Timeline of Events

I think it's maybe just that I'm on some pretty heavy pain meds lately, but I am finding myself increasingly frustrated with the concept of 'windows of time' in which the crime might have happened. Of course, there's a brace of theories to consider, but surely there's a base line set of approximate 'windows' between firm last sighting, EToD and discovery?

Anyone? I am sure I'll be able to try to nut it out myself, when not so foggy, but some info/links/discussion meantime would be awesome.
 
I think they must have been attacked before dark, Ausgirl. If they'd been able to go home when it got dark, at least one of them would have IMO. Not to mention that Stevie was afraid of the dark, so I can't see him voluntarily hanging out in a patch of creepy woods in the pitch black.

Sunset was at approx 7.50pm that night.
 
Thanks Cappa. :) I too think this might be so, but right now it's more belief than firm hypothesis for me.

I'm looking at the - what, maybe 19-20hrs? between 6.30 pm Wednesday 5th to 1.45pm Thursday 6th - and thinking maybe we can successfully shave bits off that block of time by deducting things like the probable -minimum- time the boys were dead prior to discovery.

I think narrowing the window from 20 hrs to less than, might help frame the actual window of crime activity.

I am sure this has been done before by about a million people, but I find working through things myself helps my thought processes in general, as well as assisting 'incidental' discoveries.
 
surely there's a base line set of approximate 'windows' between firm last sighting, EToD and discovery?
The prosecutions opening statements at the Misskelley trial is a good place to start:

If you would, I want you to just kinda think back umm, May the 5th 1993. On May the 5th 1993, Michael Moore, Stevie Branch and Chris Byers were in school at Weaver Elementary School in the second grade, all of 'em eight years old. After they got out of school, umm, they're all friends, at some point after getting out of school, Stevie Branch goes over to Michael Moore's house, and Michael and Stevie they were both on their bicycles, uhh, one of them has a, uhh, Michael has a green bicycle and Stevie has a red and black bicycle, and they're riding around the neighborhood, uhh, just doing what eight year old kids do, just playing.

Well about, uhh, somewhere around 6:00, Michael's mother is outside and she sees Michael on his bicycle, and Stevie on his bicycle, and they've joined up with Chris Byers, who lived across the street from Michael, and I believe the proof's going to show that Chris is riding on the bicycle with Stevie and they're heading north on Goodwin.

Now, this is an aerial photograph and this shows part of Goodwin, is this street right here, and they were heading north on Goodwin, headed toward this area, which is referred to by the kids as Robin Hood area. And on the photograph, you'll be able to see all the trails and things that the kids ride their bikes on and play. And this area here, this wooded area here, uhh, the proof's going to show is an area that's called Robin Hood Hills and it's a wooded area, and believe it or not, in Crittenden County there's some, some higher elevations and lower elevations, and it's a place, a wooded area, I guess it's the kids' Sherwood Forest, it's where the kids play and uhh, do what kids do.

This is the interstate highway, I-55, this is what's called the Blue Beacon Truck Wash, proof's going to show that this is a Love's Truck Stop right here, this is all residential area in here.

Now, the proof's going to show, as I said that Dana Moore saw these boys heading on these two bicycles headed north on Goodwin Street and she sent her daughter to go get them, it's time for supper, it was about 6:00, and the daughter couldn't catch up to him, and later, I think a neighbor who uhh, somebody that lives on, I believe it's this circle right here, in one of these houses, saw the kids headed toward that area, they had been kinda riding through her yard and she said you know ya'll don't ride in my yard, ya'll are gonna run over my trees and the last they were seen, they were headed toward this area. That was the last time that the kids were seen alive, that we know of.

Now, some time a little bit later, I believe the Byers family, uhh, Chris wasn't supposed to be out there, he was supposed to have been at home, I think maybe cleaning up the garage or something, he wasn't supposed to be out there and uhh, when Mr. Byers gets home, uhh, the wife's there and they see that Chris is not there and after a period of time, they begin to look. Uhh, a little bit later, the Moores begin to look, and can't find the kids, you know they're going around the neighborhood. Now, at this time, uhhm, Stevie Branch's mother was working at Catfish Island which is a restaurant over near the interstate and uhh, her husband was at home and he had begun to look.

Well, the parents begin to get a little frantic and they end up spending a, really a frantic night of searching for these kids. Uhhh, they search and search and search and they don't find their children.

Well, on May the 6th '93, the, there's a full scale search out, uhhh, people searching all over, not only in this area but all over anywhere, you know, that the kids might possibly be.

Sometime around 1:00, in this area, and in this area by the way, the proof's going to show that there's a creek that uhh, I use the term loosely for our area because it's some kind of a drainage ditch but it, it's more like a creek, flows through this wooded area into, this is a major drainage canal right here, and it flows into that, somewhere about right in here. Now, right here, and of course you can't see it from there, but there's a large pipe that the kids use to cross this ditch to get into this wooded area.

Now the proof's going to show that sometime around 1:00 the next day, the uhh, police get a call that, you know, somebody needs to come out here and one of the officers goes out to this area and there floating in the water, in this creek has about 2 and 1/2 feet, maybe 2 and 1/2 feet of water, maybe knee deep water, he sees a tennis shoe and maybe a couple of tennis shoes. And he tries to cross over to the other side where he thinks that he can get to it and falls in the water and uhh, you'll actually even see photographs of before he actually got in the water, and then where he fell in the water and then he gets up and goes around and he gets back into the water to get this tennis shoe and see whether it's something that might mean something and as he's going towards the tennis shoe, his foot hit something. And when he lifts up his foot, Michael Moore's body comes up.
And of course you can read on in the trial transcripts for the testimony from the aforementioned witnesses and more, and read prior documentation regarding what they saw in the document archive.

Oh, and here's a Google maps link of the apartments just south of Robin Hood Hills which makes for a good frame of reference for figuring out exactly where the boys were seen by the various witnesses throughout the evening.
 
Thank you, kyle. It's nice to have all those links in one place.

Now, I know Peretti eventually decided on a ToD between 1am and 5am? Have I got that right?

Has there been any expert objection to that estimate? If so, why?
 
Thanks again, Cappa. I really could dig all this up for myself, but this is saving me so much time. Much appreciated. And as I said, nice to have the links all in one handy location.

Note to self, mainly: check out whether the species of fly (re insect activity on bodies) was ever firmly id'd.

ETA: no, it wasn't - the larva were apparently never sent for testing. :\

just some notes, re possible time frame for fly access and other stuff:

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/kenth.html
CRITTENDEN COUNTY CORONER'S OFFICE SUPPLEMENTAL REPORT BODY #2
NAME: STEVE EDWARD BRANCH CASE
NO.: [blank]
AGE: 8
RACE: WHITE SEX:
MALE BODY FOUND BY SGT. MIKE ALLEN AT [blank] AND APX. [blank] FROM BODY NUMBER 1, BODY IS REMOVED FROM WATER BY POLICE AND PLACED ON WEST BANK OF CREEK. 1. BODY IS NUDE 2. RT. HAND IS TIED TO RT. ANKLE. LEFT HAND IS TIED TO LEFT ANKLE BY SHOE LACES 3. LIVIDITY WILL BLANCH WITH PRESSURE, 4. RIGOR UNABLE TO TELL DUE TO THE WAY THE BODY IS TIED 5. FLY LARVA IN EYES 6. BODY PLACED IN WHITE SHEET AND TRANSPORTED TO FUNERAL HOME. 7. BODY TAGGED AS BODY #2 8. BAG OF ICE PLACED ON ABDOMEN LAST SEEN AT 6:00 P.M. MAY 5, 1993 PRONOUNCED AT 3:58 P.M. MAY 6, 1993 BY KENT HALE CORONER BODY FOUND IN APX. 2.5 FEET OF WATER, APX. 60 (degrees) IN TEMP. BODY IS REMOVED FROM WATER BY POLICE AND PLACED ON WEST BANK OF DITCH. BODY HAS CUTS ON LEFT SIDE OF FACE FROM CHIN TO CHEEK, M.E. OFFICE CALLED IN LITTLE ROCK, AR. BODY SENT TO M.E. OFFICE IN LITTLE ROCK, AR. KENT HALE CORONER


CRITTENDEN COUNTY CORONER'S OFFICE SUPPLEMENTAL REPORT BODY #3
NAME: CHRISTOPHER MARK BYERS CASE
NO.: [blank]
AGE: 8
RACE: WHITE
SEX: MALE FIRST IDENTIFIED AS JAMES MICHAEL MOORE BODY FOUND BY SGT. MIKE ALLEN AT [blank] AND APX. [blank] FROM BODY NUMBER 2, BODY IS REMOVED FROM WATER BY POLICE AND PLACED ON WEST BANK OF DITCH. 1. BODY IS NUDE 2. RIGHT HAND IS TIED TO RIGHT ANKLE, LEFT HAND IS TIED TO LEFT ANKLE BY SHOE LACES 3. LIVIDITY WILL BLANCH WITH PRESSURE 4. UNABLE TO TELL DUE TO BODY BEING TIED 5. FLY LARVA IN EYES AND NOSE 6. BODY PLACED IN WHITE SHEET AND TRANSPORTED TO FUNERAL HOME. 7. BODY TAGGED AS BODY #3 8. BAG OF ICE PLACED ON ABDOMEN M.E. OFFICE CALLED IN LITTLE ROCK, AR. LAST SEEN AT 6:00 P.M. MAY 5, 1993 PRONOUNCED AT 4:02 P.M. MAY 6, 1993 BY KENT HALE CORONER BODY HAS BEEN EMASCULATED, STAB WOUND ON HEAD. LOOKS LIKE BRUISING ON FACE AND LEGS ALL BODIES HAVE BEEN PULLED FROM WATER BEFORE MY ARRIVAL AT THE SCENE BY WEST MEMPHIS POLICE DEPT. THEY ARE COVERED WITH BLACK PLASTIC
 
I will be the first to admit I skimmed it and did not re-read it closely, but what I gathered from the portion quoted, it set out a timeline of where Chris, Michael and Stevie were. I don't know that I'd disagree with any of it. Like I said, I'd have to re-read it closely again to state that with certainty, but at first glance, I wouldn't disagree. Thanks.

Any timeline for Echols, Baldwin and Misskelley that ultimately puts them at the scene of the crime? TIA
 
What really struck me in the notes I posted above was the livor mortis blanching under pressure:

Livor mortis usually appears 30 minutes to 2 hours after death, though it may appear sooner in cases of severe heart failure in which the antemortem circulation was sluggish. After a PMI of 8–12 hours, red cells extravasate from the vessels into the surrounding soft tissue. Until that time, the application of pressure to an area of livor will result in blanching of the skin.

Pressure on unfixed livor results in blanching of the coloration.

After that period, livor may blanch with forceful pressure but will eventually not blanch, at which time it is considered fixed.

NASTY IMAGE WARNING: CLICK AT OWN RISK
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680032-overview#aw2aab6b6

So, if livor mortis is generally fixed after 12 hours and no longer blanches, this would indicate that ToD was no MORE than 12 hours prior to that examination linked above, in which I THINK the livor mortis observation occurs at around 4pm, am I right? yes no?

If it was at 4pm, and pressure blanching was still occurring, then ToD was probably no later than 4am, possibly up to a couple hours after that.

Must nail that time of observation down.. also must check out pressure blanching in other cases where bodies are found in water..

ETA: re fly 'larva', from link above (nastier images, omg, so nasty):

Blowflies usually lay eggs in temperatures higher than 50° F in daylight hours within hours of death when they have access to bodies (see the following image). (Aus-note: no, don't see it, really, it's horrid, spare yourself the trauma)
Fly eggs, which resemble Parmesan cheese, accumulate on moist areas and accessible orifices of the body.

The eggs hatch in 1–2 days.

So - it was eggs. Probably lots, if they were confused with larva. Might have been laid after bodies retrieved from water, though. Perhaps waterlogging of eggs led to confusion with larva, must check out what happens to fly eggs in water..
 
Now, I know Peretti eventually decided on a ToD between 1am and 5am? Have I got that right?
Peretti made a rough estimate the time of death with respect to lividity, which was the only medical indicator indicator he had to work from given the condition in which the bodies were found, and as a professional he testified as much at trial rather than revising his opinion based on on the body of non-medical evidence which proved his estimate incarnate.

Any timeline for Echols, Baldwin and Misskelley that ultimately puts them at the scene of the crime? TIA
That was addressed [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9971444#post9971444"]back on page two[/ame].
 
kyle, cheers, I am looking at Peretti's estimate as probably close to accurate (though I am still checking the effects of water on lividity/pressure blanching and other factors, as well as nailing down the time that the blanching was actually observed before I agree with him completely... )

Keep in mind, I am NOT attempting to fit facts to any suspect-based theory, what I am concerned with is -accuracy- of estimated times, and suspects are way into 'deal with that later' territory.
 
That was addressed back on page two.

Thanks. Bear with me as Misskelley's thoughts aren't always coherent and he changes his story so often. But what I'm gathering then is the theory is that Jason, Damien and Jessie run into Chris, Michael and Stevie in the woods around 7:18 (approximation). Is that correct?

Any thoughts as to when and where Jason, Damien and Jessie were, say from the time the boys would have gotten out of school. Where were they? Who were they with? What times were they there? When did they meet up themselves? How long were they in the woods? (I'd assume from some time before 7:18 until some time just before 9:45 or whenever it was that the Hollingsworths claimed to have seen Damien). What about after? Where did they each go? What time? Who was there? TIA
 
That's a horrible assumption to make.

Okay. :shrug:

But as pressure blanching doesn't much occur after 12 hours past ToD (as I can see so far, having not yet researched in depth what happens to lividity in water..) I don't see how an estimate of ToD in the ballpark of less than 12 hours prior to the observation of said pressure-blanching is "horrible".

I'd call it "quite likely" at this stage.
 
But what I'm gathering then is the theory is that Jason, Damien and Jessie run into Chris, Michael and Stevie in the woods around 7:18 (approximation). Is that correct?
That's what the evidence shows.

I'd assume from some time before 7:18 until some time just before 9:45
The latter part of that is a horrible assumption to make.
 
having not yet researched in depth what happens to lividity in water..
I doubt Peretti researched that much either.

I don't see how an estimate of ToD in the ballpark of less than 12 hours prior to the observation of said pressure-blanching is "horrible".
Well consider the source:

It`s based on the facts that I know. As I stated um - yesterday, determination of the time of death is more of an art and not a science. And it's very subjective. And um - I'm just going by one fact that was put in the report. I wasn't at the scene. I didn't have the opportunity to review - to examine the bodies at the scene. But - you know, based on the information that I have - I mean, it could be a little shorter. It could be a little longer.
 
I'm actually, on this issue, less interested in Peretti than in the guy who stuck his finger in the lividity and observed that it visibly blanched. I have to assume he had a pair of functioning eyes and knew what 'blanching' meant.

If the lividity was still blanching, to the best of my knowledge this means it's MOST likely ToD was not more than 12 hours from observation of blanching.

As I said, though, the fact the bodies were in water may change that significantly. There's a forensics school in my city - perhaps I'll write to one of the professors there and ask what the variables are and can be, if I can't find solid info on that online (I haven't so far).

Now, I'd LOVE to get a definite time on when that observation took place. There's a good couple hours between the bodies being removed from the water and deaths being called at around 4pm.
 
Ausgirl said:
I am looking at Peretti's estimate as probably close to accurate
That's a horrible assumption to make.

How is this a horrible assumption to make? Doesn't Peretti say as much?

Even FP states this isn't a science, that it's subjective.

FP:determination of the time of death is more of an art and not a science. And it's very subjective. (bolded by me)


FP: I'm just going by one fact that was put in the report.


Davis: Ok. Did you in fact not tell us at that time that you could not give an accurate estimation as to time of death based on one factor alone.
Peretti: That`s right.

Peretti: the coroner's report wasn't written to the standards that it should have been written to.

Davis: And was it your conclusion that he had failed to get the information that a coroner would normally get prior to sending the bodies to your office.
Peretti: That`s correct


Peretti: Well, in the coroner's report it just states um - lividity blanches um - with pressure, I believe that`s how it`s phrased. Um - it doesn't mention the amount of lividity, where the lividity is. Um - We are building a house starting with the roof and not with the foundation. So um - you know, it just says lividity blanches with pressure. I don't know where he's measuring that from um - what part of the body. I have no idea. It would be best to ask him.

I haven't closely re-read the whole report but it is becoming apparent that if things where done correctly than Peretti may have been able to give a more accurate TOD. So it appears, to me anyhow, that this is his opinion based on a non-compliant coroners report.

IMO I don't see what is so horrible about Ausgirl's statement
 
^ Just to add to this.. once lividity is fixed, it doesn't 'blanch' under pressure. Because it's fixed, the end. The blood is going nowhere, even under pressure. That's what fixed means.

If there's still blanching, then it isn't fixed. And fixing -generally tends to- happen -after- 8-12 hours. I am saying 12 to allow for a generous margin, because it's NOT and cannot be an exact thing.

If there's to be an argument that ToD was more than 12 hours prior to the blanching observation, I would like to see evidence of blanching still occurring after 12 hours (I haven't found any yet but that's not to say it doesn't exist ofc), and how far after 12 hours is the absolute physical outside margin of that, in the crime scene conditions.

"After about 12 hours the livor will become fixed and no longer blanch under pressure" - from The Color Atlas of Forensic Medicine and Pathology
(eta: WARNING - Nasty pictures)
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...livor mortis blanching under pressure&f=false

Another factor to take into account (note to self) is the age of the victims, in that children have thinner skin.
 
Here I go, arguing with with myself again.

(Though I do respect you, Aus, you're often wrong. Now go and make me some lunch.)

(Just post the link proving you're WRONG, will you, Aus? And you can make your own damn sammich.)

/cough. Anyway. Proof I am wrong:

"It is typically stated that if the body remains in the same position as at the time of death for 6 to 12 hours livor mortis will become fixed. For example, should a person die lying on their back and remain in that position for 6 to 12 hours, livor mortis will become fixed on the posterior surface of their body with the exception of pressure points and will remain so even if their body is turned over onto their stomach. This is a helpful feature that can give you insight as to whether the body position was changed after death.
Should you apply pressure with your finger onto the area of livor mortis it will not blanch. This is what is meant when the pathologist uses the phrase “fixed violaceous post mortem lividity extends over the anterior or posterior surface of the body with the exception of pressure points.”

Should the body be moved before fixation has taken place, the livor will shift to the new dependent position. It should be understood that the time frames given for onset of livor and development of fixation are not rigid. Francis Camps reported a case in which livor was fixed within one hour of death. John Burton observed shifting of livor in bodies moved 24 hours after death. Perhaps the best study on the issue of shifting and fixation of livor mortis was that done by Suzutani et al. In their study involving 430 bodies livor
was fixed in 30% of those deaths that were 6 to 12 hours old. In over 50% livor was fixed in those who had been dead for 12 to 24 hours and no fading occurred in 70% in those who had been dead for more than 1 to 3 days.

http://forensicmd.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/early-postmortem-changes1.pdf

And proof I'm right! (p 6):

http://www.neiu.edu/~circill/davis/anth109b/taphotime.pdf

(The result of this is confusion, and that -no-one- gets a sammich) :(
 

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