GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[jackal67]

Just how contrast works in many minds...
Wearing my rational hat, I'm not sure the rape conviction from almost 40 years ago says much either way about the strength of the crown's case in the current trial when they aren't alleging violence.

But he cannot be guilty and she not guilty of the same crimes how does that work then?

 

[CaptainNancy]

I got the opposite impression - it may win sympathy for her.

Yes, it could go either way I suppose. But she has consistently spoken in court in positive terms about their relationship, and seems to have demonstrated that she prioritised her relationship with him over keeping her children. My speculation but I presume that after the mother and baby foster placement and after the 2017 assault, SS would have liked to have seen her separate from MG.

People commonly misunderstand the difficulty emotionally abused and coerced women have in leaving men, but CM had resources (money) that many abused women do not, and has shown herself to be feisty, bold, spirited and resourceful. All the time showing loyalty to MG.

Being kept apart since their arrest was surely an opportunity, if she needed one, to disclose coercion.

So, not sure.

 

[jackal67]

Just how contrast works in many minds...

Wearing my rational hat, I'm not sure the rape conviction from almost 40 years ago says much either way about the strength of the crown's case in the current trial when they aren't alleging any violence.



It could win her sympathy not in connection with her relationship with her parents but in her relationship with MG. They might think she's totally besotted, he's bewitched her somehow, all she's guilty of is being a stupid idiot, that kind of thing.

She was a grown woman, well educated intelligent and privileged not some poor easily led teenager.
She hasnt helped herself by refusing to answer the prosecutions questions. Gets no sympathy from me

 

[Lucy6226]

I bet they've been waiting for MG to lay it on thick about what a good guy he is, shame they both refused to give further evidence, they could have bit back.... unsuccessfully imo.

 

[Yellowbelly]

Details of cash withdrawals from Marten’s bank accounts from December 2022 to February 2023 were also revealed to the jury.

Presumably, this is to show that CM had the resources at the time to be living with a roof over her head, rather than in a tent on the South Downs.

 

[jackal67]

I got the opposite impression - it may win sympathy for her.

Yes, it could go either way I suppose. But she has consistently spoken in court in positive terms about their relationship, and seems to have demonstrated that she prioritised her relationship with him over keeping her children. My speculation but I presume that after the mother and baby foster placement and after the 2017 assault, SS would have liked to have seen her separate from MG.

People commonly misunderstand the difficulty emotionally abused and coerced women have in leaving men, but CM had resources (money) that many abused women do not, and has shown herself to be feisty, bold, spirited and resourceful. All the time showing loyalty to MG.

Being kept apart since their arrest was surely an opportunity, if she needed one, to disclose coercion.

So, not sure.

IMO the separation has only strengthened their bond. She has burned her bridges

 

[Maltesepuppy]

What would you have expected to see in a case of parents moving under the radar with their child so as to keep her, out of love, that you know not to have been present in this case, let's say after the car caught fire on the M61?

Are you using the word "spite" in the normal sense of wishing to cause annoyance or hurt to another person?

On another point...

AFAIAA it's not clear what exactly MG said in the witness box that caused the judge to allow the Welsh hospital event and subsequent assault conviction to be admissible in evidence against him. We can guess that it was probably something along the lines of butter wouldn't melt in his mouth, but I would like to know what exactly it was...

Why? Because if it was "I'm never violent", then maybe the rape conviction from the 1980s will be ruled admissible too. And if he has any record whatsoever of violence towards children, or neglect causing them suffering, and it's admissible, that is the end of his defence IMO - at least on the charge of causing or allowing death, maybe not manslaughter - although the same might not apply to CM's defence. But perhaps he only said "I wouldn't assault a police officer".... It's unclear what exactly the crown were seeking to rebut.

Perhaps since the rape conviction almost 40 years ago his only record for violence was the Welsh incident?

Everyone who doesn't know and who is interested is going to be speculating IMO.

I hope he returns to the witness box.

I would have expected said parents to have no need to be under the radar, which they wouldn't have needed to be if they had put their children's needs first.
With the first baby I would have expected them not to be in a tent
With subsequent children I would have expected them to have utilised the support and guidance given by SS and not to come under the radar again.
With all 4 first children I would have expected to not engage in domestic abuse which is deeply traumatising for them.
With all 4 children I would have expected them to attend contact sessions to show they were serious about getting them back, instead of complaining about being caught in camera.
With Victoria I would have expected them to have medical intervention before and after birth because she could have been born with a medical condition which needed treatment.
With Victoria I wouldn't have expected to go on the run when she was about to be born.
With Victoria I would have expected them to put her needs first and not to expose her to freezing and stressful conditions.
With Victoria I would have expected them to treat her body with respect, instead of leaving it to literally rot covered in rubbish.
After the car fire it should have been clear to anyone that this was a hopeless situation. I would have expected them to grow the hell up and hand themselves in so that Victoria basic needs were taken care of.
JMO MOO

 

[Maltesepuppy]

What would you have expected to see in a case of parents moving under the radar with their child so as to keep her, out of love, that you know not to have been present in this case, let's say after the car caught fire on the M61?

Are you using the word "spite" in the normal sense of wishing to cause annoyance or hurt to another person?

On another point...

AFAIAA it's not clear what exactly MG said in the witness box that caused the judge to allow the Welsh hospital event and subsequent assault conviction to be admissible in evidence against him. We can guess that it was probably something along the lines of butter wouldn't melt in his mouth, but I would like to know what exactly it was...

Why? Because if it was "I'm never violent", then maybe the rape conviction from the 1980s will be ruled admissible too. And if he has any record whatsoever of violence towards children, or neglect causing them suffering, and it's admissible, that is the end of his defence IMO - at least on the charge of causing or allowing death, maybe not manslaughter - although the same might not apply to CM's defence. But perhaps he only said "I wouldn't assault a police officer".... It's unclear what exactly the crown were seeking to rebut.

Perhaps since the rape conviction almost 40 years ago his only record for violence was the Welsh incident?

Everyone who doesn't know and who is interested is going to be speculating IMO.

I hope he returns to the witness box.

BBM
He said that his mother had passed on empathetic values to him.
Basically he tried to gaslight everyone that he is a caring loving chap.
It backfired because nothing says empathetic like raping, assaulting elderly neighbours, engaging in domestic abuse and assaulting female police officers. In a maternity unit, of all places.

MOO JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What

What went wrong...
She was clearly talented in many fields,, had looks and had the world at her feet.
And look at her now.

It goes to show that being vulnerable has nothing to do with privilege, finances, talents, or beauty.

She had all of those advantages and yet could not survive and thrive in the world. That is the power of emotional and psychological harms on a person IMO. JMO.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Just how contrast works in many minds...

Wearing my rational hat, I'm not sure the rape conviction from almost 40 years ago says much either way about the strength of the crown's case in the current trial when they aren't alleging any violence.



It could win her sympathy not in connection with her relationship with her parents but in her relationship with MG. They might think she's totally besotted, he's bewitched her somehow, all she's guilty of is being a stupid idiot, that kind of thing.

The rape and violence against neighbours may have been almost 40 years ago but since then there has been domestic abuse and an assault on police officers.
The current trial may not be about violence but if CM is going to start running her mouth about her "stolen" children, it's important to know why the children were taken in the first place.


She's an intelligent university educated woman who had the privilege of a private education, comfortable life and opportunity to travel.
She got involved with a man with a violent past and continued a relationship with him which cost her her children
She's definitely a "stupid idiot" but not in a way that generates empathy.
She's too old for the "besotted" excuse to the point of traumatising and losing your children and ending up with the death of the last one.

JMO MOO

 

[Skigh]

.

BBM
He said that his mother had passed on empathetic values to him.
Basically he tried to gaslight everyone that he is a caring loving chap.
It backfired because nothing says empathetic like raping, assaulting elderly neighbours, engaging in domestic abuse and assaulting female police officers. In a maternity unit, of all places.

He had the very best barristers provided for him and paid for by British taxpayers via legal aid and he wilfully ignored their advice and was arrogant enough to decided he was more qualified to run his own defence.I bet he loved his moment in the sun pontificating and trying to get one over the judge. Until reality hit.
Not so clever after all.

 

[Skigh]

Mark Gordon previously convicted of rape in US, Old Bailey retrial told

Gordon, who is on trial with his partner Constance Marten over the death of their child, was previously jailed in the US.

www.bbc.co.uk

On 29 April 1989, he broke into the house of a next door neighbour wearing a nylon stocking over his face, armed with a knife and hedge clippers, the court heard.

He demanded that the woman inside the house undress and attempted to rape her, before orally raping her and committing other sexual assaults.

Gordon then held her for four-and-a-half hours against her will.

On 21 May of the same year, he broke into another property carrying a flat-headed shovel and beat a male occupant about the head with the shovel.

He was sentenced in the US to 40 years in prison, of which he served 22 years.

In questions to Det Sgt Ian Valentine, who was giving evidence about the convictions, Mark Gordon, who is now representing himself, suggested that he had been "manipulated" in his police interviews in Florida, saying he had been a 14-year-old child without adult supervision.


So now he is saying no adult supervision. Where was his mother's influence ?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The rape and violence against neighbours may have been almost 40 years ago but since then there has been domestic abuse and an assault on police officers.
The current trial may not be about violence but if CM is going to start running her mouth about her "stolen" children, it's important to know why the children were taken in the first place.


She's an intelligent university educated woman who had the privilege of a private education, comfortable life and opportunity to travel.
She got involved with a man with a violent past and continued a relationship with him which cost her her children
She's definitely a "stupid idiot" but not in a way that generates empathy.
She's too old for the "besotted" excuse to the point of traumatising and losing your children and ending up with the death of the last one.

JMO MOO

Either CM is a 'co-criminal' perpetrator -or- she's a 'victim perpetrator' -or- straight up 'victim of MG'.

Is she a vulnerable woman who was doing OK despite her emotional / psychological setbacks (some sort of lack / abuse in childhood) until she met MG who maybe terrorised her, degraded her, or brainwashed her into this highly abnormal relationship?

Or is she an equally powerful participant in a shared delusion 'me and you against the world' and selfish with no care for whom gets hurt, including her own new born babies?

I don't agree with an age limit on such matters as we see elderly people give away their life savings to con artists and some even still refuse to believe they've been robbed when the gig is up and they doggedly refuse to listen to friends or family etc.

JMO MOO

 

[CaptainNancy]

Wearing my rational hat, I'm not sure the rape conviction from almost 40 years ago says much either way about the strength of the crown's case in the current trial when they aren't alleging any violence.

Shows that MG wasn't giving a full picture of himself as empathetic and compassionate - and links to the 2017 conviction and 2019 incident to show a sustained pattern of violence, so throwing doubt on the rest of his testimony as full and truthful.

Demonstrates that SS had grounds for interest - and that they may potentially have been removed for their safety rather than as a result of 'Forces' and racism etc.

The repeated violence demonstrates that CM knew him to be unsafe but chose to stay with him, prioritised her relationship with him over the potential safety of their children, and probably against the advice of SS (JMOO) . That she prioritised her relationship with him over the security of a stable roof over their heads.

So, shows a sustained pattern of unsafe parenting decisions and that the constant decision to flee the authorities was more about their relationship than the safety of their children.

 

[Lucy6226]

Even if we go along with his story of being fitted up for the rape charge...which could be possible the way the US was back then with black men and young people. He still committed crimes and assaults as an adult. There's no reasoning away that fact.

 

[jackal67]

It goes to show that being vulnerable has nothing to do with privilege, finances, talents, or beauty.

She had all of those advantages and yet could not survive and thrive in the world. That is the power of emotional and psychological harms on a person IMO. JMO.

But she was thriving and surviving in the world. She had her photography and journalism work. What emotional and psychological harm happened to her? If she has MH issues surely this would have been picked up by doctors SS over this many years and would have formed part of her defence

 

[Sillybilly]

Please continue at Thread #9.

This thread is closed..