TX - Five Yates children drowned, Houston, 20 June 2001 *Insanity*

[Earthbound Misfit I]

I place the blame on the doctors/insurance company for only treating her in a facility for so long because her insurance ran out for one.

I place some of the blame on the doctor who withdrew one of her meds & said all Andrea needed was to think happy thoughts shortly before her killing her children.

I blame the doctor who gave Andrea 3 TIMES more than the regular dose of another medication she was on.

I blame Rusty (her "LOVING" husband) for leaving Andrea alone with the children when she was so obviously mentally ill.

I do not blame Andrea for what happened while she was so deeply into her psychosis at that time. Andrea was mentally ill when she was placed into a facility an I don't think she should have been making the decisions. It was left up to good old Rusty and he was such a control freak that he wanted Andrea home taking care of the children...where he wanted her. HE wanted her barefoot and pregnant as much as possible and being that Andrea was mentally ill she didn't really know what she was thinking and did what Rusty wanted.

Some of Andrea's history. IMO somebody in this state should not be able to make decisions about her treatment options. Rusty was left in charge of that and he is an idiot!

Andrea’s First Suicide Attempt : On June 16 1999, Andrea called Rusty and begged him to come home. He found her shaking involuntarily and chewing on her fingers. The next day, she was hospitalized after she tried to commit suicide by taking an overdose of pills. She was transferred to the Methodist Hospital psychiatric unit and diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. The medical staff described Andrea as evasive in discussing her problems.

However, on June 24 she was prescribed an antidepressant and released.

Spiraling Downward: Once home, Andrea did not take the medication and as a result she began to self mutilate and refused to feed her children because she felt they were eating too much. She thought there were video cameras in the ceilings and said that the characters on television were talking to her and the children. She told Rusty about the hallucinations, yet neither of them informed Andrea's psychiatrist, Dr. Starbranch. On July 20, Andrea put a knife to her neck and begged her husband to let her die.

Warned About the Risks of Having More Babies : Andrea was again hospitalized and stayed in a catatonic state for 10 days. After being treated with an injection of different drugs that included Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug, her condition immediately improved. Rusty was optimistic about the drug therapy because Andrea appeared more like the person he first met. Dr. Starbranch warned the Yates that having another baby might bring on more episodes of psychotic behavior. Andrea was placed on out-patient care and prescribed Haldol.

New Hopes for the Future : Andrea's family urged Rusty to buy a home instead of returning Andrea to the cramped space of the bus. He purchased a nice home in a peaceful neighborhood. Once in her new home, Andrea's condition improved to the point that she returned to past activities like swimming, cooking and some socializing. She was also interacting well with her children. She expressed to Rusty that she had strong hopes for the future but still viewed her life on the bus as her failure.

The Tragic End: In March of 2000, Andrea, on Rusty's urging, became pregnant and stopped taking the Haldol. On November 30, 2000, Mary was born. Andrea was coping but on March 12, her father died and immediately her mental state digressed. She stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself, and would not feed Mary. She also frantically read the Bible.


By the end of March Andrea returned to a different hospital. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Mohammed Saeed, treated her briefly with Haldol but discontinued it, saying that she did not did not seem psychotic. Andrea was released only to return again in May. She was released in 10 days and in her last follow-up visit with Saeed, she was told to think positive thoughts and to see a psychologist.

Two days later, Rusty left for work and before his mother arrived to help, Andrea began to put into action the thoughts that had consumed her for two years. Andrea filled the tub with water and beginning with Paul, she systematically drowned the three youngest boys, then placed them on her bed and covered them. Mary was left floating in the tub. The last child alive was the first born, seven-year-old Noah. He asked his mother what was wrong with Mary, then turned and ran away. Andrea caught up with him and as he screamed, she dragged him and forced him into the tub next to Mary's floating body. He fought desperately, coming up for air twice, but Andrea held him down until he was dead. Leaving Noah in the tub, she brought Mary to the bed and laid her in the arms of her brothers.

Source:
http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm

She DID have treatment READILY available---doctors, psychiatrists, medication----what wasn't readily available to her??? She went to docs, got prescriptions, took medication, and was even temporarily placed. This wasn't someone who didn't have the resources to treat her problems and make her deal with her issues. She CHOSE not to continue utilizing those resources that were sooooo available to her---and five innocent babies suffered horrific deaths because of it.

 

[curious1]

IMO, Rusty Yates deserves to serve some time as well. He kept taking her out of treatment and encouraging her to go off the meds IIRC. He wanted the perfect wife and the perfect family. A wife on meds was not the perfect wife. I think their religion played a big part in it as well. I do know that happens. I knew somone who was on antidepression meds, but she went off of them because her husband and her church told her that depression was just the devil in her mind and that she only had to get right with God and push satan out of her mind and she would be cured. Luckily they were an older couple with no kids.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I think there's PLENTY of blame to go around here. You'd have to start with those adults who were in their right mind and go from there though.

 

[kcksum]

I think there's PLENTY of blame to go around here. You'd have to start with those adults who were in their right mind and go from there though.

I agree DP (wow we agree) Again, I never said she wasn't mentally ill. however, I think her decision to stop treatement for her illness and to have more children lends creadence that she should shoulder some responsibility.
I also feel those who are found guilty but insane or not guilty by reason of inanity should be housed in a hospital until they are lucid, but Once on meds and able to view reality, they should begin serving their sentance. Someone who is so drunk or high that they don't know what they are doing doesn't get to stay out of prison, neither should those who are in a mentally ill state.
She still killed 5 children. She should still have to serve her sentence. She should never be given the chance to be a parent again.
And we do put mentally ill people in prison all the time.Almost all criminals could be given a dsm 5 diagnosis.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree DP (wow we agree) Again, I never said she wasn't mentally ill. however, I think her decision to stop treatement for her illness and to have more children lends creadence that she should shoulder some responsibility.
I also feel those who are found guilty but insane or not guilty by reason of inanity should be housed in a hospital until they are lucid, but Once on meds and able to view reality, they should begin serving their sentance. Someone who is so drunk or high that they don't know what they are doing doesn't get to stay out of prison, neither should those who are in a mentally ill state.
She still killed 5 children. She should still have to serve her sentence. She should never be given the chance to be a parent again.
And we do put mentally ill people in prison all the time.Almost all criminals could be given a dsm 5 diagnosis.

I think that changing the wording of the laws is a good idea. But, the way the wording is now, it can't affect this case. Please don't think that I'm soft of the murderers of children. This is the only case I've ever been on this side of. I just think that she was so out of it that there could be no blame placed on her. Now, going back and trying to judge her years before is something that may be done, but what good would it do? If you find time, please try to read up on the Schlossberg case in Plano, Texas. This is another case where the so-called "church" they were members of played a HUGE part in the outcome.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

When I say I don't blame Andrea for what she did I do not mean she should not be put in a mental health facility and get medical treatment there.

I do mean that I dont think Andrea should be put in prison or tormented with visions of her dead children for the rest of her life.

I do believe Andrea deserves peace. I think she does punish herself enough for what she did. Andrea will never be normal again.

Also, again, I'd like to read any article that says she wants to have more children. Is there a link anyone or is it just hearsay?

 

[OneLostGrl]

*Sigh*

This is such a difficult thread, I try so hard not to read here because I know if I do I'm gonna respond and ArrGH I hate getting myself worked up over this! The people who feel Andrea had a choice in the matter have obviously never been Psychotic and could never understand what it means to be Psychotic.. when we "discuss" this stuff it goes nowhere and it never will!

Although I know that Andrea was/is insane, I also agree with others when they say she should be locked up for the rest of her life. I just disagree with where they think she should be housed.

I get the feeling that the people that think Andrea should be housed in a prison and not a mental hospital have never been in a mental institution. The way people are writing, it seems y'all think a mental hospital is a fun thing, something that does not offer punishment and rehabilitation.

I can assure you Andrea is not skipping down the halls, having fun, playing tennis etc. There is nothing fun about a nut house, people, N- O- T -H -I- N -G!!! People crying out all night, scared, angry, psychotic, manic, Homicidal, suicidal, delusional etc etc...

Locked wards, sometimes locked rooms.. without anything in the room but a mattress and a video camera that watches you 24-7. Every 15 minutes, all night long, someone enters your room, awakens you with a flashlight shining on your face announcing "Checks!"

Your neighbor just may be a serial killer or a rapist but guess what?! Unlike in prison, HIS bedroom door isn't locked!

Trust me, I'd rather go to prison than a nuthouse... a prison is safer, quieter and probably has better food and at least your murdering neighbor is locked in a cell!!

Andrea is being punished, Andrea is locked up, Andrea is serving her sentence.. with much more dangerous people than you'd ever find in a prison!

 

[poco]

The woman is crazier than a bed bug. My God doesn't punish people like that. You also don't know if she's remorseful or not since you never even spoken to her or anyone she knows. She was found NOT GUILTY by reason of insanity. Sorry if that bothers any of you, but she was tried in a court of law. If you disagree with it, do something to change the law instead of just biotching about it.

BINGO!!! The woman is wacked!!! Even that fact that she mentions that she wants more children shows you she is still lost out there. Like Jeana said, my God does not punish someone like her. What a horrible unfortunate event. What a poor lost soul this woman is.

It is almost impossible for a psychiatrist to pinpoint what is going on in someone's mind and try to treat them if the person seeking help is unable to convey exactly what is going on with them. And then we blindly believe that a simple dose of this medication or that medication will make it all better. Psychiatrists are not God's and I think they can only do so much, as can medication.

Kcksum, you made the following statement about her having made a decision to stop treatement for her illness and others have said this woman had CHOICES!!!! Give me a break! The woman is wacked, she cannot make decisions. Bad choices? The poor woman is a lunatic and totally incapable of making a rational "choice."

Do I believe she should be locked up for the rest of her life - heck yes. Do I believe she should go to "hell" for her behavior - heck no! Death would only be peace for that poor woman, as she has lived a life of HELL here on earth!

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.

 

[kcksum]

*Sigh*

This is such a difficult thread, I try so hard not to read here because I know if I do I'm gonna respond and ArrGH I hate getting myself worked up over this! The people who feel Andrea had a choice in the matter have obviously never been Psychotic and could never understand what it means to be Psychotic.. when we "discuss" this stuff it goes nowhere and it never will!

Although I know that Andrea was/is insane, I also agree with others when they say she should be locked up for the rest of her life. I just disagree with where they think she should be housed.

I get the feeling that the people that think Andrea should be housed in a prison and not a mental hospital have never been in a mental institution. The way people are writing, it seems y'all think a mental hospital is a fun thing, something that does not offer punishment and rehabilitation.

I can assure you Andrea is not skipping down the halls, having fun, playing tennis etc. There is nothing fun about a nut house, people, N- O- T -H -I- N -G!!! People crying out all night, scared, angry, psychotic, manic, Homicidal, suicidal, delusional etc etc...

Locked wards, sometimes locked rooms.. without anything in the room but a mattress and a video camera that watches you 24-7. Every 15 minutes, all night long, someone enters your room, awakens you with a flashlight shining on your face announcing "Checks!"

Your neighbor just may be a serial killer or a rapist but guess what?! Unlike in prison, HIS bedroom door isn't locked!

Trust me, I'd rather go to prison than a nuthouse... a prison is safer, quieter and probably has better food and at least your murdering neighbor is locked in a cell!!

Andrea is being punished, Andrea is locked up, Andrea is serving her sentence.. with much more dangerous people than you'd ever find in a prison!

I worked at a forensic facility and it was nothing like what you described above. The days of one flew over the cookoo's nest are over. These people have group time, recreation time, movie time, and can earn passes. They get a clothing allowance to go shopping with, and the food is much better than prison.
They have access to computers and a library as well as phone contact and weekly meetings with a therapist.
I would say hard time at a maximum security prison is much worse given that there are drug dealers, gang bangers, and murders committed inside the walls daily. There is also no therapy in most maxiumum security prisons.
Andrea has it better because she would probably have already been attacked many times by women in prison who felt she deserved it after drowning her babies.

 

[kcksum]

When I say I don't blame Andrea for what she did I do not mean she should not be put in a mental health facility and get medical treatment there.

I do mean that I dont think Andrea should be put in prison or tormented with visions of her dead children for the rest of her life.

I do believe Andrea deserves peace. I think she does punish herself enough for what she did. Andrea will never be normal again.

Also, again, I'd like to read any article that says she wants to have more children. Is there a link anyone or is it just hearsay?

It was not hearsay, and even her husband backed up those reports because she had not only told several women at the facility she wished to have another child, but she told Rusty she wished to have another child. I will look for a link, but it will be deeply archived as it was a couple of years ago.

 

[kcksum]

BINGO!!! The woman is wacked!!! Even that fact that she mentions that she wants more children shows you she is still lost out there. Like Jeana said, my God does not punish someone like her. What a horrible unfortunate event. What a poor lost soul this woman is.

It is almost impossible for a psychiatrist to pinpoint what is going on in someone's mind and try to treat them if the person seeking help is unable to convey exactly what is going on with them. And then we blindly believe that a simple dose of this medication or that medication will make it all better. Psychiatrists are not God's and I think they can only do so much, as can medication.

Kcksum, you made the following statement about her having made a decision to stop treatement for her illness and others have said this woman had CHOICES!!!! Give me a break! The woman is wacked, she cannot make decisions. Bad choices? The poor woman is a lunatic and totally incapable of making a rational "choice."

Do I believe she should be locked up for the rest of her life - heck yes. Do I believe she should go to "hell" for her behavior - heck no! Death would only be peace for that poor woman, as she has lived a life of HELL here on earth!

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.

Again, I have never stated I wanted her to go to hell. That is Gods decision.
I don't have to walk in anyones shoes to know what someone does is right or wrong. I wouldn't have to walk a mile in Ted Bundy's shoes to know he was a freaked out sadist who deserved the lethal injection he received years ago. I do not need to walk in Andrea's shoes to know she was psychotic before she had her 5th child. That should have been a signal that she shouldn't have had baby number 5 since baby number 4 made her a certafiable nut job. She had been put on medications that were improving her life greatly, and then got off of them to have another baby. That is where I fault Andrea (and her husband)She was lucid on meds and that is the testimony of several doctors and family members.Andrea was not always crazy, and was described as an excellant mother. To say medications don't return the mentally ill to lucid human beings capable of making choices is to say that there is no hope for the mentally ill. She is cpable of making choices now, and she has stated she would like to have another baby in that capable state. That speaks volumes to me about how much responsibility she takes for her actions.
I have worked with the mentally ill as a psychitric nurse years ago, and mentally ill adolescents. I am aware how crzy people are when they are psychotic. However, I have less sympathy for criminals who had treatment options and chose to come off of that treatment for selfish reasons(I want another baby, it makes me sleepy,it makes me gain weight) Mind you those all weren't andrea's excuses just different excuses used by people who willingly choose to come off their meds. I have more sympathy say fopr the little homeless guy who murders someone because he thinks they are russian spies. One had treatment options and chose not to use them, the other had none at all.
I hope I made sense there.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Ahhhh..if it was a couple years ago she was nowhere NEAR lucid. At times she still thought her children were alive and wondered why they didn't come to visit her (She asked her mother at times how the children were). Then there were times she realized that she had killed her children and she would not eat and was trying to starve herself and they had to forcefully give her IVs. That explains it all.

It was not hearsay, and even her husband backed up those reports because she had not only told several women at the facility she wished to have another child, but she told Rusty she wished to have another child. I will look for a link, but it will be deeply archived as it was a couple of years ago.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I worked at a forensic facility and it was nothing like what you described above. The days of one flew over the cookoo's nest are over. These people have group time, recreation time, movie time, and can earn passes. They get a clothing allowance to go shopping with, and the food is much better than prison.
They have access to computers and a library as well as phone contact and weekly meetings with a therapist.
I would say hard time at a maximum security prison is much worse given that there are drug dealers, gang bangers, and murders committed inside the walls daily. There is also no therapy in most maxiumum security prisons.
Andrea has it better because she would probably have already been attacked many times by women in prison who felt she deserved it after drowning her babies.

I have never worked in a locked Forensic Psychiatric hospital but my step father lived in one for 4 years after burning down a house with people still in it while Psychotic. As you say, "these people", do indeed have therapy-group and individual. They also are allowed recreation time and or TV time but are not allowed personal television sets in their rooms/cells. Prisoners (in prisons) are allowed their own TV in their cells.

Perhaps the hospital you worked at had good food, my step father lost about 60 lbs while commited because the food was nasty and he didn't eat much of it.

Non-violent patients on open units can earn passes, yes, but even for those non-violent people, a pass isn't earned very easily. Some prisons offer prisoners "weekend" jail time where non-violent offenders can stay for the weekend and go home during the week.

A locked unit is locked for a purpose- to keep people safe from hurting themselves and/or from hurting others. I'm sorry but I'm not buying what you say about patients on a locked ward being allowed to go out to the store shopping for clothes. I don't know where you worked but wow.. what a scary thing if they allowed people on a locked unit to head out into society on a shopping trip!!


Visits are supervised and visitors are separated from the patients by a glass barrier, and personal contact is not allowed. Barrier free time can be earned for non-violent offenders. Unlike in prison, visitors cannot bring or buy food from vending machines for a patient. Phone time is allowed but just like in prison they may only make collect calls and cannot receive direct calls.

As for Libraries, Prisons offer books and computers as well but neither place offers alone time in libraries or on computers. The Internet is not allowed in either place.

Sure prisons have murderers, rapists etc but Psych hospitals have Delusional, psychotic, and/or manic murderers and rapists! Like prison, Neither fellow patients nor doctors are "safe" from attacks in a hospital setting. Crazy people can and do make their own weapons which is why in locked units they are not allowed to have pens, mirrors, matches, scissors etc.

Prisons keep people with like crimes together on units and Prison also offers Solitary confinment where "high profile" prisoners are kept for their own saftey. I have no doubt if Andrea were in prison she'd be in Solitary and if I recall correctly, I think she was before her conviction was overturned.

You try to make it sound as if these people on locked units are allowed to roam freely and take nice shopping trips while on their way to grandmothers house for the weekend.

Now, if you were speaking of an open unit, I might be willing to believe the fairy tale you spelled out for us!

 

[Details]

I feel so sorry for her. When it comes to dying, and getting what you deserve, her husband is the one with something to fear, not her.

 

[kcksum]

I have never worked in a locked Forensic Psychiatric hospital but my step father lived in one for 4 years after burning down a house with people still in it while Psychotic. As you say, "these people", do indeed have therapy-group and individual. They also are allowed recreation time and or TV time but are not allowed personal television sets in their rooms/cells. Prisoners (in prisons) are allowed their own TV in their cells.

Perhaps the hospital you worked at had good food, my step father lost about 60 lbs while commited because the food was nasty and he didn't eat much of it.

Non-violent patients on open units can earn passes, yes, but even for those non-violent people, a pass isn't earned very easily. Some prisons offer prisoners "weekend" jail time where non-violent offenders can stay for the weekend and go home during the week.

A locked unit is locked for a purpose- to keep people safe from hurting themselves and/or from hurting others. I'm sorry but I'm not buying what you say about patients on a locked ward being allowed to go out to the store shopping for clothes. I don't know where you worked but wow.. what a scary thing if they allowed people on a locked unit to head out into society on a shopping trip!!


Visits are supervised and visitors are separated from the patients by a glass barrier, and personal contact is not allowed. Barrier free time can be earned for non-violent offenders. Unlike in prison, visitors cannot bring or buy food from vending machines for a patient. Phone time is allowed but just like in prison they may only make collect calls and cannot receive direct calls.

As for Libraries, Prisons offer books and computers as well but neither place offers alone time in libraries or on computers. The Internet is not allowed in either place.

Sure prisons have murderers, rapists etc but Psych hospitals have Delusional, psychotic, and/or manic murderers and rapists! Like prison, Neither fellow patients nor doctors are "safe" from attacks in a hospital setting. Crazy people can and do make their own weapons which is why in locked units they are not allowed to have pens, mirrors, matches, scissors etc.

Prisons keep people with like crimes together on units and Prison also offers Solitary confinment where "high profile" prisoners are kept for their own saftey. I have no doubt if Andrea were in prison she'd be in Solitary and if I recall correctly, I think she was before her conviction was overturned.

You try to make it sound as if these people on locked units are allowed to roam freely and take nice shopping trips while on their way to grandmothers house for the weekend.

Now, if you were speaking of an open unit, I might be willing to believe the fairy tale you spelled out for us!

What purpose would it serve for me to lie and "spell out a fairy tail for you"? You are a complete stranger who I could care less believes me, why would I waste my energy making something up? That was rude, drop the "I know everything cause I visited my stepdad in the hospital" attitude, and either take what I wrote and believe it or not.But, don't insinuate that what I wrote was fairy tails or somehow false or fabricated, it implies that you have no idea how to have a healthy debate. That anyone who doesn't agree with you is "lying" or making things up....that's immature. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Different states have different facility's and spend money on their mental health patients in different ways, maybe your step dad lived in a crappy state. The facility I worked in had both locked and un locked units.
If you don't think prisoners have internet access, you need to do a little research, some of them have whole web pages for crying out loud.Yes, some of Our forensic prisoners were taken on supervised shopping passes all the time. they had a state alloted clothing allowance and were able to buy and try on clothing. They had a two staff members with them at all times. They had to earn that priviledge.Sorry if you don't believe that.
My point was that a psych hospital is in ways better than prison,because it's supposed to be! Isn't the whole idea NOT TO SEND psychotic criminals to a place as bad as prison because they weren't "guilty" by reason of their insanity? The whole idea is that they need supervised THERAPY not punishment. They aren't responsible for their actions, so they get therapy and treatment and are watched and monitored because of their mental illness, not because they are serving time.
How long ago was your stepdad in that hospital? If it was before the mid 1990's I can understand, but in the early to mid 90's sweeping reforms went through the mental health communtiy and a whole lot of things were changed.

 

[kcksum]

Ahhhh..if it was a couple years ago she was nowhere NEAR lucid. At times she still thought her children were alive and wondered why they didn't come to visit her (She asked her mother at times how the children were). Then there were times she realized that she had killed her children and she would not eat and was trying to starve herself and they had to forcefully give her IVs. That explains it all.

still looking for a link. Maybe she was still coming in and out of a lucid state. Again, I have never said she wasn't mentally ill, I said she needs to shoulder some of the responsibility because she chose to come off of meds and she chose to have that 5th baby.
I do hope she is haunted by the faces of her dead children, because as long as she is haunted by them, she might not want to have anymore to drown in her psychotic mentally ill state.
I will have to say, if her move is a reflection that she is doing better and earned the right to be moved to a more transitional facility, than I promise she is no longer starving herself and getting IV's. That is indicative that she is responding well to therapy. I hope no one ever decides she is "Cured". She can decide to stop her meds again as quickly as she did before. I hope someone in control of her freedom remebers that. I don't want her burning in hell(not my call), I do however want her locked up and forced to make medication the rest of her life.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

I didn't say that Andrea was starving herself now. You said that Andrea said she wanted to have more children...that she said that a couple of years ago and I explained that I could see her saying that and that at that point she was no where NEAR being lucid.

I found this article that tells about her starving herself:


(6/18/06 - HOUSTON) - Andrea Yates often struggles with deep depression or hallucinations in the weeks around June 20, the date when she drowned her five children in their bathtub in 2001. During that period this year, Yates will be in court for her second murder trial.

Also on ABC13.com:
Send news tips | RSS | ABC13 E-lert | Info mentioned on air | Search abc13.comJurors, who will be selected beginning Thursday, will hear largely the same evidence as in Yates' first trial, but they also will hear about her psychotic episodes since her 2002 conviction, which was overturned on appeal, defense attorney George Parnham said.

In 2004, for example, Yates was hospitalized in July after starving herself for up to six weeks, losing about 30 pounds, according to the University of Texas Medical Branch Hospitals' discharge records. She believed she saw "babies yelling for help," the records show.

"We've got four years of mental health records to show she's still severely mentally ill," Parnham said.

Yates is again pleading innocent by reason of insanity. Parnham maintains that severe postpartum psychosis prevented her from knowing that it was wrong to drown her children, ages 6 months to 7 years.

Prosecutors, however, insist that Yates does not meet Texas' legal definition of insanity: not knowing at the time that one's actions are wrong. They plan to present the same evidence showing how Yates killed the children after her husband left for work and before her mother-in-law arrived to help, and how Yates called 911 to report the crime.

More at link: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=4283238

still looking for a link. Maybe she was still coming in and out of a lucid state. Again, I have never said she wasn't mentally ill, I said she needs to shoulder some of the responsibility because she chose to come off of meds and she chose to have that 5th baby.
I do hope she is haunted by the faces of her dead children, because as long as she is haunted by them, she might not want to have anymore to drown in her psychotic mentally ill state.
I will have to say, if her move is a reflection that she is doing better and earned the right to be moved to a more transitional facility, than I promise she is no longer starving herself and getting IV's. That is indicative that she is responding well to therapy. I hope no one ever decides she is "Cured". She can decide to stop her meds again as quickly as she did before. I hope someone in control of her freedom remebers that. I don't want her burning in hell(not my call), I do however want her locked up and forced to make medication the rest of her life.

 

[julianne]

Too bad they didn't let her starve herself to death. Yeah, I know she's been declared insane, but she sure had enough mental presence to make sure she was alone in the house with the kids, and that no other adult was present to save the kids from their evil witch mothers methodical plan to drown them all.

She's a piece of work. I have NO sympathy for her. The only sympathy I have is for those innocent babies seeing their mothers disgusting face as she held them under the water---even chasing down the oldest one as he tried to get away from her!

 

[Details]

Too bad they didn't let her starve herself to death. Yeah, I know she's been declared insane, but she sure had enough mental presence to make sure she was alone in the house with the kids, and that no other adult was present to save the kids from their evil witch mothers methodical plan to drown them all.

Sure - insane doesn't mean dumb. She knew what she had to do, and knew others would stop her. The insane bit doesn't come with being dumb or clueless about what other people think, the insane bit comes with thinking you are right.

Cutting a person's throat makes you a murderer - right? Or does it make you a surgeon? Only your intent, and what you think you are doing makes the difference, and in an insane brain, they don't know the difference.

 

[julianne]

Sure - insane doesn't mean dumb. She knew what she had to do, and knew others would stop her. The insane bit doesn't come with being dumb or clueless about what other people think, the insane bit comes with thinking you are right.

Cutting a person's throat makes you a murderer - right? Or does it make you a surgeon? Only your intent, and what you think you are doing makes the difference, and in an insane brain, they don't know the difference.

Hmmm....good post and good points, details. You're making me think.

OK, but if the insane bit comes with thinking you are right, then all criminals could declare insanity, right? The man who shoots the guy his wife is sleeping with believes he is doing what is right---is he insane? The dumb teenagers who think they are right to go beat on homeless people----are they insane? What's the difference and where does the line get drawn?? Is it only applicable to the most heinous of crimes?