UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[sleuth777]

Sky News link:

Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murdering eight babies

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[Sillybilly]

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[Knitty]

Please continue here.

 

[Marantz4250b]

*********************************

Just reposting my previous as I think the points made in the video are important and need to be understood by LL's supporters as posts on previous threads often get missed.

*********************************

For everyone here who has read/heard the conclusions of Dr Lee's panel of experts and think it's important new evidence please watch this video from CS2C, who is a poster here.

Nothing these "experts" are presenting wasn't dealt with in the original trial. They are simply cherry picking bits which sound quite convincing in isolation but were dealt with at great length in the ten month trial and not presenting the other side of them and why they are simply not relevant.

Nothing of what they say is true and none of it is new.

Pay particular attention to the part referring to the condition of the mother (I forget the name of it now and I'm too tired to look it up) allegedly being passed to the child and it being the cause of the collapse and death. That was dealt with at trial and it was accepted by the defence as to not be the case! The mother's condition was not passed to the child - as confirmed by a haematologist - and Ben Myers (LL's KC) accepted that as fact. He accepted it as fact because it WAS a fact!

Why is doctor Lee not pointing out the fact that his theory had already been tested in court and dismissed as false? My guess is because he hasn't actually read the thousands of pages of evidence - and neither has David Davis, regardless of what he claims - and has been fed only the facts that LL's new team want him to present.

Dr Lee and this panel seem to be being manipulated into saying whatever Marc McDonald wants them to say, in my very humble opinion.

"Send lawyers guns and money - the s**t has hit the fan": Warren Zevon.

 

[JosieJo]

*********************************

Just reposting my previous as I think the points made in the video are important and need to be understood by LL's supporters as posts on previous threads often get missed.

*********************************

For everyone here who has read/heard the conclusions of Dr Lee's panel of experts and think it's important new evidence please watch this video from CS2C, who is a poster here.

Nothing these "experts" are presenting wasn't dealt with in the original trial. They are simply cherry picking bits which sound quite convincing in isolation but were dealt with at great length in the ten month trial and not presenting the other side of them and why they are simply not relevant.

Nothing of what they say is true and none of it is new.

Pay particular attention to the part referring to the condition of the mother (I forget the name of it now and I'm too tired to look it up) allegedly being passed to the child and it being the cause of the collapse and death. That was dealt with at trial and it was accepted by the defence as to not be the case! The mother's condition was not passed to the child - as confirmed by a haematologist - and Ben Myers (LL's KC) accepted that as fact. He accepted it as fact because it WAS a fact!

Why is doctor Lee not pointing out the fact that his theory had already been tested in court and dismissed as false? My guess is because he hasn't actually read the thousands of pages of evidence - and neither has David Davis, regardless of what he claims - and has been fed only the facts that LL's new team want him to present.

Dr Lee and this panel seem to be being manipulated into saying whatever Marc McDonald wants them to say, in my very humble opinion.

"Send lawyers guns and money - the s**t has hit the fan": Warren Zevon.

Exactly...so much of the new defence panel information was dealt with at the trial and the Jury were told these alternatives

 

[Jazmania]

By the way, this article explains more accurately how many deaths occurred between 2015 to 2016. There were 13 at CoCH (Letby present for 11 of these). And 4 other deaths where babies born at CoCH were transferred to other units. (I assume 1 of those is baby K and we don't know whether she was present for the other 3). So 17 babies in total. Lucy has been found guilty of murdering or attempting to murder 8 of those and 2 further babies are the subject of ongoing criminal inquiry.

Police still probing two baby deaths - Letby inquiry

Police have reviewed the care of 4,000 babies who were in hospital during Lucy Letby's employment.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Charlot123]

Post in thread 'UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36'
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

“It is all assumed based on the memory of the intern about strange color of the skin"

What intern are you referencing?

The unusual rash was testified about by over a dozen different members of staff during the trial.”

In answer: I am referring to the Intern (i know his name) (there may be a different term used in UK, a registrar?) who inserted a PICC line around 5 pm into baby A. He later remembered the strange color of the skin. It is nowhere in the notes but was mentioned in the trials.

This skin color, “mottling” or “lived reticularis” was mentioned in three babies. Too bad they didn’t use medical terms but god-knows-what for description.

Livedo reticularis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Baby A’s mom had antiphospholipid syndrome that could have predisposed him for clotting.

But in his case, the first question I would like to know is: did a single consultant, not an intern, but a doctor with a degree in neonatology, take care of baby A from birth to collapse?

I have read that consultants were on the unit twice a week.

If a mixed level 2-3 unit in a regular, not teaching, hospital, has mostly interns caring for preemies, the whole case against Lucy IMHO had to be thrown out of court. It should not be even allowable.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Baby A’s mom had antiphospholipid syndrome that could have predisposed him for clotting.

Please watch the video I posted in the first post on this thread along with what I wrote regarding this exact issue.

This was dealt with by the court in the original trial. The mother's condition was categorically not causative of the child's death.

Letby's defence even affirmed this in their cross examination as being factual.

<modsnip: personalizing/telling others how to post>

 

[marynnu]

Post in thread 'UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36'
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

“It is all assumed based on the memory of the intern about strange color of the skin"

What intern are you referencing?

The unusual rash was testified about by over a dozen different members of staff during the trial.”

In answer: I am referring to the Intern (i know his name) (there may be a different term used in UK, a registrar?) who inserted a PICC line around 5 pm into baby A. He later remembered the strange color of the skin. It is nowhere in the notes but was mentioned in the trials.

This skin color, “mottling” or “lived reticularis” was mentioned in three babies. Too bad they didn’t use medical terms but god-knows-what for description.

Livedo reticularis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Baby A’s mom had antiphospholipid syndrome that could have predisposed him for clotting.

But in his case, the first question I would like to know is: did a single consultant, not an intern, but a doctor with a degree in neonatology, take care of baby A from birth to collapse?

I have read that consultants were on the unit twice a week.

If a mixed level 2-3 unit in a regular, not teaching, hospital, has mostly interns caring for preemies, the whole case against Lucy IMHO had to be thrown out of court. It should not be even allowable.

We don't have interns. The consultants were not only on the unit twice a week, they did 2 wards rounds a week which does not mean they weren't available at other times. It is not necessary for consultants to be around all the time as the bulk of day-to-day work is done by junior doctors (look that up).
This is a total distraction as the collapses, both fatal & non-fatal, were not linked to the presence or otherwise of medical staff.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Please watch the video I posted in the first post on this thread along with what I wrote regarding this exact issue.

This was dealt with by the court in the original trial. The mother's condition was categorically not causative of the child's death.

Letby's defence even affirmed this in their cross examination as being factual.

<modsnip: personalizing/telling others how to post>

intersting. i was aware that the condition had been ruled out but dr lees wording doesnt state the babs had it right? i was thinking maybe it just made clotting slightly more problematic but thats total guesswork. had anything like that been ruled out? id be really suprized ifthis supposedly top level neonatologists spouted nonsense especially nonsense thats already been covered seemingly ignorant of the trial itself. on the flip side i know the prosecution had top level guys as well so know which side im erring on currently. could very easily be the new guys just looking for stuff.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

In answer: I am referring to the Intern (i know his name) (there may be a different term used in UK, a registrar?) who inserted a PICC line around 5 pm into baby A. He later remembered the strange color of the skin. It is nowhere in the notes but was mentioned in the trials.

This skin color, “mottling” or “lived reticularis” was mentioned in three babies. Too bad they didn’t use medical terms but god-knows-what for description.

Livedo reticularis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They didn't call it that because that wasn't what it was.

 

[Sweeper2000]

did dr lee ever say they just looked at the med files themselves and not at the trial? otherwise its a non starter imo

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Let me put it another way... if someone sees an unfamiliar animal with 4 legs and fur and kind of like a dog but definitely not a dog, they wouldn't call it a dog. They'd say "it kind of looked like a dog but I've never seen anything like it before."

It would not make sense to assume that this person actually saw a dog and was too dumb to realize, especially if they were a veterinarian or vet tech or zookeeper, someone who works with animals.

Livedo reticularis is like the dog. What the staff saw was like the 4 legged animal that no one had ever seen before.

 

[joltz]

There

Post in thread 'UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36'
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

“It is all assumed based on the memory of the intern about strange color of the skin"

What intern are you referencing?

The unusual rash was testified about by over a dozen different members of staff during the trial.”

In answer: I am referring to the Intern (i know his name) (there may be a different term used in UK, a registrar?) who inserted a PICC line around 5 pm into baby A. He later remembered the strange color of the skin. It is nowhere in the notes but was mentioned in the trials.

This skin color, “mottling” or “lived reticularis” was mentioned in three babies. Too bad they didn’t use medical terms but god-knows-what for description.

Livedo reticularis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Baby A’s mom had antiphospholipid syndrome that could have predisposed him for clotting.

But in his case, the first question I would like to know is: did a single consultant, not an intern, but a doctor with a degree in neonatology, take care of baby A from birth to collapse?

I have read that consultants were on the unit twice a week.

If a mixed level 2-3 unit in a regular, not teaching, hospital, has mostly interns caring for preemies, the whole case against Lucy IMHO had to be thrown out of court. It should not be even allowable.

There was more than one person who remarked about the unusual rash on baby A.

 

[Sweeper2000]

By the way, this article explains more accurately how many deaths occurred between 2015 to 2016. There were 13 at CoCH (Letby present for 11 of these). And 4 other deaths where babies born at CoCH were transferred to other units. (I assume 1 of those is baby K and we don't know whether she was present for the other 3). So 17 babies in total. Lucy has been found guilty of murdering or attempting to murder 8 of those and 2 further babies are the subject of ongoing criminal inquiry.

Police still probing two baby deaths - Letby inquiry

Police have reviewed the care of 4,000 babies who were in hospital during Lucy Letby's employment.

www.bbc.co.uk

big thanks for that, wasn't aware of the numbers.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Please watch the video I posted in the first post on this thread along with what I wrote regarding this exact issue.

This was dealt with by the court in the original trial. The mother's condition was categorically not causative of the child's death.

Letby's defence even affirmed this in their cross examination as being factual.

<modsnip: personalizing/telling others how to post>

<modsnip: off topic> like everything it is still just his work and opinion pulled together from the same stuff we can all read online. Many of the court transcripts are now available with a Google, we have a lot of testimony from the Thirwall inquiry, we have videos of medical professionals and blogs by lawyers piping in on the case to substantiate arguments. <modsnip> He’s great, I have watched all his videos and hope he continues, but I am also aware it’s his take on the press releases and other Google searches- our views give him the privilege to be able to spend his days doing that. There is a whole wealth of opinions and insights out there and if we only accept one we are in danger of doing exactly what we are talking about with this case and only having one expert witness, or expert vlogger in this case.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

intersting. i was aware that the condition had been ruled out but dr lees wording doesnt state the babs had it right? i was thinking maybe it just made clotting slightly more problematic but thats total guesswork. had anything like that been ruled out? id be really suprized ifthis supposedly top level neonatologists spouted nonsense especially nonsense thats already been covered seemingly ignorant of the trial itself. on the flip side i know the prosecution had top level guys as well so know which side im erring on currently. could very easily be the new guys just looking for stuff.

Yes I heard the same thing as I was listening.

Lee's hypothesis is that maternal antibodies had crossed the placenta (and it sounds like that was verified by lab work if I understand what Dr. Kinsey is saying) and those antibodies, despite not originating from the baby, still increased the baby’s propensity to clotting. In listening to Dr. Kinsey's testimony I did not hear her specifically address this hypothesis. As a pediatric hematologist this information is not news to her. I believe the NICU staff would have been thinking the same thing - not that the baby inherited APS but that maternal antibodies crossed the placenta and may have affected the baby.

So when Dr. Kinsey gives her opinion that maternal APS did not affect the baby, it does not make sense for this hypothesis not to have been included since it would have been the main hypothesis. It would have been great to hear this teased out in court though. I will try to listen again and see if I missed something.

JMO.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Ok Sweepsr, it went by fast so I missed it the first time. She offers at 16:11 to go into more detail about the antibodies, which Justice Goss declines. Then at 16:50 she explains that only one type of mom's antibodies passed and that it "is not significant". When she speaks of APS not passing to the baby she *is* addressing exactly the hypothesis that Dr. Lee suggests. But that was the hypothesis- maternal antibodies. Not that the babies inherited the condition. It is only to non experts like you and I that it is easy to miss. Especially because we didn't get to hear her full explanation of APS which is summarized in this video. JMO

 

[Tricia]

Join cold case investigator and author of Unmasked: My Life Solving America's Cold Cases Paul Holes.
Paul will be answering your questions on our Ask Me Anything forum Thursday, February 27th, at 8:00 PM Eastern.
If you want to ask Paul a question, post it on THIS THREAD.
Then, on Thursday, watch THIS THREAD as Paul answers your questions.
We'll be giving away a couple of copies of Paul's book. The way to enter is to post your question.
See you Thursday at 8 PM Eastern on Websleuths first ever Ask Me Anything

 

[Ruthbullock]

There

There was more than one person who remarked about the unusual rash on baby A.

Yet in the court testimony it is referred to as a flitting rash by the judge. A pink flitting rash.
This fits with the type of rash that would be caused with

Antiphospholipid syndrome​

Which was what the mum was diagnosed with and in the testimony of Dr Evans describing the rash itself- was very unusual. Yet somehow we then leap to an entirely different conclusion.

Mottled skin (livedo reticularis): Causes, treatment, and more

Mottled skin can develop for various reasons, including low circulation, septic shock, and some chronic health conditions. Learn more here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com