TX - Five Yates children drowned, Houston, 20 June 2001 *Insanity*

[thefragile7393]

Thank you KimIi....very insightful post. After reading a book on the case, it provided me a lot of insight that the press just didn't get out in the mainstream, though of course I'm no expert, nor did I know either of them IRL. It's so easy to pass complete judgement on him when in reality, a lot of things and people failed Andrea. It's just an all-around sad sad case.

 

[twinkiesmom]

He just seems so different, so care free in his new life as if a burden (namely an unstable wife and all those kids) had been lifted from him. JMO please do not blast me. :truce:

I disagree with you...His new life is probably much easier, but to an ultra-conservative Christian man, those children were arrows in his quiver...his Christian legacy. I don't get the impression he was willing to take over their day-to-day care and education, but I don't see him as relieved to be rid of THEM.

I also get the impression he may be relieved of his own insanity going to a "normal" church instead of following that wacko.

 

[deanws]

...that's ANDREA, not ANDREW...in that last sentence in my above post.

I know the treating doctor and I do not believe him to be the cause. I also know some private details and that Rusty lives in a macho fantasy world. What he writes to you does not necessarily reflect the true facts but rather the "facts" according to "his" perception of the "Rusty way of thinking." There is sooo much more to this case than what meets the eye...and I am not going by strictly details released in the press.

 

[booradley]

deanws: I am so intrigued by the insights you have into this case. You and several others from tx have really opened my eyes to the details of this tragedy. Would you share why you feel the doctor had no liability. To be clear, I do not feel that the Doctor is to blame, just curious to know what you know Thanks so much for taking the time to share with us.

 

[CarpeDiem]

I know the treating doctor and I do not believe him to be the cause.

You know Dr. Saaed? Ask him how many patients spouses beg for help to the point of insisting on a meeting in a parking lot. That happened with the Yates and him mere nights before the murders.

 

[Texana]

I couldn't agree more with deanws.

Rusty has more issues than Andrea ever had, only she was the one who broke physically and mentally.

 

[deanws]

deanws: I am so intrigued by the insights you have into this case. You and several others from tx have really opened my eyes to the details of this tragedy. Would you share why you feel the doctor had no liability. To be clear, I do not feel that the Doctor is to blame, just curious to know what you know Thanks so much for taking the time to share with us.

I know to what extent Rusty was counseled about Andrea NOT becoming pregnant again. When pregnant, she could not take the required dosages needed to keep her mental illness in check(if that was a possibility). Also, he was counseled about things that needed to be present in Andrea's life to help her become a more stable person. It was recommended that she not home school, and break ties with their religious affiliation. Rusty needed to assume more of the household responsibilities and she was to be closely monitored for deeper signs of depression. He kept on her to get pregnant again. He KNEW this was NOT going to be easy on her, yet he thought she could "handle" it. He does not live in the real world. He thinks that women have a certain "responsibility" to do their "women" work. He is a real prize. Now, this is all from an outside source, and I DO NOT personally know Rusty nor Andrea, but have privy to information directly related to the case that is trustworthy. Also, she was to be watched and helped. His mother was to be there in the mornings before Rusty left for work. She was running late. He left before she arrived. The children died.

 

[jilly]

I know to what extent Rusty was counseled about Andrea NOT becoming pregnant again. When pregnant, she could not take the required dosages needed to keep her mental illness in check(if that was a possibility). Also, he was counseled about things that needed to be present in Andrea's life to help her become a more stable person. It was recommended that she not home school, and break ties with their religious affiliation. Rusty needed to assume more of the household responsibilities and she was to be closely monitored for deeper signs of depression. He kept on her to get pregnant again. He KNEW this was NOT going to be easy on her, yet he thought she could "handle" it. He does not live in the real world. He thinks that women have a certain "responsibility" to do their "women" work. He is a real prize. Now, this is all from an outside source, and I DO NOT personally know Rusty nor Andrea, but have privy to information directly related to the case that is trustworthy. Also, she was to be watched and helped. His mother was to be there in the mornings before Rusty left for work. She was running late. He left before she arrived. The children died.

Thanks for posting this Deans! I followed the case a little way back when but I just couldn't read the book or get too much into it. Way too disturbing for me. Couldn't get those children's faces out of my mind.

Do you know how Rusty's mother is now? She must have had a terrible time afterwards. I know I would have if I were her thinking if only I had been there on time!

 

[deanws]

Thanks for posting this Deans! I followed the case a little way back when but I just couldn't read the book or get too much into it. Way too disturbing for me. Couldn't get those children's faces out of my mind.

Do you know how Rusty's mother is now? She must have had a terrible time afterwards. I know I would have if I were her thinking if only I had been there on time!

No, I don't know how she is doing now. I can't forget the home movies I watched. Those kids were beautiful. Some people think Andrea should burn in hell for her actions. I would tend to agree if I didn't know some of the inside information. She is truly mentally ill and I think she is where she belongs...in a mental hospital ward, not in a traditional prison.

 

[txsvicki]

One post says that Andreas insanity began to surface with the Luke, the 4th child while living in a bus. Did Andrea not have mental health problems at all before then? I can see a small family living in trailer for awhile if they want to save and pay cash for a home and be debt free. But, not if it cause mental health problems.

 

[chiperoni]

I have been to his website he has for the kids and Andrea's case a couple times, it's very sad, all the pics of the beautiful children they had and then to know the horror of their deaths. It was absolutely heart breaking what happened to this family. I do think people are much more aware of Post Partum Depression and Psychosis because of this case, and what can happen if proper treatment isn't given.

www.yateskids.org


http://www.yatescase.org/

I agree with you CD. Post partum Depression/Psychosis is very tragic and has led to infanticide and maternal suicide. Intervention is imperative and more medical research is needed.

 

[Texana]

One post says that Andreas insanity began to surface with the Luke, the 4th child while living in a bus. Did Andrea not have mental health problems at all before then? I can see a small family living in trailer for awhile if they want to save and pay cash for a home and be debt free. But, not if it cause mental health problems.

She actually had her first severe episode after the birth of their first son. She got better with medication, but they were told that with the severity of her episode, she would likely have it again and worse after another child. So Rusty knew that having more babies would put her mental health at risk, but he kept on anyway.

The bus experience was some idea they had to be kind of free and travel around the country homeschooling.

Rusty is a NASA engineer, financially (other than having to buy a lot of groceries and diapers) they would have had no problem buying a house and a much nicer one even than the one he did get after the bus experience.

 

[deanws]

She actually had her first severe episode after the birth of their first son. She got better with medication, but they were told that with the severity of her episode, she would likely have it again and worse after another child. So Rusty knew that having more babies would put her mental health at risk, but he kept on anyway.

The bus experience was some idea they had to be kind of free and travel around the country homeschooling.

Rusty is a NASA engineer, financially (other than having to buy a lot of groceries and diapers) they would have had no problem buying a house and a much nicer one even than the one he did get after the bus experience.

You are correct about the episode after the first child. She already had a disposition to be depressed that showed up in her later teen years. No, the RV was obtained with the travel aspect in mind. Then, after the RV he got the old freaking converted bus and moved them into that! When they were considering the last baby Mary, he was given stern warnings that this could be a potential lethal situation for Andrea. I guess that didn't matter to Rusty...because he decided she could "handle" it.

 

[deanws]

I agree with you CD. Post partum Depression/Psychosis is very tragic and has led to infanticide and maternal suicide. Intervention is imperative and more medical research is needed.

I believe this case so shocked this part of the country, more women were seeking help, and more doctors were taking this illness much more seriously than before IMO. However, what a sad way for this to illness to gain public attention. I can't imagine the horror of their last few minutes on this earth were like.

 

[FlowerChild]

Rusty Yates is NOT the only man who followed a religious conviction (and a spiritual "leader") all the way to the death of his children - there have been others..IN TEXAS. The mother who cut he infant's arms off was another. Post Partum Psychosis creates a fertile field for such extreme religious teachings. Andrea was sick long before she drowned he children to "save their souls" because of her belief she had "failed" as a mother and condemned her innocent children to hell. The psychosis is the reason these mothers kill, but the religious element plays a part as well.

Rusty Yates believed in having as many children 'as God gave them" DESPITE compelling evidence that with each child, Andrea got sicker and more divorced from reality. She could NOT take her anti psychotic medications while pregnant and breast feeding - and Andrea was pregnant MOST of the time...and caring 24/7 for a growing household with multiple children close in age - including home-schooling them...in a BUS for many years. Rusty CHOSE to impregnate his "obedient" wife over and over and over when he KNEW that she was NOT functioning and that she SHOULD NOT continue to get pregnant. He has full responsibility for THAT - and for the lifestyle they lived and the type of religion they followed - those were RUSTY'S CHOICES - Andrea was clearly sick, overtly suicidal, in a deep depression often, and sadly, also ever the obedient wife to her overbearing husband. I don't think Andrea was strong enough or healthy enough to change the path RUSTY set her on. And that is HIS FAULT.

RUSTY YATES WAS THE HEALTHY, FULLY FUNCTIONING SANE ONE AND HE KNEW HIS WIFE WAS SICK...VERY SICK. He has a responsibility to protect his children AND ANDREA from her illness. He failed in that responsibility and he cannot ever be fully absolved of that failure.

I cannot IMAGINE any woman knowing Rusty Yates and wanting to be married to him...much less HAVING CHILDREN WITH HIM. IMO there is something very flawed in Rusty Yates - but , then again, there are women who marry convicted serial killers in prison so the world is filled with people I cannot understand. It's too bad Andrea will never be able to regain any joy or happiness in HER life, while Rusty merrily continues with his life as if Andrea and their 5 children were an unfortunate chapter in someone else's life. It remains to be seen, but I kinda look to see wife #2 having a new baby every 18-24 months...until Rusty's "quiver is full" once again. I am not sure Rusty suddenly gave up 100% of his former beliefs - I think he just "delayed" expressing them until he could find another woman willing to share his interpretation of "faith". The story hasn't changed, just the players in it....how fortunate for Rusty that his new version of God is a forgiving one, unlike the one Andrea had forced upon her........

My Opinion

 

[deanws]

Rusty Yates is NOT the only man who followed a religious conviction (and a spiritual "leader") all the way to the death of his children - there have been others..IN TEXAS. The mother who cut he infant's arms off was another. Post Partum Psychosis creates a fertile field for such extreme religious teachings. Andrea was sick long before she drowned he children to "save their souls" because of her belief she had "failed" as a mother and condemned her innocent children to hell. The psychosis is the reason these mothers kill, but the religious element plays a part as well.

Rusty Yates believed in having as many children 'as God gave them" DESPITE compelling evidence that with each child, Andrea got sicker and more divorced from reality. She could NOT take her anti psychotic medications while pregnant and breast feeding - and Andrea was pregnant MOST of the time...and caring 24/7 for a growing household with multiple children close in age - including home-schooling them...in a BUS for many years. Rusty CHOSE to impregnate his "obedient" wife over and over and over when he KNEW that she was NOT functioning and that she SHOULD NOT continue to get pregnant. He has full responsibility for THAT - and for the lifestyle they lived and the type of religion they followed - those were RUSTY'S CHOICES - Andrea was clearly sick, overtly suicidal, in a deep depression often, and sadly, also ever the obedient wife to her overbearing husband. I don't think Andrea was strong enough or healthy enough to change the path RUSTY set her on. And that is HIS FAULT.

RUSTY YATES WAS THE HEALTHY, FULLY FUNCTIONING SANE ONE AND HE KNEW HIS WIFE WAS SICK...VERY SICK. He has a responsibility to protect his children AND ANDREA from her illness. He failed in that responsibility and he cannot ever be fully absolved of that failure.

I cannot IMAGINE any woman knowing Rusty Yates and wanting to be married to him...much less HAVING CHILDREN WITH HIM. IMO there is something very flawed in Rusty Yates - but , then again, there are women who marry convicted serial killers in prison so the world is filled with people I cannot understand. It's too bad Andrea will never be able to regain any joy or happiness in HER life, while Rusty merrily continues with his life as if Andrea and their 5 children were an unfortunate chapter in someone else's life. It remains to be seen, but I kinda look to see wife #2 having a new baby every 18-24 months...until Rusty's "quiver is full" once again. I am not sure Rusty suddenly gave up 100% of his former beliefs - I think he just "delayed" expressing them until he could find another woman willing to share his interpretation of "faith". The story hasn't changed, just the players in it....how fortunate for Rusty that his new version of God is a forgiving one, unlike the one Andrea had forced upon her........

My Opinion

As usual FC, I applaud your post.:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[jilly]

Yes - Excellent post FlowerChild!:clap:
This thread is stirring all my emotions again.

 

[JanPat]

deanws
I know the treating doctor and I do not believe him to be the cause.

I have to agree with you on this one, dean. Dr. Saeed was my daughter's doctor for a year and a half and one of the few I ever felt who really "got" her. Her primary diagnosis is pediatric bipolar with ADHD--there are a few other disorders & anxieties thrown in too. :crazy: We've since changed Dr.'s but NOT because we were unhappy with Saeed's treatment. Our only complaint about Saeed was how he managed his practice--VERY long wait times, even with an appointment, insurance billing errors, etc. However, those problems couldn't undermine the fact that I felt she got superior care from Saeed.

Between Saeed and our current Dr., she's seen 7 different psychiatrists on either an inpatient or outpatient basis. They all focused on medication management without ever really getting to know who my daughter was as a person. Both Saeed and our current Dr "know" her and work with other Dr's/therapists/family/school to make sure everyone is on the same page and treating the whole person. Mental illness is so all-encompassing and individualized that you can't just isolate and treat individual syptoms like the textbook tells you to. You have to look at everything and find a balance that works for that individual.

 

[deanws]

I have to agree with you on this one, dean. Dr. Saeed was my daughter's doctor for a year and a half and one of the few I ever felt who really "got" her. Her primary diagnosis is pediatric bipolar with ADHD--there are a few other disorders & anxieties thrown in too. :crazy: We've since changed Dr.'s but NOT because we were unhappy with Saeed's treatment. Our only complaint about Saeed was how he managed his practice--VERY long wait times, even with an appointment, insurance billing errors, etc. However, those problems couldn't undermine the fact that I felt she got superior care from Saeed.

Between Saeed and our current Dr., she's seen 7 different psychiatrists on either an inpatient or outpatient basis. They all focused on medication management without ever really getting to know who my daughter was as a person. Both Saeed and our current Dr "know" her and work with other Dr's/therapists/family/school to make sure everyone is on the same page and treating the whole person. Mental illness is so all-encompassing and individualized that you can't just isolate and treat individual syptoms like the textbook tells you to. You have to look at everything and find a balance that works for that individual.

I am glad your daughter is better.:blowkiss: We must live very close to each other.

 

[twinkiesmom]

It remains to be seen, but I kinda look to see wife #2 having a new baby every 18-24 months...until Rusty's "quiver is full" once again.

My Opinion

Since his new wife is over 40, it is unlikely she will be able to fill his quiver. But I agree with your post in general.