GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[girlhasnoname]

(Snipped by me)

Masking in social situations is a common human behavior, including among autistic individuals.

Contrary to stereotype, autistic individuals can lie (masking, after all, involves some deception):

Deceptive behaviour in autism: A scoping review

Also contrary to stereotype, most autistic individuals have plenty of affective/emotional empathy, though some may struggle with cognitive empathy. It is psychopaths who have no affective empathy.

Though rare, an individual can be both autistic and psychopathic:

The relationship between psychopathy and autism: a systematic review and narrative synthesis

IMO, incels who murder are likely to be both autistic and psychopathic. Such an individual might join an online forum with other individuals who hate women and are envious of romantically successful men, then their lack of affective empathy leads them to use violence to get even.

I imagine if an autistic individual had co-occurring psychopathy, they may be able to lie masterfully—with enough practice.

For what it’s worth, I think the murderer may simply be psychopathic and not be autistic, as Dr. Brocato implies.

I personally know many individuals with autistic traits, but none of these people have psychopathic traits—that I have witnessed, at least.

I also personally know only two individuals who I think are psychopathic. The first (a relative) shows no signs of autism and instead was often manic in his youth. The second (a former roommate) was socially awkward, but this awkwardness was due to his intensity, his need to control others, and his simmering anger that would suddenly erupt, appalling both co-workers and roommates. Like the murderer we discuss here, he was an excellent student, but unlike the murderer, he always had a girlfriend, in spite of his creepy vibe. (If a man is handsome enough, he usually has no problem finding a woman to put up with him.) Anyway, I periodically look up his name to see if he has moved away, or if he is in prison.

IMO

Yikes.

I thought this was interesting. Top Professionals with Psychopathic tendencies. Seems to be positions with control over people and attention seeking.

<snipped>

1. CEO
2. Lawyer
3. Media (Television/Radio)
4. Salesperson
5. Surgeon
6. Journalist
7. Police officer
8. Clergy person
9. Chef
10. Civil Servant

The Top 10 Jobs That Attract Psychopaths

Everyone I have ever worked with has, at some point, called another colleague or coworker "crazy." But does your job actually attract true psychopaths? In the book "The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success," Kevin Dutton explains that there are...

www.forbes.com

JMO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

In a case where the acoustics of the crime scene would have been vital at trial, how was this model supposed to provide a jury with valuable insight ?

It's just infuriating.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Talk about failure to launch.

Gets his own cellphone number at 28, and first time living on his own, he springs right into stalking 1122 King Road (I see no other way to interpret 23+ loops).

He didn't snap. He did what he probably always wanted to, now that no one was watching.

Why would LE want his phone number during a traffic stop?

No, wrong question, Felon.

Why don't YOU want to give it to the police?

Secretive.

Up to no good.

I wonder where he kept his kill kit. In his apartment? Under his seat? In the trunk?

He sure does love the small talk.

JMO

Remember the murderer was the Extemporaneous Speaking Champion in this Region. He loves to hear himself talk.

 

[girlhasnoname]

All of the traffic stop clips, back to back

Was he trying to talk himself out of a ticket for the lack of seatbelt?

He talked himself out of the October stop ticket- the woman cop who stopped him- by claiming there aren't any crosswalks in PA. Is that true, sounds unlikely but IDK

He can't help himself but to try and prove his vast knowledge and superiority.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

GUILTY - PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #113
@MeadowMuffin
I requested the voter roll from Whitman County, WA (public info!). He is registered at his apartment in Pullman. I say is because he’s still listed as active.

Good sleuthing there. I'm sure all that came when he registered his car plates from PA to WA 5 days after the murders, even a brand new WA license with Pullman address.

 

[girlhasnoname]

The Patterson book had a passage (no page number, sorry—I had to return the book to the library because there’s a long line of patrons eager to read it) that described how, in Ramsland’s class, one of the cases studied was Elliott Rodgers (incel loser who went on a rampage of violence against female college students in California). In this part of the book, Patterson pulls some quotes from Rodgers’ “manifesto”—including at least one that Patterson pointedly notes originally appeared on page 118. I may be misremembering so take this as IMO, but I thought it was where Rodgers talked about how he chose the date for his attack—it had to be a “regular” college party night, not a holiday (he considered Halloween but decided against it).

This section of Patterson’s book naturally comes before Kohberger’s apartment/car/parents’ home are raided and evidence seized, and he mentions one of the seized items was a book with a passage on p. 118 underlined. I interpreted this as Patterson’s way of telling the reader what that book was, without having to come right out and say that it was ER’s garbage…er, “manifesto.”

Yes, we debated between the ER 'manifesto' and The Handmaids Tale.

What did you think of Patterson's book? Curious as to how it played out.

 

[cottonweaver]

Remember the murderer was the Extemporaneous Speaking Champion in this Region. He loves to hear himself talk.

wow! First time I've heard that. It explains a lot.
Have also been stunned at how cocky, confident and manipulative he is - post interview arrest summary, new bodycam - because we've heard so often ' he's socially awkward' he is but we've never really heard him speak much or watched him interact. ( Apart from court & Indiana stops when he's under real duress)

BTW I heard a seasoned DP lawyer discuss the case on YT - Billy Little - and he said that a full psych assessment of BK will exist because it's standard for the Defense to commission one.
Levy had previously said that he's only been assessed for autism but Little said that isn't credible and that, understandably, she won't be releasing that.

ASPD or high on ' psychopathy' scores etc ( Both Drs Brucato and Grande have been suggesting that for months and that schizo affective also has crossover traits which can mimic autism, I posted it about 5 threads back but can't recall the full post details now)

 

[katydid23]

ER's manifesto wasn't originally printed in a book format.

Originally it was created as an electronic document that he either sent as an attachment or sent a url of it in an email.

California authorities knew of but didn't view Elliot Rodger's videos

Disclosure by Santa Barbara County sheriff's department corrected earlier assertion that deputies were unaware of any videos

www.theguardian.com

"One minute later, he emailed a lengthy written manifesto to his mother, father and therapist that also detailed his plans and contempt for everyone he felt was responsible for his sexual frustrations and overall miserable existence."

Even if years later it was printed in its entirety in book format for criminology students to use for study, the pg 118 in the original document likely wouldn't match up with page 118 in a printed book version--which would likely have acknowledgements, a forward, maybe even an introductory chapter and/or index before it even got to the manifesto. Differences in formatting between a typed electronic document and book copy would also cause the page numbers to be the same.

Patterson's book makes several stretches, if not leaps in assuming thing or creating assumptions in the readers, IMHO.

Sure, it's possible that by some coincidence on page 118 of one of BK's book there was something about ER....but I can guarantee the underlined passage could not and did not correspond to whatever was on page 118 of ER's original manifesto document.

Wait, I'm confused...

Does it matter at all what was written on pg 118 of the original manuscript?

I thought the point was that BK had underlined pg 118 of the book or manuscript, or whatever it was, that he was reading. That is important because he underlined something that he thought was important.

It doesn't matter at all what page number it would be in the original manuscript or another edition etc---IT ONLY MATTERS WHAT IS ON PG 118 OF THE BOOK IN HIS POSSESSION.

So we need to find out exactly what book or manuscript he had underlined, or find the original case notes which discussed the underlined pages.

IMO

 

[snooptroop88]

In a case where the acoustics of the crime scene would have been vital at trial, how was this model supposed to provide a jury with valuable insight ?

It's just infuriating.

(respectfully bolded by me)

AGREED!!

Useless. Ridiculous. Disrespectful. It looks like a Barbie toy.

People died in this house. Why did you tear it down before trial?? Were you already planning on taking a plea bargain??

 

[Mountain_Kat]

(respectfully bolded by me)

AGREED!!

Useless. Ridiculous. Disrespectful. It looks like a Barbie toy.

My issue isn't really with the accuracy or scale of the model, but as a juror, I would absolutely want a demonstration of the acoustics of the crime scene. This model, no matter how accurately it depicts the layout of the house, does nothing to help clarify what could and could not be heard from certain locations inside the house. I can guarantee you that Ann Taylor would have exploited that fact at trial.

 

[iamshadow21]

Great to see a house scaled to the size of Monsterberger's conscience.

But in all seriousness, I am creeped out by this little house. I mean, they tore the original down, so now they're making this Spinal Tap Stonehenge version of the house?? It looks like a little dollhouse, and under the circumstances, it gives me the creeps.

I still wish they'd left the real house intact., but this thing?? I hope someone develops a little miniature mobile crane and wrecking ball and takes this house out.

There's a wonderful, important history of making models like this, both as courtroom exhibits and as teaching tools in forensics.

Too often, we think of the history of crime and talk about men - Dr Joseph Bell, Charles Norris, etc.

When we look at models like that of the Moscow house, the history goes back to a woman, Frances Glessner Lee, and her Nutshell Studies that taught generations of law enforcement and criminalists how to investigate a crime scene.

While I am truly grateful that none of the surviving victims or families have to endure a trial, the forensics geek in me is disappointed that I won't get to see how the prosecution would have used and presented this at trial to the jury. It would have been crucial, IMO, to ensure the jury understood the locations and movements of the residents and the intruder through the home's complicated floorplan.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Wait, I'm confused...

Does it matter at all what was written on pg 118 of the original manuscript?

I thought the point was that BK had underlined pg 118 of the book or manuscript, or whatever it was, that he was reading. That is important because he underlined something that he thought was important.

It doesn't matter at all what page number it would be in the original manuscript or another edition etc---IT ONLY MATTERS WHAT IS ON PG 118 OF THE BOOK IN HIS POSSESSION.

So we need to find out exactly what book or manuscript he had underlined, or find the original case notes which discussed the underlined pages.

IMO

Agree, and evidently LE thought it had potential or substantial meaning, if not they wouldn't have seized it in the first place.

JMO

 

[snooptroop88]

There's a wonderful, important history of making models like this, both as courtroom exhibits and as teaching tools in forensics.

Too often, we think of the history of crime and talk about men - Dr Joseph Bell, Charles Norris, etc.

When we look at models like that of the Moscow house, the history goes back to a woman, Frances Glessner Lee, and her Nutshell Studies that taught generations of law enforcement and criminalists how to investigate a crime scene.

While I am truly grateful that none of the surviving victims or families have to endure a trial, the forensics geek in me is disappointed that I won't get to see how the prosecution would have used and presented this at trial to the jury. It would have been crucial, IMO, to ensure the jury understood the locations and movements of the residents and the intruder through the home's complicated floorplan.

MOO

Agreed, models are very nice-- in their place.

Unfortunately, though, the actual house would probably have been preferable. Not just for acoustics, necessarily, although that's clearly an area where the actualities won't carry over to a model. It's far preferable to have the actual house in many respects. If at some point this case had gone to trial and some juror had a question related to some particularity in the home, they could not have brought that juror TO the home since the home is gone. They could have shown this miniscule model or they could show 3D images or whatever they've retained. But it's not the real thing, is it?

This is one of the points I agree with SG on. I don't know why they tore this house down before trial, and I really do wonder if a plea bargain wasn't in the works for many months before we came to be aware of it. Monsterberger did sit there silently at his arraignment when they asked him for guilty or not guilty, that is so very long ago now.

Maybe he knew better than we did. I have no idea. But it looks to me like many parties may have known this would never reach trial, jmo.

 

[iamshadow21]

Agreed, models are very nice-- in their place.

Unfortunately, though, the actual house would probably have been preferable. Not just for acoustics, necessarily, although that's clearly an area where the actualities won't carry over to a model. It's far preferable to have the actual house in many respects. If at some point this case had gone to trial and some juror had a question related to some particularity in the home, they could not have brought that juror TO the home since the home is gone. They could have shown this miniscule model or they could show 3D images or whatever they've retained. But it's not the real thing, is it?

This is one of the points I agree with SG on. I don't know why they tore this house down before trial, and I really do wonder if a plea bargain wasn't in the works for many months before we came to be aware of it. Monsterberger did sit there silently at his arraignment when they asked him for guilty or not guilty, that is so very long ago now.

Maybe he knew better than we did. I have no idea. But it looks to me like many parties may have known this would never reach trial, jmo.

The number of cases where juries visit the actual crime scenes is vanishingly small. In reality, most crime scenes are released within hours, days at most, and are sanitised of the evidence of crime, either by cleaning and remodeling or by the extreme of demolition. In this case, the demolition was agreed upon after all items of evidentiary value were documented and recovered from the home. The house itself was toxic with biological materials from the homicides and chemicals from the crime scene processing. Jury members would have had to wear protective gear to enter, and the house itself was very changed from the night of the crime.

The only crime I can recall a jury actually visiting the scene in recent years was Murdaugh, which was an outdoor scene.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

Agreed, models are very nice-- in their place.

Unfortunately, though, the actual house would probably have been preferable. Not just for acoustics, necessarily, although that's clearly an area where the actualities won't carry over to a model. It's far preferable to have the actual house in many respects. If at some point this case had gone to trial and some juror had a question related to some particularity in the home, they could not have brought that juror TO the home since the home is gone. They could have shown this miniscule model or they could show 3D images or whatever they've retained. But it's not the real thing, is it?

This is one of the points I agree with SG on. I don't know why they tore this house down before trial, and I really do wonder if a plea bargain wasn't in the works for many months before we came to be aware of it. Monsterberger did sit there silently at his arraignment when they asked him for guilty or not guilty, that is so very long ago now.

Maybe he knew better than we did. I have no idea. But it looks to me like many parties may have known this would never reach trial, jmo.

I agree

Nothing can compare with visiting actual crime scene.

In fact, in many countries there are still reconstructions of crimes IN SITU during investigation to check all details.

I was horrified that the house was destroyed before the trial.

Why was there such a hurry to get rid of it???

JMO

 

[Stresserblick]

I agree

Nothing can compare with visiting actual crime scene.

In fact, in many countries there are still reconstructions of crimes IN SITU during investigation to check all details.

I was horrified that the house was destroyed before the trial.

Why was there such a hurry to get rid of it???

JMO

So that the students can return to a relatively normal daily routine and aren't reminded of the horrific act every time? Besides, it wouldn't have changed the verdict anyway. That guy will spend the rest of his life in prison

 

[Dotta]

So that the students can return to a relatively normal daily routine and aren't reminded of the horrific act every time?

Does it mean the victims/the crime will be forgotten now
because the house is no longer there?

 

[AngTxGal]

On the Pennsylvania webpage, Commonwealth v. Kohberger 682 MD 2022, none of the links for the search warrant returns for the murderer’s family home, car, and person are correct (the home link is for the person, the person link is for the car, and the car link is for the home):
…

Finally, Fixler said that none of the ID cards that were found in a glove in a box belonged to any of the victims. Instead, one of the cards belonged to a female security guard the murderer worked with at Pleasant Valley School District back in PA, and the other belonged to another woman whose identity was not revealed. Both women were surprised that the murderer had their ID cards.

Oh My!! I had no idea he had ID cards of females, and 10 of them!
To me that is huge in terms of state of mind!!
Surely all of the ten women whose IDs he had were contacted, no brainer there.

If that doesn’t put the C in Creep, I’m not sure what does.
So how did he get these IDs? Steal them from a person’s body, purse, backpack, car, apartment?
Makes my skin crawl!

IMO

 

[Stresserblick]

Does it mean the victims/the crime will be forgotten now
because the house is no longer there?

no one said that. But it also shouldnt serve as a memorial where everyone is constantly reminded of it and nobody would want to move in it anymore anyway.

I believe I remember that they put up a memorial on campus, which I find much better

 

[Warwick7]

Oh My!! I had no idea he had ID cards of females, and 10 of them!
To me that is huge in terms of state of mind!!
Surely all of the ten women whose IDs he had were contacted, no brainer there.

If that doesn’t put the C in Creep, I’m not sure what does.
So how did he get these IDs? Steal them from a person’s body, purse, backpack, car, apartment?
Makes my skin crawl!

IMO

Did I miss something? 10? I thought it was two?