UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[bobbymkii]

wow cross examination is finally over. I was starting to think we would never get there!

 

[Maryanna]

wow cross examination is finally over. I was starting to think we would never get there!

Re-examination is also over and she has been discharged from the witness box.

She has called Peter Fleming. He has done a lot of work on cot deaths:

Back to sleep: the doctor who helped stem a cot death epidemic

Sudden infant death syndrome cost thousands of lives in the 70s and 80s - until Peter Fleming’s conversations with bereaved families led to his discovery that babies should sleep on their backs

www.theguardian.com

Edit: at least, I assume he's a defence witness. It's possible CM closed her case and the crown called him in rebuttal. Reporting in the Argus isn't great.

 

[dotr]

March 25 '24 rbbm

Constance Marten and partner ‘told each other to lie to police for protection’

Marten, 36, is on trial over the death of her newborn daughter Victoria while on the run from authorities with her partner Mark Gordon, 49.

uk.news.yahoo.com

''She said Gordon told her not to tell police that Victoria died while Marten was holding her in her sleep because police would “blame” her.

Marten said she told Gordon to tell police he was not there at the time.

Asked if she advised Gordon to lie to the police, she said: “Yes, I’m very protective over my husband because I feel that he gets blamed for everything.”

She added: “I thought they were going to automatically blame him, being a black guy, and I am the good one usually.”

 

[Maryanna]

A lot of what CM has said under cross-examination presumably wasn't in the statement she made to her solicitor that formed the basis of her evidence-in-chief.

I wonder what MG would have said if he'd given evidence.

For all we know, it may have been MG who accidentally fell asleep on top of their daughter.

 

[EricAcaciaAvenue]

Or the child may simply have died from exposure/malnourishment, and the "sleeping accident" was devised later as something they could say "could have happened to anyone".

 

[DianaWW]

Write up from the independent:

‘I neglected myself’: Constance Marten says baby died because she was exhausted

The mother admitted she advised her partner Mark Gordon to lie to police because they would “automatically blame him, being a black guy”

www.independent.co.uk

 

[porkypies]

From the Argus coverage to-day.
complaint/defence from CM under questioning.
"Police will pile up charges and they like to prosecute."
So they do! who would have thought.

 

[CaptainNancy]

Re-examination is also over and she has been discharged from the witness box.

She has called Peter Fleming. He has done a lot of work on cot deaths:

Back to sleep: the doctor who helped stem a cot death epidemic

Sudden infant death syndrome cost thousands of lives in the 70s and 80s - until Peter Fleming’s conversations with bereaved families led to his discovery that babies should sleep on their backs

www.theguardian.com

Edit: at least, I assume he's a defence witness. It's possible CM closed her case and the crown called him in rebuttal. Reporting in the Argus isn't great.

Yes, Fleming is a defence witness.

 

[OrangeCash]

March 25 '24 rbbm

Constance Marten and partner ‘told each other to lie to police for protection’

Marten, 36, is on trial over the death of her newborn daughter Victoria while on the run from authorities with her partner Mark Gordon, 49.

uk.news.yahoo.com

''She said Gordon told her not to tell police that Victoria died while Marten was holding her in her sleep because police would “blame” her.

Marten said she told Gordon to tell police he was not there at the time.

Asked if she advised Gordon to lie to the police, she said: “Yes, I’m very protective over my husband because I feel that he gets blamed for everything.”

She added: “I thought they were going to automatically blame him, being a black guy, and I am the good one usually.”

Does she even hear herself? She's so entitled it's unbelievable.

MOO!!!!

 

[crespo29]

I know the jury is something of a lottery, but I do not see how the charges of
manslaughter by gross negligence and perverting the course of justice and concealing the birth of a child and the other charges will be proved. There is no forensic evidence of how baby Victoria died, and little other evidence of how they were living up until the death which we have to assume was 9 January 2023. CM and MG have said how they were hounded by PIs and they suspected the Authorities were supportive of the Marten family and that is why they fled, There has been no evidence to disprove this.
I am of the opinion that their poor decisions caused the death of their baby, but as they deny this and there is no way of disproving their story they have to be found innocent of the charges. That is the way the law works.
If by chance they are found guilty, there will be much mitigation to be taken into consideration and there will almost certainly be an appeal.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

I know the jury is something of a lottery, but I do not see how the charges of
manslaughter by gross negligence and perverting the course of justice and concealing the birth of a child and the other charges will be proved. There is no forensic evidence of how baby Victoria died, and little other evidence of how they were living up until the death which we have to assume was 9 January 2023. CM and MG have said how they were hounded by PIs and they suspected the Authorities were supportive of the Marten family and that is why they fled, There has been no evidence to disprove this.
I am of the opinion that their poor decisions caused the death of their baby, but as they deny this and there is no way of disproving their story they have to be found innocent of the charges. That is the way the law works.
If by chance they are found guilty, there will be much mitigation to be taken into consideration and there will almost certainly be an appeal.

Isn't it the case though, that the prosecution doesn't have to prove motive? We as onlookers would almost certainly like to delve deeper into the truth behind CM's claims just to satisfy our own curiosity, but in terms of proving GNM or causing the death of a child, whether these things were real or a figment of paranoid imaginations is not relevant IMO.

Edited for layout.

 

[crespo29]

Isn't it the case though, that the prosecution doesn't have to prove motive? We as onlookers would almost certainly like to delve deeper into the truth behind CM's claims just to satisfy our own curiosity, but in terms of proving GNM or causing the death of a child, whether these things were real or a figment of paranoid imaginations is not relevant IMO.

Edited for layout.

I agree with what you say, my point is that, there doesn't seem any way it can not be proved that baby Victoria died by accident. Similar cases have not even gone to court.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

I agree with what you say, my point is that, there doesn't seem any way it can not be proved that baby Victoria died by accident. Similar cases have not even gone to court.

I hear what you say, but equally proving or not proving whether baby Victoria's death was an accident (in terms of overlaying, as CM claims) is also not relevant IMO, because the whole living situation was not comparable to similar cases.

If the jury are satisfied that CM & MG's choices led directly to a living situation that endangered baby Victoria because the only way to keep her warm was to constantly expose her to the risk of accidental asphyxiation, then that's GNM, as far as I can see.

 

[DianaWW]

Link for today:

Recap: Trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

Court expected to sit at 11.30am

 

[Maryanna]

I hear what you say, but equally proving or not proving whether baby Victoria's death was an accident (in terms of overlaying, as CM claims) is also not relevant IMO, because the whole living situation was not comparable to similar cases.

If the jury are satisfied that CM & MG's choices led directly to a living situation that endangered baby Victoria because the only way to keep her warm was to constantly expose her to the risk of accidental asphyxiation, then that's GNM, as far as I can see.

<modsnip>

Was CM asked about matters such as boiling water? Not only in relation to keeping Victoria clean but also in relation to having some hot food which helps keep a person awake.

This is all JMO but I would say the prosecution need a bit more than just "The defendants chose to live in a tent when it was cold".

Their choice has in any case to be considered in the context of their circumstances (the same as with anybody's choice if it's alleged to be criminal), and their whole relationship with social services was part of their circumstances.

 

[Alyce]

From today's link

Dr Peter Fleming, professor of Infant Health and Developmental Physiology at the University of Bristol, will continue giving evidence

But he hasn't been recalled ?

Recap: Trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I know the jury is something of a lottery, but I do not see how the charges of
manslaughter by gross negligence and perverting the course of justice and concealing the birth of a child and the other charges will be proved. There is no forensic evidence of how baby Victoria died, and little other evidence of how they were living up until the death which we have to assume was 9 January 2023. CM and MG have said how they were hounded by PIs and they suspected the Authorities were supportive of the Marten family and that is why they fled, There has been no evidence to disprove this.
I am of the opinion that their poor decisions caused the death of their baby, but as they deny this and there is no way of disproving their story they have to be found innocent of the charges. That is the way the law works.
If by chance they are found guilty, there will be much mitigation to be taken into consideration and there will almost certainly be an appeal.

Agree about the lack of clarity but the fact is that baby V did die and on the surface she looked healthy and well and robust in the kebab shop video.

We also know what the temperatures and weather conditions were and how the couple were living at the time of her death and that they were inadequately equipped to keep even themselves alive, never mind a newborn - we see that both CM and MG had sustained injuries and illnesses by the time of their arrest. So although a cause of death cannot be ascertained then there's almost a reverse argument which is 'how could she possibly have lived?' in my opinion...

Also, there was no other scientific or forensic evidence of the baby dying from something else by way of explanation and that could have potentially been the case, ie a disease or congenital issue that nobody could have predicted, say a hole in the heart or a weak brain valve or suchlike. I am not a lawyer and don't understand the legal implications of all that but let's see what the judge and jury have to say.

JMO MOO

 

[Alyce]

From today's link

Dr Peter Fleming, professor of Infant Health and Developmental Physiology at the University of Bristol, will continue giving evidence

But he hasn't been recalled ?

Recap: Trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

Oh he's back now, perhaps just a timing issue

Proceedings resume​

The court is back in session and we are going to hear from Professor Peter Fleming.

Francis FitzGibbon KC, who represents Marten, is questioning Professor Fleming about how the age of babies can be estimated by certain measurements.

Professor Fleming says measuring the length of a baby is the "least valuable" of measurements.

Mr FitzGibbon says Victoria's age was put between two to six weeks, although the doctor could "not be definitive".

Mr Fleming said he would put Victoria's age between two to three weeks.

"It is likely the best fit," he said.

He said it would be "unlikely" she would have been older, although he said it would not be "impossible".

Recap: Trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

​

 

[InstantCoffee]

Ah, I see - so they have sought out Prof Fleming as he has studied babies in Mongolia - hence the reference from CM previously...
Argos 2:47pm

Professor Fleming is now talking about his study into how children are cared for in cold places.
He studied people in Mongolia in the winter, he said.

It's still comparing apples and pears in my opinion - CM and MG have absolutely no cultural experience of raising a child like this! Where did CM&MG boil their water for cooking and washing? Where did they build a fire in their tent, where is the information and the skills of nomadic people passed down through the generations?

 

[DianaWW]

Ah, I see - so they have sought out Prof Fleming as he has studied babies in Mongolia - hence the reference from CM previously...
Argos 2:47pm

Professor Fleming is now talking about his study into how children are cared for in cold places.
He studied people in Mongolia in the winter, he said.

It's still comparing apples and pears in my opinion - CM and MG have absolutely no cultural experience of raising a child like this! Where did CM&MG boil their water for cooking and washing? Where did they build a fire in their tent, where is the information and the skills of nomadic people passed down through the generations?

Exactly what I thought. Presumably the people in Mongolia don't live in a festival style tent with a unicorn sleeping bag from Argos...JMO.