TX - Five Yates children drowned, Houston, 20 June 2001 *Insanity*

[Nore]

then you infered wrong from reading my post. Never once did I say she wasn't mentally ill. It is obvious this woman was in a state of psychosis. A state that she had been in before and had been prescribed meds for that SHE chose to stop taking. SHE chose to stay married to a man that insited she remain pregnant and insisted she get off of her meds. Andrea Yates should have to shoulder some of the responsability here .....that's all I am saying.
I comented that she is now on meds and in a lucid state. It is in this lucid state of normalcy that Andrea has stated her wish to have another baby.....not in her psychotic state, in her well state. That to me says she has no remorse for the lives she has taken up to now.That she must not see herself as a bad mother, because she thinks she is "well" enough to take another crack at it. This is a woman who claims pregnancy in itself made her psychotic enough to drown her children, and now wants to have another pregnancy. That is like a serial killer claiming made him kill, and asking to have a stack of mags delivered to him.
I also never mentioned God's judgement. I talked about how I wanted her to be haunted by the faces of the children she chose to murder, and how I personally judge her. Don't confuse how I would judge her with they way God would judge her.I would never assume how God will choose to judge anyone, he's God, only he gets to make that call.
I also never was "Biotching" about the law. I think it sucks that anyone who kills five babies gets to eat three meals a day and enjoy living.....mentally ill or not......they are a menace to society, dangerous to society, and serve no purpose but to eat up tax dollars. I feel that way about all child murderers, regardless of their mental state. I also know that my opinion on that matter will never change any law in this country because most people don't feel that way.
I have no sympathy for Andrea yates, I have much sympathy for her children and those left behind who loved them. She chose to get off of her meds, she chose to keep having babies even though she knew having them put her in a mentally ill state. She made choices that led to the demise of five innocent children. Mentally ill or not, her choices are the biggest reason she is where she is today. For the record,I also think her husband should be charged as an accessory.

-----------------------

kcksum,I find it hard to believe she doesn't feel or I should say voice any remorse!! I agree with you. If there is any chance of her ever being released back into society she should be spayed. I realize this is not the proper word,I just think it is fitting.To my way of thinking Andrea should never be released.The meds. were stopped once and she'd do it again.My feelings on poor Rusty~he should be in a padded cell.Anyone who couldnt see her as insane is nuts himself.How on Gods Earth could he go off to work and leave her alone???

 

[Nore]

Andrea thought she saw "babies yelling for help". I call that flashbacks.

 

[julianne]

Andrea thought she saw "babies yelling for help". I call that flashbacks.

Good observation...I bet it was flashbacks, because we all know that her babies were indeed yelling for help when she drowned them.

 

[Details]

Hmmm....good post and good points, details. You're making me think.

OK, but if the insane bit comes with thinking you are right, then all criminals could declare insanity, right? The man who shoots the guy his wife is sleeping with believes he is doing what is right---is he insane? The dumb teenagers who think they are right to go beat on homeless people----are they insane? What's the difference and where does the line get drawn?? Is it only applicable to the most heinous of crimes?

Nope, insane is insane. If they are so far out that they don't understand right from wrong - you think shooting your wife is helping her, doing a good deed, doing the right thing, even if the police will hurt you for it - you're insane all right! If you're shoplifting, and doing it for an insane reason, it applies there. But we usually don't hear about those cases -they just get sent off to the psych ward.

But it's not just for a little tiny bit nuts, or so self-centered you don't care about your wife, so you don't figure shooting her is wrong, because she hurt you, and that's all you care about - you have to be truely insane, not just a little ethically challenged, deciding that someone hurting your feelings is fairly revenged by killing them - insane is completely topsy turvey - right is wrong, wrong is right. It's not something that happens without a trace. Andrea Yates is one of the very few. You see signs everywhere - her years of history, the way she had stopped taking care of herself, how her husband knew enough to know she couldn't be left alone with the children. It's not just a defense that is just picked out, it's something that can be seen showing through in someone's life.

I think we all like to think we have control over our thoughts and our actions. And to a large extent we do. But our brain chemistry can override that all, and just completely change who we are, what the world is to us. It's horrible and sad, and just not a choice, not something you can just be strong enough to fight. Andrea had many bad years, getting worse and worse, then just to push her over the edge, she was abruptly taken off of an anti-psychotic medication that you are NEVER, EVER supposed to be abruptly taken off of - it's the type of drug you should be slowly weaned from. Both on past history, her recent history, and that drug, all of them just show that she is plain insane.

 

[OneLostGrl]

What purpose would it serve for me to lie and "spell out a fairy tail for you"? You are a complete stranger who I could care less believes me, why would I waste my energy making something up? That was rude, drop the "I know everything cause I visited my stepdad in the hospital" attitude, and either take what I wrote and believe it or not.But, don't insinuate that what I wrote was fairy tails or somehow false or fabricated, it implies that you have no idea how to have a healthy debate. That anyone who doesn't agree with you is "lying" or making things up....that's immature. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Different states have different facility's and spend money on their mental health patients in different ways, maybe your step dad lived in a crappy state. The facility I worked in had both locked and un locked units.
If you don't think prisoners have internet access, you need to do a little research, some of them have whole web pages for crying out loud.Yes, some of Our forensic prisoners were taken on supervised shopping passes all the time. they had a state alloted clothing allowance and were able to buy and try on clothing. They had a two staff members with them at all times. They had to earn that priviledge.Sorry if you don't believe that.
My point was that a psych hospital is in ways better than prison,because it's supposed to be! Isn't the whole idea NOT TO SEND psychotic criminals to a place as bad as prison because they weren't "guilty" by reason of their insanity? The whole idea is that they need supervised THERAPY not punishment. They aren't responsible for their actions, so they get therapy and treatment and are watched and monitored because of their mental illness, not because they are serving time.
How long ago was your stepdad in that hospital? If it was before the mid 1990's I can understand, but in the early to mid 90's sweeping reforms went through the mental health communtiy and a whole lot of things were changed.

That's amusing...As if I'm proud to be mentally ill or proud to come from a family chock full of mental illness. The last thing I am is proud- it's kind of embarrassing to be honest. I wish a text book were the only education I had in mental illness.

I called you on your statements- therefore I'm immature and unable to debate in a healthy manner? I never called you a liar- I simply disagreed with you and offered my own fu$*ed up reality as the basis for MY truths! People that live in glass houses.. blah blah.

Do you honestly believe the "whole idea" of Forensic psych hospitals are to make things easier for criminals found not guilty by reason of insanity? I gotta tell ya, that's disconcerning! My guess would have been that during commitment the Psych team would identify and provide a successful transition to whatever level of care is appropriate for each individual.

Wow, I thought the "whole idea" was to lock these people up because they are dangerously, violently insane! Therapy and locked wards protect society from them while they are dangerous. While hospitalized they are being punished (as well as treated).. perhaps not the way you think they should be but the way the legal system decided it should be! But they are indeed "serving time".

The main concept is to be able to monitor and evaluate the patients mental status on a daily basis. To work on "getting them sane" so they could eventually be transfered to a Prison to continue paying for their crimes against society. The majority of them will continue their incarceration in prison with medication maintenance. Which is why there is an emphasis on developing skills that are aimed at maximizing their ability to adapt to living in prison!

Prisons do not offer the internet to inmates... what you may be thinking of is loved ones and others fighing the death penalty make web pages for prisoners and update it for them but they themselves do not have the Internet.


If your problem is with the law itself- why not work to change those laws? I hate nothing more than people blaming their bad behavior on mental illness and would love to see changes in the laws regarding insanity defenses. However, I do believe that there are a small amount of people who truly are insane and it'd be an injustice to *them* to ebolish the insanity defense.

*I* believe Andrea Yates was/is insane BUT I also believe she is choosing to remain insane. Her own lawyer said that every time they manage to get her sane her only reality is that she murdered her own babies. I can't say that I blame her- if I killed my children I wouldn't want to face it either!

I pray to God this woman never sees the light of day again. Not because I hate her but because she crossed a line- sane or not- and lost her right to live amoungst us!! Sure I feel bad for her, she's nuts, a fruit loop but I feel worse for her poor kids!

Every state has both maximum, medium and minimum security. The units I have been refering to are the locked ones (maximum security). The state my step father was hospitalized in is a state because they don't let dangerous mentally ill patients go out shopping in a store?? Seems to me he lived in a good state because they keep their dangerous patients on a locked ward!! Any state that locks up dangerous people, sane or insane, is doing something right as far as I'm concerned!

Locked units for the violently mentally ill are highly structured with 24 hour supervision. The job of the staff is to protect society while treating the illness.

I'd love to be able to discuss things and have a debate with you but this isn't one of those things... Yep, you went to school and have a degree and nope, I have no degree. I simply go by the truths that I have lived. You choose to see the things I have shared as an attitude when in fact they are the sad but true examples of mental illness and Psych hospitals that I have experienced. I don't know all because I and other members of my family have been hospitalized I just know some and figured others may like to hear my experience to get a better feel for what life in a maximum security state hospital.

I don't think your shoes would fit me and I'm sure mine wouldn't fit you but that doesn't give us the right to call each other names and put words in one anothers mouths :hand: (keyboards?! )

I hope you have a good Monday.

 

[kcksum]

That's amusing...As if I'm proud to be mentally ill or proud to come from a family chock full of mental illness. The last thing I am is proud- it's kind of embarrassing to be honest. I wish a text book were the only education I had in mental illness.

Not sure where all the hurt feelings are stemming from, you're the one who was bold enough to say that my version of a psych hospital was no more than a fairy tale. Fairy tales are false stories, so wether you meant it or not, you were implying that what i was saying was false and made up. Don't come on here trying to twist it around to say I am the one who called you a liar and wasn't interested in honest debate. You are the one who started the mud slinging, go back and re-read.
I am not sure where you inferred that because I have a degree I felt like I was better than you, I never even so much as implied that, you must have issues there. I believe everyone has input to any and all discussions, no matter what level of education they have. I believe when people assume they are the be all and know all that debates turns into ugly nasty arguments.I believe no one should ever assume anyone is lying or not telling the truth, I believe to say so, is to call for that person to defend themself. You inferred I was spewing fairy tales, I defended myself. Don't stir things up and then play the hurt feelings card. It just makes the debate nastier and less inviting.

 

[curious1]

OneLostGirl....I get your point. There are psych hospitals where you go if you have a nervous breakdown or you try to harm yourself. Then there are the ones where you get sent to if you, say set a building on fire with people inside, or drown your children because you think you are saving them. I get the difference in the two. I have been in the first myself for treatment and would NEVER want to go the the other one. There is a big difference in the two.

 

[lavonne]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.

 

[Nore]

Sure - insane doesn't mean dumb. She knew what she had to do, and knew others would stop her. The insane bit doesn't come with being dumb or clueless about what other people think, the insane bit comes with thinking you are right.

Cutting a person's throat makes you a murderer - right? Or does it make you a surgeon? Only your intent, and what you think you are doing makes the difference, and in an insane brain, they don't know the difference.

-------------------------

What I cant understand is the insane bit comes with thinking you are right,please, why did she call 911 and report a crime? If she were right wouldn't she think of it not as a crime but as something that needed to be done? Honestly I have tried to figure this out and cannot come up with an answer.The 911 bugs me.Take care.

 

[Details]

-------------------------

What I cant understand is the insane bit comes with thinking you are right,please, why did she call 911 and report a crime? If she were right wouldn't she think of it not as a crime but as something that needed to be done? Honestly I have tried to figure this out and cannot come up with an answer.The 911 bugs me.Take care.

Right and wrong don't always match to legal and illegal. She knew she was committing a crime - but also believed what she was doing was right. She thought she was a horrible, evil person, and a lousy mother - such a lousy mother that she was destroying her children, sending them to Hell - literally. But she could save them from Hell by sending them to Heaven - again literally. It's a crime, they don't want to go, but it's the best thing for the children.

 

[Details]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.

???? Did nothing? There's a - what was it - something like a 6-7 year history of doing all kinds of things. Doctors, meds, hospitals. Rusty was the sane one, he could see she was insane - you can't expect an insane person to make the reasoned choice. She went with his decisions, and with what her doctor decided.

If, she knew. I don't know how you are so sure of that - or that if she knew, that she could do something.

 

[curious1]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.

I am afraid it is not that simple. I can only speak about depression, but yes there is a time where you 'know', but there is so much stigma attached to it and if you reach out for help people will know and you will be judged. So it makes it hard. But I do think that if I were having thoughts of hurting my pets I would say 'whoa' screw what anybody thinks I need help and I need it now. So I cannot understand someone who has thoughts of hurting their children not realizing how serious it is.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.

Not legally, but you're right. She'll have to live with herself every day.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.

lavonne-

In my case,yes, absolutely there was a period where I knew I was loosing myself. I knew throughout my entire life that I wasn't "right" in the head but I especially knew after I gave birth to my son that I was worse than ever.

But between the mania's, the depression and the mixed states where I became Psychotic and heard voices- I went to doctors, I cried out for help and although it took quite some time for a diagnosis, in the mean time- I was put on some medications that made the illness seem *easy* to live with.

I was put on medications that seemed to make my stove move across the kitchen (Orap, Haldol) that made me feel as if I were crazy glued to my bed (Thorazine) or made my suicidal thoughts worse than before (Prozac). I too went off of the drugs that were far worse than my Bipolar itself.

But I didn't kill anyone, let alone my own children so obviously I can't begin to imagine how far gone Andrea was. But in my experience, there does come a time where you literally lose touch with reaity. It's a race against the clock, trying to find the right medications before that happens. Mental illness is a progressive illness. The longer it is left untreated the worse it gets.

Quite some time ago I did talk about there being a time where I know I could have hurt my son but I got out of the house and called someone to take my child from the house and then put myself in the hospital again. Having been sick and having gotten well, I know without a doubt in my mind that if it ever came down to hurting my child, I'd kill myself first. So, again, I do not know what Andrea went through, only what I went through therefore I can't speak for her.

I'm not here making excuses for Andrea Yates or anyone else with a mental illness, I'm just sharing what I lived through as perhaps a glimpse into half of what Andrea lived through. I too think she should be punished for the rest of her life I just think that punishment should take place in a maximum security hospital.

Prisons and the guards in them are not trained in handling severe mental illness and the unprovoked violence that can come with Psychosis... Many people that are Psychotic believe others are out to hurt *them*. I don't think Prison is equipped to handle the emotions and anger that are bound to come when a woman becomes sane enough to finally come to terms with the fact that she took the life of her children.

ETA: Thanks for your response to me earlier, curious1.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm just sharing what I lived through as perhaps a glimpse into half of what Andrea lived through.

Thank you for hanging in there on this thread and trying to help us understand a little bit about the medications and the cycle of mental illness. Its a tremendous help!!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you for hanging in there on this thread and trying to help us understand a little bit about the medications and the cycle of mental illness. Its a tremendous help!!

Thanks for gettin' what my intent is, Jeana.

I'm certainly not "proud" to be mentally ill but in order to ever end the stigma surrounding mental illness, people like me *must* speak up.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Thanks for gettin' what my intent is, Jeana.

I'm certainly not "proud" to be mentally ill but in order to ever end the stigma surrounding mental illness, people like me *must* speak up.

Absolutely!!! The stigma must be removed or more people and their families will suffer needlessly.

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Would a sane person who had just killed somebody call 911 and then wait patiently (drinking a diet coke while waiting) for the police to show up and then confess to killing her children and lead the police to the bodies?

Wouldn't it be normal for someone who had killed someone to try and hide the crime and run? Andrea thought it was time for her to be punished and that is why she called 911 and wanted the police to come. She thought they should take her and that the Texas Gov. George Bush (He was actually the president at the time but she thought he was still the Gov of Texas) should give her the death penalty and put her to death in order to get rid of the devil.

So while she knew it was a crime to kill her children she did it in order to save the children from the devil and eternal damnation.

-------------------------

What I cant understand is the insane bit comes with thinking you are right,please, why did she call 911 and report a crime? If she were right wouldn't she think of it not as a crime but as something that needed to be done? Honestly I have tried to figure this out and cannot come up with an answer.The 911 bugs me.Take care.

 

[OneLostGrl]

What purpose would it serve for me to lie and "spell out a fairy tail for you"? You are a complete stranger who I could care less believes me, why would I waste my energy making something up? That was rude, drop the "I know everything cause I visited my stepdad in the hospital" attitude, and either take what I wrote and believe it or not.But, don't insinuate that what I wrote was fairy tails or somehow false or fabricated, it implies that you have no idea how to have a healthy debate. That anyone who doesn't agree with you is "lying" or making things up....that's immature. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Different states have different facility's and spend money on their mental health patients in different ways, maybe your step dad lived in a crappy state. The facility I worked in had both locked and un locked units.
If you don't think prisoners have internet access, you need to do a little research, some of them have whole web pages for crying out loud.Yes, some of Our forensic prisoners were taken on supervised shopping passes all the time. they had a state alloted clothing allowance and were able to buy and try on clothing. They had a two staff members with them at all times. They had to earn that priviledge.Sorry if you don't believe that.
My point was that a psych hospital is in ways better than prison,because it's supposed to be! Isn't the whole idea NOT TO SEND psychotic criminals to a place as bad as prison because they weren't "guilty" by reason of their insanity? The whole idea is that they need supervised THERAPY not punishment. They aren't responsible for their actions, so they get therapy and treatment and are watched and monitored because of their mental illness, not because they are serving time.
How long ago was your stepdad in that hospital? If it was before the mid 1990's I can understand, but in the early to mid 90's sweeping reforms went through the mental health communtiy and a whole lot of things were changed.

Here is an interesting article I came across while reading things having to do with a different thread here and it made me think of this thread while reading it. So I'll put it here rather than over there to allow the others here to be able to decide for themselves what life in a state mental hospital can be like.

Although this was written in 2001 and is 6 years old or so, it is years past the 1990's "sweeping reforms" you were refering to..

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/07/22/MN122212.DTL

"Shortly after midnight on Christmas, Orrin Patrick, a 45-year-old mentally ill patient at Napa State Hospital, led a young orderly into the starkly lit dayroom on Unit T-7.

There, lying in a pool of blood on the speckled linoleum floor, was John Reed, 48, of Yuba City. He had been pummeled in the face and strangled.

To hospital employees and patients' rights advocates, Reed's slaying exposes a fundamental flaw in California's mental health system: Criminally inclined, often violent patients are now in the majority at state hospitals - and the hospitals are ill-equipped to handle them.

The problem has reached a critical stage at Napa State Hospital, which has a severe employee shortage and where staff members are given only rudimentary training on how to deal with criminal behavior. With more than 100 job vacancies at the hospital, the nursing staff has barely enough time to clothe, feed and medicate patients, let alone deal with violent outbursts.

"This particular death is the result of some serious long-term problems in providing care for people who have been committed to this hospital," said social worker Joan Bartos, who worked at Napa State Hospital until a year ago. "It's not a safe place for patients to be treated. It's also a very dangerous place for staff."

In the last four years, the once sleepy campus-style hospital has become a holding pen for men and woman incompetent to stand trial on criminal charges or found not guilty of crimes by reason of insanity. It is a dramatic shift from its founding purpose: Since 1875, the hospital had mainly served mentally ill patients committed by civil courts....."

Much more @ link. Yeah, like this is a nicer place than prison- no one here being punished or at risk of being murdered!

The world hasn't changed that much and people housed in these hospitals *are* indeed being punished and living in fear of other inmates just like in Prisons.. except in prison, the cells of violent, maximum security prisoners are locked- the doors in these places are not!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Here is another write up that talks about the insanity defense- for those who are interested...

"Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity: Ticket to freedom"-

"In popular fiction, whether it be literature or movies, you will often come across stories in which an offender is trying to get off scott-free for their crimes by pleading not guilty by reason of insanity (or mental defect). Usually it is considered a 'temporary' insanity in which they claim they are no longer aflicted by. Usually the court finds them not guilty and they are free to go.

"Reality, however, is not quite like fiction. First of all, the sure number of attempts at the insanity defense in fiction may cause the layman to believe that this is a common occurance. This is clearly not the case. An attempt to be found not guilty on this grounds is so rare that members of the criminal justice system could easily go their entire careers with out coming across a single case of this type.

A second non-reality factor is the 'temporary' insanity defense. Sure temporary break downs of ones mental health occure. However, a situation in which a person is driven by a completely unstopable rage is so unlikely that its occurance is nearly impossible. Even the most traumatized individuals tend to clearly know the difference between right and wrong..."

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/forensic_psychology/38753