Timeline of Events

[gheckso]

I'm no forensic pathologist but by looking at those figures how could anyone possibly give an accurate range for TOD based on Lividity? which if I am not mistaken, Peretti did.

 

[Ausgirl]

Well. he's not really speaking out of his backside. A great many scholarly articles state that livor becomes fixed, generally speaking, at between 8-10 to 8-12 hours. So many do so, in fact (the vast majority of the dozens I have looked at for this case alone, and in what must be hundreds of articles over the past couple years'..) that I tend to see that as more usual than say 24 hours (which I have seen stated.. once).

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf

^ This is an excellent article from the U. of Dundee, stating exactly that.

Livor mortis develops gradually, usually reaching its maximum coloration at 8–12 hours. At about this time, it is said to become “fixed.

^ from another article, aimed at educating LEO's,
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/dl/free/0073401536/592412/Swanson10e_ch09.pdf

That said, who can say for --sure- that it was 8-10 hours in THIS case?

Not me.

But I'm not a pathologist, either -- and I'm not under pressure, like Peretti was.

 

[Ausgirl]

Just to add - what IS agreed on, in -every- scholarly article I have read, is that the one thing livor mortis -is- good for (as far as accuracy goes) is determining whether a body has been moved post-mortem. If not precisely -when-..

 

[Cappuccino]

Perreti's evidence was already challenged on TOD by Dr Duke Jennings, who gave evidence at the Echols/Baldwin trial. IMO, Jennings' challenge was flawed, and Peretti's evidence was sound. So I would agree that the TOD was within the range of 1 am to 7 am, unless anyone has evidence to the contrary.

But, of course, I'm not a doctor, so this is just the opinion of a lay person reading what forensic pathologists say.

 

[Ausgirl]

Cappa, I think on this we presently concur.

and I can finally quit reading up on this stuff and go make my lunch, heh

 

[gheckso]

Trying to get my head around this a little.

Davis: Ok. Now Doctor, just once again so I understand it. In this estimation that you gave Mr. Ford as to the time of death, that was based on only one factor, is that correct?
Peretti: Based on - you know, when they were last seen, when they're found dead, and what was found - the lividity, when the coroner arrived at the scene.
Davis: Ok. But your opinion was not based on all those factors, it was based on only one thing - lividity, correct?
Peretti: Well, the lividity and the two factors that I just mentioned because I`m going to have to take them into consideration.
Davis: In other words, they couldn't have died before they were last seen or after they were found.
Peretti: That`s right.


So the rigor and the algor wasn't measurable by the coroner because of the body positions and possible contamination.

And the lividity could be affected greatly by cooler temperatures, or greater temperature differentials.

So is it possible the actual TOD could have been longer than 12-15hrs and therefore before 1am?
It appears that Peretti doesn't deny this possibility

ETA: Nevermind, he does say as much.
FP: 12 to um - 15 hours. It could be longer, and it could be shorter.
Fp: it could be a little shorter. It could be a little longer.

 

[reedus23]

That's what the evidence shows.


The latter part of that is a horrible assumption to make.

You're correct. I mistyped. Should have been after the 7 time frame.

 

[Ausgirl]

Okay.

So - NObody knew then nor knows now for sure when the ToD actually -was- and there is no way anybody can reasonably deduce it now.

Except that the boys had been dead for more than hour or so, prior to being found, probably several hours.

I am sorry to derail a timeline thread, but thought it worth the effort to try to determine if there was actually a narrower window of time that might help with focus on who was where and when.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Ausgirl,

IMO, discussing the ToD and its ramifications is important. So, I've started [ame=http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10012587#post10012587]this thread [/ame] to discuss ToD and other items related to what the bodies tell us.

 

[primitivefuture]

I thought this was interesting. From the article "what the WMPD evidence file really contains" by Chris Worthington.

While my mind was elsewhere, Greg casually asked Officer Al if he'd participated in the search efforts for the missing children. The answer we received certainly managed to gain my interest. Al and a partner had indeed searched Robin Hood Hill woods sometime after dark the evening of May 5th, and according to him had been within a few feet of where the bodies were later found, right along the ditch bank. After not finding anything, he gave up and returned to his regular patrol route. Not expecting any big revelation, I asked if the bank had been slicked off or washed down, which was what Det. Mike Allen testified to at the Echols/Baldwin trial, leading to the state's contention that this revealed an effort to clean a crime scene of blood, shoe prints and other forensic evidence. Al proceeded to drop a bombshell. He hadn't observed anything like that at all, and could not have been more emphatic. "If I did, we would have found the children that night!" he insisted. The fact that he was contradicting Mike Allen's testimony and undermining the state's entire theory of the crime didn't faze him a bit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Perreti's evidence was already challenged on TOD by Dr Duke Jennings, who gave evidence at the Echols/Baldwin trial. IMO, Jennings' challenge was flawed, and Peretti's evidence was sound. So I would agree that the TOD was within the range of 1 am to 7 am, unless anyone has evidence to the contrary.

But, of course, I'm not a doctor, so this is just the opinion of a lay person reading what forensic pathologists say.

This was a defense forensic pathologist expert that they decided not to call - Dr. Chris Sperry. We can look at some of his information as well.

begins on Page 514

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/rule37/june10.html


14 Q. One of the issues you wanted Doctor Sperry to look at
15 time of death. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Because that might or might not be an issue at trial?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Was there something that was coming up before trial that
20 led you to believe that time of death might be of some
21 consequence -- or estimation of the time of death?
22 A. Mr. Baldwin's lawyers -- one of their key issues in their
23 defense was trying to establish that the time of death did not
24 occur between the -- this is kind of general -- 6:00 o'clock to
25 10:00 o'clock p.m. time period on the day of the murders.


515

1 Their theory was it took place sometime after midnight,
2 around 2:00 o'clock to 4:00 a.m., somewhere in that time period.
3 So that was one of the things that Doctor Sperry had looked
4 at for us to see if he could determine the time of death and
5 determine which of those windows it would fit in.
6 Q. When he looked at that particular information, are you
7 aware as to what input he gave back to you regarding an estimate
8 as to time of death?
9 A. His conclusion was it would not have been the 2:00 to 4:00
10 a.m. time period, that it would have been between the 6:00 and
11 10:00 p.m. -- on the days the boys were missing.
12 Q. That 6:00 to 10:00 p.m. would have been something that
13 would have been consistent with the state's theory of the case,
14 correct?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So y'all kind of kept that tight to your vest and didn't
17 reveal that because it's not helpful to your client?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Now, so you had the -- let me ask you this: In terms of a
20 criminal investigator, have you ever used or been associated
21 with a criminal investigator that was any more skilled at his
22 job than Ron Lax was?
23 A. Not in the area of death penalty cases.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

No competent attorney calls a witness that would be detrimental to his case. That's why the prosecution didn't call Aaron Hutcheson, for one. I'm not sure why a TOD of 6 - 10 pm would be detrimental to Jason (or Damien or Jessie for that matter) as IMO they have alibis. IMO, this is a non-issue.

Has a timeline been posted yet that shows how Damien, Jason and Jessie did it? IIRC, that was the purpose for this thread.