Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - Pamela Buckley & James Freund #9

[branmuffin]

The vehicle tracks might not be "local" if James drove it south. We don't know if he drove south, flew south, hitchhiked, whatever.

Snow tires today are not like snow tires of 1976. Now a set of 4 is recommended because new winter tires use a softer rubber compound that benefits traction, steering, and braking. 1976 vintage snow tires were just for the drive wheels to provide traction to get the car moving. In fact, putting those old snow tires on front wheels was discouraged.

You are correct, just because the gun was local doesn't mean the vehicle was local. I always figured the vehicle belonged to James and Pamela, anyway, so it's quite possible the tires were old school snow tires. We don't call them snows anymore for the very reason you mentioned; they are meant to be used in weather colder than 4 degrees C because the compound is softer so grips hard cold services better. I drive to Florida fairly frequently and know the tires wear out quickly in warm weather.

 

[shellbee]

There were multiple wheelbases for pickups and vans back then, even with the same manufacturer. A van and a pickup could share a wheelbase and track (tire mark width) or they could be entirely unique. From what I've read, law enforcement had databases of these.
For example, here are the specs for a 1976 Dodge (I only picked 1976 Dodge because I had the brochures for both for that year):
The van had wheelbase options of 109" or 127".
The pickup had wheelbase options of 115", 131",133", 149", 165".
The measurements that weren't specified is track. I'm guessing the combination of wheelbase and track caused them to say it was a van. And possibly the footprints could have shown an exit from the rear of the vehicle which would confirm witness reports of hearing a door?

That's a really good observation. Looking at this picture, the position of the bodies, and what appear to be tire tracks, it's imo highly plausible.

 

[MadMcGoo]

That's a really good observation. Looking at this picture, the position of the bodies, and what appear to be tire tracks, it's imo highly plausible.

I agree. The positioning of everything would lead me to believe the vehicle was backed up to that location, as opposed to just pulling along the side of the road. I doubt they were in the trunk of a car or bed of a pickup. Although, those two things aren’t entirely impossible.

ETA: I guess it would help to see any other tracks on the road in order to determine if the vehicle backed up or drove off the road like that.

 

[branmuffin]

I agree. The positioning of everything would lead me to believe the vehicle was backed up to that location, as opposed to just pulling along the side of the road. I doubt they were in the trunk of a car or bed of a pickup. Although, those two things aren’t entirely impossible.

ETA: I guess it would help to see any other tracks on the road in order to determine if the vehicle backed up or drove off the road like that.

Why do you think the vehicle backed up to that location? I'm trying to figure out why based on the tire tracks. I see two sets of tire tracks, one set in a straight line that didn't appear to stop that are overlaid by the ones that appear to take off quickly from a standing position leaving a spray of gravel. It's hard to tell how wide the second tire tracks are because they sank into the soft shoulder but they appear to be two sets from different vehicles.

 

[shellbee]

Do vans and trucks have the same wheelbase? Would farm vehicles have mud grips?

I live in Canada. All our coroners are licensed doctors trained in pathology. They aren't voted into their positions, they are hired based on education and experience. What background did Verna have to take on the role of coroner?

It varies by state in the US. In some places the only requirement is the coroner has to be 18 years of age. I don't know who does their autopsies. I'm guessing local physicians. Or they're sent to the state pathologist or a university.

Right out of college I was hired as a death investigator for the Wayne County (Detroit MI) ME. Michigan doesn't have a coroner system. Each county has a medical examiner. It is a hired position. All of our doctors were certified by The American Board of Pathology. The doctor I trained under literally wrote the book on forensic pathology. (Medicolegal Investigation of Death: Guidelines for the Application of Pathology to Crime Investigation)

The PBS show Frontline did an excellent episode a few years ago that highlighted the inadequacies of of certain systems. It's worth a watch if that kind of thing interests you.

 

[Eddie99]

That's a really good observation. Looking at this picture, the position of the bodies, and what appear to be tire tracks, it's imo highly plausible.

The Wheelbase measurement is the distance from the front axle to the rear axle.

I would suppose it's possible they were able to determine that measurement if they had the right tire track evidence; such as a turn radius
Or they braked hard and the dirt they disturbed would indicate where the tires were.

I feel safe assuming they are talking about the overall axle width. Or the distance between the right side tire, to the left side tire.

 

[Vern]

Oy. Busily working for the past couple of days. I'm seeing a bunch of posts about "mud grips".

What's the MSM or other source for this new tidbit or is it rumour? I've scrolled through but perhaps I missed the link to the source.

 

[Vern]

The vehicle tracks might not be "local" if James drove it south. We don't know if he drove south, flew south, hitchhiked, whatever.

Snow tires today are not like snow tires of 1976. Now a set of 4 is recommended because new winter tires use a softer rubber compound that benefits traction, steering, and braking. 1976 vintage snow tires were just for the drive wheels to provide traction to get the car moving. In fact, putting those old snow tires on front wheels was discouraged.

Snow and Mud (S&M) tires are not the same thing as Winter Tires.

S&M are three-season tires.

Neither of the above are like they were in 1976 to be sure, but they are two different types of tires.

Here (in Canada), I have three sets of tires for my Jeep:
Summer;
Snow & Mud (these have bigger gaps in the treads, so are used for off-roading & mudding - that's what they are made for), They aren't suitable for a Canadian winter or any place that actually gets snow accumulation); and
Winter Tires which do not have treads anything like my S&Ms, nor can I leave them on the Jeep when the temp gets back up to +5 because the tread just gets sticky, sticky, sticky and my fuel consumption rate heads way, way up.

In this province, it is mandatory to have Winter Tires on our vehicles (all 4 tires) from 30 Nov to 31 March. $500.00 buck fine with 10 days to comply. We also require annual Safety Inspections here.

 

[killarney rose]

I don’t mean to sound critical, but what do snow tires have to do with finding the killer(s)?

 

[Vern]

I don’t mean to sound critical, but what do snow tires have to do with finding the killer(s)?

I think there was discussion about the type of tire tracks left at the scene.

Somehow, Mud Grips came into the conversation ... I'm still unsure if that was due to someone's speculation as to the type of tires or whether we actually have an MSM / legit source for this info (none that I could find in here anyway).

I think it is going to show from where the vehicle may have come from - ergo a clue to the killer. In this case, if they were S&M tires I don't believe that's indicative of antything as anyone wanting to travel off-road or mudding would use S&M tires for that - and, they do that in the south too. If they were however, winter tires, that would indicate that a vehicle from a more northern location was used in a murder in South Carolina ... say Minnesota?

There's another murder case from the south somewhere; it was a police officer who killed a girl. They nailed him because one of the tires on the vehicle used was a winter tire that had been one of two (something like that) shipped accidently to the southern state. When they found out who the tires were sold to, it turned out to be the police department and they had been installed on this police officer's squad car. Can't remember the name, but they story made it's way up here in Canada with many commentary about a winter tire wouldn't narrow the suspect field like that up here.

 

[killarney rose]

@Vern thanks for the explanation. I was thinking another rabbit hole but that makes sense.

 

[shellbee]

Oy. Busily working for the past couple of days. I'm seeing a bunch of posts about "mud grips".

What's the MSM or other source for this new tidbit or is it rumour? I've scrolled through but perhaps I missed the link to the source.

Clipping from The Item - Newspapers.com

 

[Betty P]

Oy. Busily working for the past couple of days. I'm seeing a bunch of posts about "mud grips".

What's the MSM or other source for this new tidbit or is it rumour? I've scrolled through but perhaps I missed the link to the source.

Yes, there's an MSM link a few pages back.

As for how it might pertain to finding the killer, it might indicate the vehicle belonged to one of the victims if it had tires used on vehicles where there's winter weather. If it belonged to one of the victims, it may or may not indicate more than vehicle used in the murders, possibly more than one killer.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Why do you think the vehicle backed up to that location? I'm trying to figure out why based on the tire tracks. I see two sets of tire tracks, one set in a straight line that didn't appear to stop that are overlaid by the ones that appear to take off quickly from a standing position leaving a spray of gravel. It's hard to tell how wide the second tire tracks are because they sank into the soft shoulder but they appear to be two sets from different vehicles.

Maybe I just don’t know what I’m looking at.

I see what looks like a track that runs parallel to the road, right up against the shoulder. Then I see one darker set that look like they come from the center of the road and then veer off into the grassy shoulder, where the bodies were found. But I think what you’re describing seems more logical.

 

[Beachlife926]

IMO I could be way off but my first instinct was backed into then drove off but I guess it depends which direction coming from
If coming from the direction of police cars, then I imagine pulling in then backing out. But why not pull off the side of road that your already on (more room on CS side?)
If coming from the direction we can’t see in the picture, it would be driving on the crime scene side and see more of a backing in scenario. (Especially if they were already deceased and at a location near the back of vehicle or it was a sudden stop)

Also, IMO just looking at the picture, the space between tires does seem wide but a van might not be guaranteed to get out of ditch if it got stuck

 

[worm]

I thought they did the three point turn around too but the clip above says they know the perp went to a shed to do it. I’m surprised they took the chance to drive back to the highway but given the full moon, I guess the murderer took one last look at the victims.

 

[branmuffin]

I thought they did the three point turn around too but the clip above says they know the perp went to a shed to do it. I’m surprised they took the chance to drive back to the highway but given the full moon, I guess the murderer took one last look at the victims.

There was a full moon but it was cloudy.

 

[worldwatcher]

There are so many contradictory post/story's here,this one I read about - when- the gun was stolen, I really thought, it was 4 or 5 years, prior to the murders took place, but now I am not sure, anymore..?
Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #6
Can someone enlight this, pls?

 

[shellbee]

Somehow in the sixteen years of following this particular case, I missed this article. It contains several bits of information I had not seen before. I'll post these here for others to read first and in a later post offer some thoughts etc.
Clipping from The Item - Newspapers.com

Clipping from The Item - Newspapers.com

 

[Betty P]

Somehow in the sixteen years of following this particular case, I missed this article. It contains several bits of information I had not seen before. I'll post these here for others to read first and in a later post offer some thoughts etc.
Clipping from The Item - Newspapers.com

Clipping from The Item - Newspapers.com

This one mentions the tobacco shed as a place where the van was turned around.

Mentions witness who lived nearby watching Johnny Carson show and hearing 2 shots, then later 2 more. Autopsy report said each was shot 3 times. Maybe shot elsewhere the first time or witness didn't hear 2 of the shots.

Again emphasizes how clean, healthy and well groomed the couple were. Pam had nice manicure and pedicure, etc.