of us could recognize red flags that could be used to prevent?

What is the solution here then?
Did reports of young women at De Sales go unreported? Or not taken seriously?
Did issues at De Sales go unreported?

The hope of such CJ, criminal psychology, forensic psychology, profiling etc. is to catch a killer before they kill, before Grape, before a terrorist attack, before there are harmed victims.

So how are we doing?? It doesn’t sound like we are moving toward prevention.
It sounds like we still are reacting.

There was enough on BK to kick him out of his PhD program… but not to investigate… until there were four bodies.

I find that truth quite disturbing

IMO

Dr. Ramsland has said this many times: at this point no one can identify these killers or predict their future behavior. Our belief that we can, or that parents, teachers, and others can and should, is completely false. Nor do we know what interventions with these men would have changed their course. (BK's parents did try to get him help).

That is very very disturbing, I agree.

If this issue has been studied, I suspect investigators have found that there are millions of guys who display what we see as "signs" in retrospect, but who never act out violently and who, at some point through some process, grow out of those signs and go on to live normal lives. This seems to be the result when any of our fearful stereotypes are studied.

 

[Chloegirl]

Aww

Does anyone find it odd that BK was in two CJ programs, and one recommended him to continue his studies in the other program…
And no red flags were noticed by the experts early enough to stop him from brutal murders?

If the experts do not notice the signs, and are not confident enough in their red flags, what makes us think anyone of us could recognize red flags that could be used to prevent?

What is the solution here then?
Did reports of young women at De Sales go unreported? Or not taken seriously?
Did other concerning issues at De Sales go unreported?

The hope of such CJ, criminal psychology, forensic psychology, profiling etc. is to catch a killer before they kill, before Grape, before a terrorist attack, before there are harmed victims.

So how are we doing?? It doesn’t sound like we are moving toward prevention.
It sounds like we still are reacting.

There was enough on BK to kick him out of his PhD program… but not to investigate… until there were four bodies.
BK was in WA around seven months before committing these murders.

I find that truth quite disturbing

IMO

My guess is that his behavior back in Pennsylvania near family, while objectionable was rather restrained. Psychologically, having gotten away from controls, I think he became much more free to do things his own way, escalating behaviors. maybe he returned to drugs, indulged in illegal activities, did not sleep further turning up the volume on his spin out.

What looked minor, now took over. Also, no offense to DeSales, but they are a sleepy little religious school. They knew him mostly online. WSU's criminology program attracts folks from all over the region, many of which live on what we call the west side -- Seattle. They are more affluent, aware, and of the world. Perhaps his demeanor was more accommodating to others before the success of graduation. Now, with things escalating, he was emboldened. JMOO

 

[AngTxGal]

yep, none of it surprises me
I'm sure there are dozens of stalking victims in his past that we'll never even hear about
if only he'd been caught then

If this is the case, that there may be dozens of stalking victims in the past…
And we just let that sit there like a known truth to be swallowed without reaction???
I find this disgusting, that some terrorized young women may not have been taken seriously.

Is this how it is? A guy can get by with just about anything- but we draw the line with murder?
If this is how we think, no wonder we have so many young women in dangerous situations.

Who are they going to tell- if no one is listening or doing anything about it?
Why would any bother to call 911? About a guy in the woods, peeping Tom, roofie at a bar, a guy too handsy at a club, stealing underwear, following you home or to your car…
We only have the reports that were made= what about all the reports that go unreported!!

Young girls seem completely unaware of the hateful twisted sick minds of such predators.
To the predators- college campuses, the bar scene, pretty much like shooting fish in a bucket

I find that infuriating
IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

Dr. Ramsland has said this many times: at this point no one can identify these killers or predict their future behavior. Our belief that we can, or that parents, teachers, and others can and should, is completely false. Nor do we know what interventions with these men would have changed their course. (BK's parents did try to get him help).

That is very very disturbing, I agree.

If this issue has been studied, I suspect investigators have found that there are millions of guys who display what we see as "signs" in retrospect, but who never act out violently and who, at some point through some process, grow out of those signs and go on to live normal lives. This seems to be the result when any of our fearful stereotypes are studied.

I think you’ve/ Ramsland has stated what is abundantly clear based on this situation.
I’m not talking about childhood red flags, I’m talking about weeks or months in advance of these murders.
He was sitting in class with these professors- they interacted with him and he with students for Aug, Sept, Oct and half of Nov.

When did the group of professors sit down and decide he would be dropped from funding?
What was that date? Was it prior to Nov 12?

So they did not want to be around him- but no investigation was prompted into crimes he may have already committed?

He was literally a case study walking among them. And they agreed they did not want him to be among them, but not that he was a danger to others?… hmm

I’m not seeking to blame, I’m digesting the reality of criminal profiling- it can be completely blind to a murderer sitting right in front of you.
Only after people are dead are such profiles helpful?

IMO

 

[Dotta]

He was literally a case study walking among them. And they agreed they did not want him to be among them, but not that he was already a danger… hmm

I’m not seeking to blame, I’m digesting the reality of criminal profiling- it can be completely blind to a murderer sitting right in front of you.
Only after people are dead are such profiles helpful?

IMO

But, mind you, books will be written now.

 

[MeadowMuffin]

Geez, I actually forget he was an addict.
Makes the comment about wondering why people drink all the more curious.

In his case, I'm thinking he wanted to try the experience of it - not thinking at all about how others would feel about him drinking a bottle, but wanting for HIMSELF to know what it was like. But, he's a herion addict, so yeah, that's odd.

Did he go straight to herion as a teenager and skip experimenting with alcohol? Was he wondering why people would drink when they could shoot up for a stronger experience?

jmo

I'm going to say IMO because I doubt I'd find the old link. But in HS he had asked a girl if she wanted to hang out with him, that he's "get a bottle". Well, the girl had a boyfriend and told him no. But when #163214 was arrested, she came forward with this.

Also, he did use weed before he began using heroin. The heroin use sounded as if it started because he wanted a different friend group.
My laptop's battery is on it's last legs and I can't copy/paste but the article is in the Independent, I googled marijuana,Casey Arntz, Kohberger.

And his friend Jack Baylis reported in the Nancy Grace video "I Am Blank" that he'd drink 3 beers, get wasted, they'd take his car keys and he'd get furious at them. He also said he'd use other "sketchy drugs." And it turns out it was Baylis' father whose coin collection and other things that were stolen by the inmate.

So he's no stranger to substance use/abuse.

 

[SMK777]

Re manipulating mentioned above

I don't see him this way.

People were creeped by him.
Students complained.
Professors wanted to get rid of him.
He didn't have any friends nor his own social circle.
He was a proverbial loner.

So what kind of manipulation are we talking about?

Manipulative people are usually charming and popular.
With wide social circle.
Surrounded by others
(who are not conscious of being manipulated).

He was alone.

His only meaningful contact is with Mother.
He doesn't need to manipulate her.
She loves him as mothers do.
And worries about him.
And tries to help him as best as she can.

JMO

Right, the manipulative type is usually like Ted Bundy; handsome, charming, popular, educated. Kohberger is a profile diametrically opposed to that, except for the education factor.

 

[AngTxGal]

Right, the manipulative type is usually like Ted Bundy; handsome, charming, popular, educated. Kohberger is a profile diametrically opposed to that, except for the education factor.

Hmm, it seems BK snowed a lot of educated adults just fine, just not his peers.

Most all of the young people who have described him- peers and neighbors and students he was awkward, rude, a bigot, lacking self awareness, disliked, avoided
He didn’t successfully date
He didn’t have a social group, friends

But Professors saw him as- bright, articulate, curious, thoughtful, intelligent, full of promise

Just maybe the young people in BKs life could see what adults could not?!
And then the facade slipped when he went to WA?

IMO

 

[xjd11]

I think you’ve/ Ramsland has stated what is abundantly clear based on this situation.
I’m not talking about childhood red flags, I’m talking about weeks or months in advance of these murders.
He was sitting in class with these professors- they interacted with him and he with students for Aug, Sept, Oct and half of Nov.

When did the group of professors sit down and decide he would be dropped from funding?
What was that date? Was it prior to Nov 12?

So they did not want to be around him- but no investigation was prompted into crimes he may have already committed?

He was literally a case study walking among them. And they agreed they did not want him to be among them, but not that he was a danger to others?… hmm

I’m not seeking to blame, I’m digesting the reality of criminal profiling- it can be completely blind to a murderer sitting right in front of you.
Only after people are dead are such profiles helpful?

IMO

Criminal profiling has come under scrutiny in recent years. I think it might go the way of handwriting analysis, polygraphs, toothmarks etc. what was once thought to be the definitive way to detect a criminal or guilt does not stand up to the test of time.

 

[Arkay]

De Sales' Dr Kathleen Ramsland is trial ballooning her plan to interview him and do a book on him, imo

I very much agree.

While we all want to know his motive, IMO this will never be forthcoming as I don’t expect him to tell the truth.

I see this plan of Dr. Ramsland’s to be mutually beneficial to only two people—- the professor and the murderer.

We’ve learned that his compulsion was to outtalk everyone in his orbit. Interviewing him will give him that opportunity to talk endlessly.

For her, she gets her name out there and perceivably profits from a book and book tours.

What use is any of it now? I know she isn’t clairvoyant, but I’ve already stated my opinion many times; in her area of expertise she did not pick up on any signals from him.

I grant that some interaction was online, I grant that De Sales is a small college, but unless she doses him with truth serum I don’t see the benefit for anyone but the doctor and the convict.

I’d much prefer for her to walk away rather than capitalize on her interactions with him, and let the world forget him.

All just my opinion.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hmm, it seems BK snowed a lot of educated adults just fine, just not his peers.

Most all of the young people who have described him- peers and neighbors and students he was awkward, rude, a bigot, lacking self awareness, disliked, avoided
He didn’t successfully date
He didn’t have a social group, friends

But Professors saw him as- bright, articulate, curious, thoughtful, intelligent, full of promise

Just maybe the young people in BKs life could see what adults could not?!
And then the facade slipped when he went to WA?

IMO

No, that's not the case at WSU.

All of the instances are in the documents which we've been looking at. There are scores of them. It wasn't just undergrads or peer students.
The link for the documents is on the previous page

 

[AngTxGal]

Criminal profiling has come under scrutiny in recent years. I think it might go the way of handwriting analysis, polygraphs, toothmarks etc. what was once thought to be the definitive way to detect a criminal or guilt does not stand up to the test of time.

I’m seeing that you could be right. And I understand that psychology is what is called a ‘soft’ science. But only recently have we been informed that the profs in the CJ program were seeing red flags, and there were issues, and many females had complained, and they were removing his funding and did not want him in their program.

What good are red flags if all of them are visible in hindsight??

Four families and two survivors don’t much care about the research and books that will be written to understand BK. They will wish he had been stopped before the brutal murders.

What is the lesson here, if any?
It seems clear that females should be encouraged to report, and that repeated reports on the same guy should result in investigation. Don’t just kick them out of school- file charges.
Isn’t stalking illegal?
Isn’t petty theft illegal?
Isn’t being a peeping Tom illegal?
Isn’t academic discrimination against a student based on their gender illegal?

All of these were crimes.
Were there any investigations into any of these in progress?

IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I very much agree.

While we all want to know his motive, IMO this will never be forthcoming as I don’t expect him to tell the truth.

I see this plan of Dr. Ramsland’s to be mutually beneficial to only two people—- the professor and the murderer.

We’ve learned that his compulsion was to outtalk everyone in his orbit. Interviewing him will give him that opportunity to talk endlessly.

For her, she gets her name out there and perceivably profits from a book and book tours.

What use is any of it now? I know she isn’t clairvoyant, but I’ve already stated my opinion many times; in her area of expertise she did not pick up on any signals from him.

I grant that some interaction was online, I grant that De Sales is a small college, but unless she doses him with truth serum I don’t see the benefit for anyone but the doctor and the convict.

I’d much prefer for her to walk away rather than capitalize on her interactions with him, and let the world forget him.

All just my opinion.

I was supportive of Ramsland having access to study BK until I realized there were Profs at WIU who saw and collected Red Flags from students and did nothing about it except chose not to allow him to continue in their program.

I supposed I had thought criminal profiling was more on the science end of psychology, with neuroscience than it is.

What about the young women who complained that prompted their decision?
They had all the red flags on the table… did they aid these women in getting justice?

When profiling remains an academic exercise… what good is it?
The young women that came forward were in the Criminal Justice program- surely their voices had weight. It looks like 15 or so came forward?

Geesh, ya think the guy may be unfit at the least and dangerous at the most?

IMO

 

[DizzyB]

I think you’ve/ Ramsland has stated what is abundantly clear based on this situation.
I’m not talking about childhood red flags, I’m talking about weeks or months in advance of these murders.
He was sitting in class with these professors- they interacted with him and he with students for Aug, Sept, Oct and half of Nov.

When did the group of professors sit down and decide he would be dropped from funding?
What was that date? Was it prior to Nov 12?

So they did not want to be around him- but no investigation was prompted into crimes he may have already committed?

He was literally a case study walking among them. And they agreed they did not want him to be among them, but not that he was a danger to others?… hmm

I’m not seeking to blame, I’m digesting the reality of criminal profiling- it can be completely blind to a murderer sitting right in front of you.
Only after people are dead are such profiles helpful?

IMO

I am kind of surprised that no one from WSU dropped a dime on the weird PHD candidate/TA who drove an Elantra and had issues specific to females. Also, did he “change” in some way once he moved to WA? So little background on him from people in PA, a couple of students and barely friends. We know so little about him, I expected more to come out.

Separately, I am watching a docuseries on The Yogurt Shop Murders, which occurred in 1991. Bob Ayers, Amy’s father, reminds me of SG in his relationship with the investigators of his daughter’s case. He wanted to know what they knew, and they couldn’t tell him. He is still waiting for his answers.

 

[AngTxGal]

No, that's not the case at WSU.

All of the instances are in the documents which we've been looking at. There are scores of them. It wasn't just undergrads or peer students.
The link for the documents is on the previous page

Agree, the way he presented himself changed when he arrived to WSU.

So in the six months he was there many red flags were coming up.
He was nearer to campus, had more interactions with peers and profs alike due to his TA position.

I see that, but none of those red flags to people in CJ helped Kaylee, Maddie, Xana, and Ethan

IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

I am kind of surprised that no one from WSU dropped a dime on the weird PHD candidate/TA who drove an Elantra and had issues specific to females. Also, did he “change” in some way once he moved to WA? So little background on him from people in PA, a couple of students and barely friends. We know so little about him, I expected more to come out.

Separately, I am watching a docuseries on The Yogurt Shop Murders, which occurred in 1991. Bob Ayers, Amy’s father, reminds me of SG in his relationship with the investigators of his daughter’s case. He wanted to know what they knew, and they couldn’t tell him. He is still waiting for his answers.

Yes, the Yogurt Shop Murders hits way too close to home for me.

Those poor families still cannot get anything resembling justice

IMO

 

[Tragg]

I think you’ve/ Ramsland has stated what is abundantly clear based on this situation.
I’m not talking about childhood red flags, I’m talking about weeks or months in advance of these murders.
He was sitting in class with these professors- they interacted with him and he with students for Aug, Sept, Oct and half of Nov.

When did the group of professors sit down and decide he would be dropped from funding?
What was that date? Was it prior to Nov 12?

So they did not want to be around him- but no investigation was prompted into crimes he may have already committed?

He was literally a case study walking among them. And they agreed they did not want him to be among them, but not that he was a danger to others?… hmm

I’m not seeking to blame, I’m digesting the reality of criminal profiling- it can be completely blind to a murderer sitting right in front of you.
Only after people are dead are such profiles helpful?

IMO

If you look at the CJ academic literature (or talk to a murder detective) you'll find that criminal profiling is still a non-science and that "profilers" mostly get it wrong. TV shows present it otherwise but they are fiction. Profiling is as useless after the fact as before.

Dr. Ramsland and others have demonstrated very well that NO ONE can predict the murderous violence of BK.

We are not entitled to see BK's academic records, but I suspect the information they relied on to decide BK could not continue in the program (at least as a teaching assistant) was about his lack of ability to relate to and communicate effectively with others, and the disruptive effect he had on the academic community of his peers. It would not have provided probable cause for a disciplinary inquiry, let alone a criminal investigation.

I am as desperate as you are for a means of detecting and protecting, but it just isn't there - even among CJ experts and professional pscychologists.

 

[AngTxGal]

If you look at the CJ academic literature (or talk to a murder detective) you'll find that criminal profiling is still a non-science and that "profilers" mostly get it wrong. TV shows present it otherwise but they are fiction. Profiling is as useless after the fact as before.

Dr. Ramsland and others have demonstrated very well that NO ONE can predict the murderous violence of BK.

We are not entitled to see BK's academic records, but I suspect the information they relied on to decide BK could not continue in the program (at least as a teaching assistant) was about his lack of ability to relate to and communicate effectively with others, and the disruptive effect he had on the academic community of his peers. It would not have provided probable cause for a disciplinary inquiry, let alone a criminal investigation.

I am as desperate as you are for a means of detecting and protecting, but it just isn't there - even among CJ experts and professional pscychologists.

Yes I am beginning to realize that now, and how disappointing!
Of course I see that the innocent don’t need to be profiled as if they are future killers, when they haven’t committed any crimes yet.

Are there signs that can be used as red flags- or No?

So, was there probable cause at any point to prompt an investigation?
- Maybe campus police reports filed against him by female students?
- Was he suspected of breaking into anyone’s apartment on campus? What about the female grad student who was his neighbor?

Academic study drives me nuts- the promotion of textbooks and such without tangible applicable results feels like useless mind exercises or commentary. If that is what it is- let’s just call it that.

When people want answers, info to keep young people safe, the last thing they need is academic theory and commentary.

Maybe we are left with informing young women of the dangers, how to stay safe, how to protect yourself?
And encouraging young women to file reports, speak up, say something if you see something.

The monsters don’t look like monsters and they are on our college campuses

IMO

 

[Dotta]

Re leaked video from cell.

Now,
when I think about it,
I remember deAngelo (Golden State killer) was also secretly filmed in his cell.
The video showed him jumping on furniture with agility,
while in Court he was sitting in a wheelchair with a confused face.

Maybe leaking such prison CCTV is some kind of tradition?

 

[Inthedetails]

I'm going to say IMO because I doubt I'd find the old link. But in HS he had asked a girl if she wanted to hang out with him, that he's "get a bottle". Well, the girl had a boyfriend and told him no. But when #163214 was arrested, she came forward with this.

Also, he did use weed before he began using heroin. The heroin use sounded as if it started because he wanted a different friend group.
My laptop's battery is on it's last legs and I can't copy/paste but the article is in the Independent, I googled marijuana,Casey Arntz, Kohberger.

And his friend Jack Baylis reported in the Nancy Grace video "I Am Blank" that he'd drink 3 beers, get wasted, they'd take his car keys and he'd get furious at them. He also said he'd use other "sketchy drugs." And it turns out it was Baylis' father whose coin collection and other things that were stolen by the inmate.

So he's no stranger to substance use/abuse.

Thank you for the comprehensive reply to my questions. Much appreciated! @MeadowMuffin