Conrad Murray trial -Day four.

[Isabelle]

Looking forward to expert witness testimony!

 

[MissJames]

The paramedics said MJ's eyes were open and his pupils were dilated which is a sign that the person is deceased. After a person dies, all of their muscles relax so if the eyes are open at the moment of death, they will usually stay that way. Also, if someone had their eyes closed at the moment of death, they will tend to open a short time later due to the relaxation of the muscles that open and close the eyes. This isn't always the case, but for the majority of people, the eyes will be open.

Another article titled, 'The Journey Towards Death, Recognizing the Dying Process'
says the dying process usually begins well before death actually occurs and after reading this article and listening to some of the court proceedings, shouldn't it have been obvious to Dr. Murray that MJ's body was shutting down and preparing to die?

IDK if Dr. Murray was recording MJ's vital signs on a daily basis or paying strict attention to changes in his body but typically the dying process begins one to three months prior to death and 1-2 weeks before death the body has a more difficult time maintaining itself. Typically as a person approaches death, Breathing becomes more irregular and often slower. "Cheyne-Stokes" breathing, rapid breathes followed by periods of no breathing at all, may occur. Congestion in the airway can increase causing loud, rattled breathing.

I was present at two deaths and saw the dying process occur over time in both animals and humans and heard the death rattle so Dr. Murray should have realized MJ was dying long before his heart stopped beating IMO. However in cases where the person's death is "untimely", refusing to accept the fact the person is approaching death is a common reaction.

One to Three Months Prior to Death, the dying person may experience reduced appetite and weight loss as the body begins to slow down. The body doesn't need the energy from food that it once did. The dying person may be sleeping more now and not engaging in activities they once enjoyed. They no longer need the nourishment from food they once did. The body does a wonderful thing during this time as altered body chemistry produces a mild sense of euphoria. They are neither hungry nor thirsty and are not suffering in any way by not eating. It is an expected part of the journey they have begun.

Mental Changes One to Two Weeks Prior to Death:

This is the time during the journey that one begins to sleep most of the time. Disorientation is common and altered senses of perception can be expected. One may experience delusions, such as fearing hidden enemies or feeling invincible.

Physical Changes:

The body is having a more difficult time maintaining itself. There are signs that the body may show during this time:

•The body temperature lowers by a degree or more.
•The blood pressure lowers.
•The pulse becomes irregular and may slow down or speed up.
•There is increased perspiration.
•Skin color changes as circulation becomes diminished. This is often more noticeable in the lips and nail beds as they become pale and bluish.
•Breathing changes occur, often becoming more rapid and labored. Congestion may also occur causing a rattling sound and cough.
•Speaking decreases and eventually stops altogether.

Journey's End: A Couple of Days to Hours Prior to Death:

The person is moving closer towards death. There may be a surge of energy as they get nearer. They may want to get out of bed and talk to loved ones, or ask for food after days of no appetite. This surge of energy may be quite a bit less noticeable but is usually used as a dying person's final physical expression before moving on.

The surge of energy is usually short, and the previous signs become more pronounced as death approaches. Breathing becomes more irregular and often slower. "Cheyne-Stokes" breathing, rapid breathes followed by periods of no breathing at all, may occur. Congestion in the airway can increase causing loud, rattled breathing.

Hands and feet may become blotchy and purplish (mottled). This mottling may slowly work its way up the arms and legs. Lips and nail beds are bluish or purple. The person usually becomes unresponsive and may have their eyes open or semi-open but not seeing their surroundings. It is widely believed that hearing is the last sense to go so it is recommended that loved ones sit with and talk to the dying during this time.

Eventually, breathing will cease altogether and the heart stops. Death has occurred.

http://dying.about.com/od/thedyingprocess/a/process.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_eyes_stay_open_after_death#ixzz1ZY5ydOMT

But Michael wasn't dying over a period of months,weeks,or days.He was given a drug that killed him quickly. You wouldn't see those signs until death ,in that case,or at least cardiac arrest.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

AND.....it was stated earlier by Security that when he walked into the room he saw MJ on the bed with plastic bag/penis cath attached to MJ.
So how come Paramedic first saw MJ with pajama bottoms on and no mention of Penis cath?

Maybe he had a premonition that he didn't have to because Nancy Grace is going to mention it over and over and over and over and over ...

That woman is OBSESSED with MJ's urine. The phrase "surrounded by his own urine" is her new "like she's TRASH!"

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

Is that a real name?

I think it's facetious, but it's also a GREAT Aretha Franklin song!
:dance:

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

Above bolded by me

Not only were MJ's eyes fixed but the paramedic testified that MJ's eyes were dry.
Does anyone know how long it takes for eyes to dry that they'd be noticeable at first glance by trained medical?

Also: It's is still not stated on witness stand that paramedic noticed a plastic bag and tubing coming from MJ's penis.

Security testified one of the first things he noticed was the Penis Cath and yet it was nowhere in site when the first paramedic arrived on scene?
Something else hidden?....nefarious reasons?

Not being a trained medical person, even I would surely notice a plastic bag with tubing attached to someone's penis but paramedic said MJ was in pajama bottom?
Did someone remove Penis Cath and put MJ's pajama bottoms on him, all the while MJ was already dead?
Whether that's against the law or not, that shows total lack of scruples, moral judgment.

While I agree about the cover-up aspect, I think it's also fair that even an average person might at least pull up the pajama bottoms. It's not very dignified, after all, and MJ was, as the paramedics stated to the hospital, a VIP. Medical personnel wouldn't care a bit and would probably only make note of it (and it only makes sense to use one if he was sedated to a serious degree), but if (when) the public found out, they might not hear anything past the words "penis" and "urine".

Of course, CM didn't want ANYONE to realize that the patient was not merely overly sedated, but actually under anesthesia. A catheter is unlikely to be needed if a patient is merely exhausted and being rehydrated via an IV. I wonder if CM yanked it off and stuffed it in his pocket before the EMTs came in.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

Possible pathologic fractures due to weak bones.

Or maybe this wasn't the first time he needed CPR.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

I'm still up here. :fence:

I like that new defense attorney. A lot more pleasant to listen to and not as confrontational with the witnesses.

I think today's testimony was a draw. It shows Dr. Murray as a liar but also very much wanting to do whatever he could to help Michael. I'm still unclear as to his motive to "hide" evidence. I don't think he was deliberately doing so to save himself. I think he was trying to protect Michael from scandal. It's unbelievable how much allegiance his people had and I have no doubt there was a lot of covering up not only by Dr. Murray, imo.

I did notice the prosecution refer to Michael's condition as "in distress". Why would she use that term if the testimony from prosecution witnesses indicate he was dead? :waitasec:

I believe the technical term for MJ's medical condition at the time Dr. Murray FOUND HIM, let alone by the time EMTs got there was "dead, dead, dead, deadity-dead, dead, dead" aka "not just merely dead, but really most sincerely dead".

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

From what I understood, yes and protocol to have him in the ambulance with the patient. What I wonder is why didn't medical personnel from the hospital talk to Dr. Murray? Also, a nurse was relaying the information to the doctor. The female doctor said she didn't know the patient was MJ when the nurse was relaying this information to her. I don't believe that. No way.

Are you talking about the nurse relaying the information she had in the phone/radio call from the EMT, or a nurse relaying the information after MJ had reached the hospital? In the recording of the EMT talking to the nurse, he stated that this was a high-profile VIP. I took that not only to be code to let them know they this was a celebrity and that added security would be needed, but also specifically so that anyone eavesdropping by whatever means would not be clued into who it was.

Of course, since the paparazzi was following the ambulance, word DID get out pretty quickly.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

Hearing Michael Jackson's slurred words of how he wanted to create such a great show; he sounded so earnest and completely unaware of how dangerously drugged he was at the time.

Back in 1991 I had wrist and elbow surgery. AFAIK they gave me Versed. I was FLYING. I remember opening my eyes and becoming vaguely aware partway through it and I could see the insides of my wrist, but I didn't really care; then I closed my eyes again and was out again until it was over. I didn't feel a thing during that time.

What I remember most about that anesthetic, though, every time I hear that recording of Jackson so obviously impaired was that I sounded very much like that to my own ears as I as going under. I had started to tell the people in the room a joke (the one that ends with "he had a HAT!"). I was perfectly lucid as I STARTED the joke, but I was really fighting to enunciate as I proceeded with it. I did manage to get in the punchline, because they all laughed when I did (maybe they were laughing at how funny it was to hear me TRYING so hard to enunciate in that state). I remember feeling perplexed/surprised that I could no longer control the way my words were being formed, even as I realized it was the Versed taking effect. I really FOUGHT it to get that punchline in :biggrin:

So when I hear that recording of MJ, I can almost FEEL what it must have felt like to him to try to say it. Except I was aware that my words were becoming uncontrollable as my muscles relaxed to such a degree. Then again, maybe he was too.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

While I agree about the cover-up aspect, I think it's also fair that even an average person might at least pull up the pajama bottoms. It's not very dignified, after all, and MJ was, as the paramedics stated to the hospital, a VIP. Medical personnel wouldn't care a bit and would probably only make note of it (and it only makes sense to use one if he was sedated to a serious degree), but if (when) the public found out, they might not hear anything past the words "penis" and "urine".

Of course, CM didn't want ANYONE to realize that the patient was not merely overly sedated, but actually under anesthesia. A catheter is unlikely to be needed if a patient is merely exhausted and being rehydrated via an IV. I wonder if CM yanked it off and stuffed it in his pocket before the EMTs came in.

Following up on my own post:

I just read the autopsy report, and the catheter was attached still (or a new one was in place, although that seems unlikely since he was dead and a new one would not be needed). So they probably pulled up his pajama bottoms, but the catheter was left in place.

The autopsy report mentions a SINGLE container of urine at the scene, so NG is just a tad bit exaggerating (ya think) when she continually refers to him being "surrounded by his own urine".

 

[Isabelle]

Was the catheter that was in place at the time of autopsy an indwelling catheter? I would think one would have been inserted in the ER during initial assessment. The ER wouldn't use a condom catheter.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Does anybody know if there's a site that's archiving all the trial video? I'm looking for the opening statements especially. TIA.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Hello WS friends..I have indeed been following this trial..and find it very difficult to voice my thoughts..especially when I hear the blame game..Im sorry..but I was never a MJ Fan..tho did like some his tunes..and fully realize his history and drug addictions..BUT first and foremost I am a HC giver..Front Line, Trauma, ER, Intensive type RN..and for a supposed Cardiologist who even thought of using Propofol in a home setting without medical equipement and staff to do what he did is "OFF THE CHARTS" Negligent and Malpractice..Not to mention, Conrad Murray was NOT a newbie..HE knew exactly what he DID NOT KNOW..yet still went ahead and used a drug(+other drugs in combo) NOT having required supports...

The fact he had forknowledge and knew the risks..is to me Total disregard for human life (whether MJ's or anyone) tho didnt CARE cause his friend wanted it!!..Not te mention the 1.8 million a year coming...$$$

Im sorry..this case has my blood boiling where CM is concerned..and for me Involuntary Manslaughter is far too little ( I believe 2nd degree) But some bloggings seem to indicate and obscure facts and replace things with MJ druggy..paying for drugs..etcc..etc....and Yep CM in his incompetence got caught with pants down..a Competent Physician would NOT have...

CM should go to jail!! but Most important..Lose his friggen licence to practice medicine ever again..

First and last post on this subject..just voicing my opinion..views..Hope there's Justice :twocents:

Yes, it seems that even if CM was acting in open agreement as MJ's drug dealer, he wasn't administering the drug properly. He was on the phone for about hour right before MJ died, when apparently you're supposed to be constantly monitoring someone on propofol. Obviously, he shouldn't have been giving him the drug in the first place, but if he was going to, he needs to do it safely. As MJ was his cash cow, I don't think it was was CM's intention to ever kill him, so involuntary manslaughter is a proper charge.

 

[MissJames]

Yes, it seems that even if CM was acting in open agreement as MJ's drug dealer, he wasn't administering the drug properly. He was on the phone for about hour right before MJ died, when apparently you're supposed to be constantly monitoring someone on propofol. Obviously, he shouldn't have been giving him the drug in the first place, but if he was going to, he needs to do it safely. As MJ was his cash cow, I don't think it was was CM's intention to ever kill him, so involuntary manslaughter is a proper charge.

A former from the same county discussed this issue on HLN. He explained why Murray could have ,and should have been charged with manslaughter. I don't recall the details ,but his actions would have qualified for a higher charge. Even the TH's were surprised to hear it ,but under CA law he could have been charged with more. Just because he didn't intend MJ to die doesn't make it involuntary.

 

[panthera]

A former from the same county discussed this issue on HLN. He explained why Murray could have ,and should have been charged with manslaughter. I don't recall the details ,but his actions would have qualified for a higher charge. Even the TH's were surprised to hear it ,but under CA law he could have been charged with more. Just because he didn't intend MJ to die doesn't make it involuntary.

Would the higher charge have been negligent homicide, or is involuntary manslaughter equivalent to that in CA?

:waitasec:

 

[Crosby87]

But Michael wasn't dying over a period of months,weeks,or days.He was given a drug that killed him quickly. You wouldn't see those signs until death ,in that case,or at least cardiac arrest.

The drug administered by Dr. Murray is not entirely responsible for Michael's sudden death; stress was a contributing factor imo.

I only watched Day 4 of the trial but someone said MJ lost weight prior to his death, drank only a glass of juice for breakfast, ate sparsely throughout the day, and ate 2 meals a week with his children.

MJ was rehearsing and working very hard just before he died and according to the caloric intake calculator, MJ's body required approximately 2400 calories per day. (55% carbohydrates, 15% protein, and 30% fats). In addition to a proper diet, MJ should have been taking a daily multi-vitamin and drinking plenty of water during rehearsals to keep his system hydrated and flush out toxins. Dr. Murray said MJ's body was dehydrated.

Our bodies slow down and deteriorate rapidly when they are deprived of proper nutrition, fluids, and adequate rest; and this ill-treatment impairs the mind's ability to function properly. IOW, when we fail to take care of ourselves, our bodies naturally slow down depriving us of our ability to achieve our goals.

A proper diet energizes and replenishes our bodies and gives us a sense of well-being. Making time to relax and meditate everyday enables your body and mind to unwind and stabilize. If we can't communicate honestly with ourselves and others and act in accordance to our own truth we create a toxic environment for ourselves which can have deadly consequences.

Did Dr. Murray conduct a stress test on Michael and order a chest x-ray to see what condition his heart was in?

MJ’s speech is very slow when he talked about his upcoming tour and this could be a sign he was dying. MJ was urinating in a tube while he slept so it's possible he was loosing control of his bladder. However, if MJ wasn't drinking an adequate amount of fluids throughout the day, he shouldn't need to urinate while he slept.

It's possible Michael knew in his heart he wasn't physically & mentally competent enough to meet the demands of the tour and he wanted to escape rather than disappoint his fans who were a source of life for him. Several hockey players died this summer just before they were scheduled to do something “big” in their career and I believe MJ made this choice too.

Thank God Super Star Sidney Crosby did not ignore his recurring symptoms and attempt a comeback before he was cleared by his physicians. At Sidney's press conference in September his doctors said Sid is progressing rapidly and making an amazing recovery because of the quality of their patient doctor relationship which is the type of relationship Dr. Murray shared with his patient who testified in Court on Friday. Obviously Sid makes healthy food choices and as a result he looks extremely happy and well-nourished. Sid was raised in a stable environment and he is disciplined which makes him a positive role model and everyone's hero.

Excruciating details of MJ's life were aired publicly and prolonged stress, anxiety, and depression can restrict the flow of blood to the heart and limit movement of a specific body part or their entire body. Several times MJ appeared in a wheelchair.

MJ, due to his fame and lavish lifestyle, had as much if not more stress to contend with on a daily basis than the patient who testified in Court on Friday and openly stated that pressure from work caused his heart defect. Unless a person pays attention and seeks medical attention when the warning signs first appear, they can cause irreparable damage to themselves.

Dr. Murray warned his patient that his heart would stop functioning if he didn't take steps to improve his health and the only reason he is alive today is because he listened and initiated Dr. Murray's recommendations promptly.

Dr. Murray should have treated MJ for stress too because the extra work involved in planning his comeback tour alone would have dramatically increased MJ's stress level. In addition MJ was 50-years-old and his body had undergone a series of operations over the years. He was often seen wearing a mask over his face when he appeared in public and his attendant held an umbrella over his head to protect him from the sun. Loosing one’s hair and turning grey are signs one is getting old, and these changes can be very traumatic. MJ was a dancer so his legs likely ached causing him a lot of physical discomfort when he began rehearsing. He had 3 young children to take care of as well and his reputation was tarnished because of the abuse allegations and this likely caused him endless suffering. He also was divorced and going though a public trial is a very difficult and emotionally draining experience. Plus he was publicly chastised for dangling his baby over the balcony.

Alot of people abuse their physical bodies and neglect their health until they experience a heart attack and it seems inevitable to me MJ was destined to suffer a heart attack. Therefore I can’t see how MJ’s body could possibly continue to function normally under these adverse conditions without proper medical attention. A weak heart caused by stress contributed to Michael's death imo.

 

[Soulmagent]

I agree with the stress levels and MJ surely would have known about upping his calories during the conditioning part of preparing for the tour.

Also his Cook should have been advised as his needs would be vastly different . So was someone other than Micheal pushing for this tour? I wanna say I bet that is why the recording was made.

Accept I am trying really hard not to taint myself and go looking for the underwriting in evey insurance policy I can find.

I also think (from court testimony ) that Micheal might have died standing up and fell.

Murray might have heard something and called out for Prince thinking it was him, going in the room.

According to cour records, it took Williams an Alveraz a few minutes before they were together in the room but Williams was called By Murray first. It makes no sence the during that time Murray would not rush to do the hiding of the propofol and tubes and bags until after Alveraz arrives.

The timeline is screwy. Murray had a few minutes alone with Micheal and could have called 911 or the cook from downstairs of even called prince then. So this "show " is for who? Prince? Alveraz? Why would Murray need to make a show for Alveraz?

It is like saying look I am hiding stuff...one handed CPR Ripping IV's out of legs(or making it look like I did ,or Alveraz is mistaken ) Then having Alveraz help do chest compressions after it has already been 5 minutes since he called williams even. Why didnt he call Prince sooner, Why wait for Alveraz ? Prince was old enough to go get help ,or call 911.. Was Alveraz in the room when Micheal died and that is why the timeline is screwed? Then Murray calling for prince may have been a knee jerk reaction and Alveraz was there to hear it and they had to cover Alveraz already being there at that time. Also would explain the joint CPR efforts and why that doesnt fit with the timeline.

Unless it is a lie and it had to lead to Murray and Murray and Alveraz already knew it had to. IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

He did not die from stress. His heart was in excellent shape. He went into cardiac arrest when his respiratory system shut down due to the influx of propofol and benzos.

He died because he was completely saturated in propofol in a short amount of time which can be lethal and was...combined with the benzo cocktail.

He died because Murray let all the popofol go right into his vein almost all at once.

He died because he had no doctor monitoring him. The doctor that was to be paid an astronomical figure each month was distracted and thought it more important to talk/text and email than do what he was paid to do. He was so wantonly reckless he just gets up and leaves his patient to die all alone without the doctor even being by his side.

 

[Soulmagent]

He did not die from stress. His heart was in excellent shape. He went into cardiac arrest when his respiratory system shut down due to the influx of propofol and benzos.

He died because he was completely saturated in propofol in a short amount of time which can be lethal and was...combined with the benzo cocktail.

He died because Murray let all the popofol go right into his vein almost all at once.

He died because he had no doctor monitoring him. The doctor that was to be paid an astronomical figure each month was distracted and thought it more important to talk/text and email than do what he was paid to do. He was so wantonly reckless he just gets up and leaves his patient to die all alone without the doctor even being by his side.

He died because a doctor ordered a drug he had no bussiness ordering.

That is one thing I am for sure of and would find him guilty on that fact alone. No matter how the rest of the trial goes. It is however interesting to watch this trial and see the in and outs of the day MJ died. I would think with such and open and shut case that their would not be any questions as to who (all) is to blame for MJ's death and It looks like so far that is waning as the truth.

Yes he is guilty ,but the guilt might not be all his.

 

[21merc7]

Just glancing through before getting ready for work.

I am not certain about the amount of hair loss, but could that have been from the scarring from the Pepsi burn?

The mask over his face may have been for allergies, iirc there was an allergy medication in the autopsy report link, that included all meds found at the home, so I am guessing that is police reports attached.

The umbrella was because of the vitiligo. (sp?) I had a close friend with it and she wore hats and carried umbrellas b/c of it. She said the sun made it worse and the sun felt harsher on her skin.

The catheter was b/c of the nightly drugging. That's just that.

His caloric intake. Any performer will try to remain very lean as cameras increase the size of your body. However, everyone knows what they are comfortable with. I agree he was not eating enough, but you can't make someone eat that does not want to so they can stay thin. Also, after working out I notice I am not very hungry, so 16 hour prep dancing may have made him feel the same, so he just ate enough to get by.

I just noticed those few things, and feel there are simple explanations for them. I don't know how many drugs MJ was on for daytime and night time, but the autopsy report states he was in decent health, minus some osteoarthritis which is normal at 50.

His lungs quit working b/c of the night time drugs in such a high rapid dose, then everything else stops as no oxygen can get to the organs and blood.