Book released by Defense Attorney, Nov 2015 #2

Trapped with Ms. Arias


L claims he had "some evidence supporting her claims":

-he had 2 experts tell him that she had "symptoms related to PTSD"

-he had 2 domestic violence experts tell him that she was a victim of domestic violence during relationship wth TA

-he had "emails from the Hughes to TA about how he abused women"

-there were "the comments from the Hughes made to Detective Flores about how they could see Mr. Alexander being physical with Ms. Arias"

-there were the sex tapes

"Now those of you who want to call me all sorts of names for supposedly calling Mr. Alexander a pedophile, something I never done, may not like facing a reminder of this particular fact."

L wants us to remember that TA reference 12 yr old girl having her 1st orgasm, "corking the pot" of 12 yr old girl during convo with the murderer

---


-Nurmi!, JM's 1 brilliant lady, beautiful to boot, throughly demolished your 4 hired guns. You despise her because of her brilliance in doing so.

-Nurmi! It's about time you leave the Hughes alone. Sky loved and cared about Travis so she had every right to say what said. Her saying 'you are abusive' to Travis is fundamentaly and radically different from your saying 'He is abusive'.

-Nurmi! Watch how JM demolishes your favorite evidence, the sex tape.

(Warning to WSrs: Watch from ~13:20. This part is little bit gross. Note what JM says to Fonseca "I want you to listen to it . If you can't hear it, let me know and I will turn up the volumn.:floorlaugh: And I think he actually turns up the volumn.)

[video=youtube;WkH6qGspyKk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkH6qGspyKk[/video]
 
-Nurmi!, JM's 1 brilliant lady, beautiful to boot, throughly demolished your 4 hired guns. You despise her because of her brilliance in doing so.

-Nurmi! It's about time you leave the Hughes alone. Sky loved and cared about Travis so she had every right to say what said. Her saying 'you are abusive' to Travis is fundamentaly and radically different from your saying 'He is abusive'.

-Nurmi! Watch how JM demolishes your favorite evidence, the sex tape.

(Warning to WSrs: Watch from ~13:20. This part is little bit gross. Note what JM says to Fonseca "I want you to listen to it . If you can't hear it, let me know and I will turn up the volumn.:floorlaugh: And I think he actually turns up the volumn.)

[video=youtube;WkH6qGspyKk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkH6qGspyKk[/video]

Soooo frustrating to listen to her...
 
-Nurmi!, JM's 1 brilliant lady, beautiful to boot, throughly demolished your 4 hired guns. You despise her because of her brilliance in doing so.

-Nurmi! It's about time you leave the Hughes alone. Sky loved and cared about Travis so she had every right to say what said. Her saying 'you are abusive' to Travis is fundamentaly and radically different from your saying 'He is abusive'.

-Nurmi! Watch how JM demolishes your favorite evidence, the sex tape.

(Warning to WSrs: Watch from ~13:20. This part is little bit gross. Note what JM says to Fonseca "I want you to listen to it . If you can't hear it, let me know and I will turn up the volumn.:floorlaugh: And I think he actually turns up the volumn.)

[video=youtube;WkH6qGspyKk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkH6qGspyKk[/video]


There is NO WAY she was doing all of those fake yelps at her Grandparents tiny little home. I don't recall hearing that they were hearing impaired, so dammit... another big fat lie from the lying liar. She should be so ashamed for what she put those two through. I can just imagine her cussing Granny on the phone from Perryville.... B**** !I just wonder where she was when she set him up?
 
There is NO WAY she was doing all of those fake yelps at her Grandparents tiny little home. I don't recall hearing that they were hearing impaired, so dammit... another big fat lie from the lying liar. She should be so ashamed for what she put those two through. I can just imagine her cussing Granny on the phone from Perryville.... B**** !I just wonder where she was when she set him up?

I'll bet she recorded the cat squeals separately, when no one was around... Then sutured them into the patchwork quilt of other recordings with TA.
 
Nurmi seems to be sticking to his "apples + oranges = bananas" approach to criminal profiling, and his conclusions are indeed bananas. There was no reason for Jodi to hide anything at any point on her trip except for the parts of it that were directly related to the murder. And what parts did she hide? The parts directly related to the murder! She could have flashed every security camera she passed on the "public" part of her trip, but so what? She still went to great lengths to hide the murder detour. That part was covert, and it's the only part that matters.

Nurmi, please stop telling us that Travis was verbally abusive to Jodi and that she was loyal and submissive. In Willmott's opening statement, IIRC, she went on and on about how we know that Jodi killed Travis but we need to understand what made her to do it. Back then, we were all supposed to believe that it was Travis's abuse and violence that forced Jodi to kill him. So how come now, and for the whole trial actually, we're supposed to look at Travis' angry outbursts without considering what pushed him to such fury? Stop quoting Travis' insults without acknowledging the behavior on Jodi's part that precipitated them. He wasn't abusive! He was pissed off! And Travis was loyal. Jodi was a stalker. He tried to help her, she tried to possess him and/or ruin his life. Maybe you're using "loyal" here as a euphemism for "relentless?" And I know you what what "passive-aggressive" means, so I really don't get what you hope to gain by giving examples of apparently "passive" behavior on Jodi's part. Once again you seem to be deliberately ignoring the context. And I know you know the importance of context because you seem to be trying really hard to contextualize your own behavior "A.J." (After Jodi)!

If Jodi had wanted to kill Travis as soon as possible after she got to his house, I'm pretty sure she would have. And I'm pretty sure (i.e. 100% positive) she waited because she wanted to wait. It's not a huge stretch for me to at least imagine that power-mad, manipulative psychopaths enjoy knowing what's about to happen. It's about power, Nurmi, you know, that thing Jodi had all of during your dealings with her? There is zero connection between waiting and un-premeditated-ness. She was taking her own sweet time because She. Wanted. To.

If the side trip to Mesa was a spur of the moment decision in response to Travis begging and pleading for a visit, why did Jodi pack the photo DVD? You know, the scratched one, that he threw at her... which seems to have disappeared. Maybe the "DVD" is in the same place as the "rope."

Also please stop trying to put some sort of definitive label on the nature of their relationship. If you need a label, how about Frenemies With Benefits? What possible difference does it make? Why are you still factoring anything Jodi told you into your overall understanding of her, her crime, her motives? And your understanding of Travis??? I get that you had to become the Mary Lou Retton of mental gymnastics in order to present an even remotely plausible defense... but you can stop now. Please stop now. Focus on your health, your family, your dog. Given the material and the defendant you had to work with, this was an unwinnable case from the outset.

You no doubt have a huge amount of fascinating information about this case -- but you're diluting the potential impact of your book by including so much Kool-Aid, which -- I'm sorry to say -- is what it looks like. There are fanatics on both sides of this case, but there are reasonable people also who recognize that you and Jennifer don't deserve demonization any more than Juan and Travis deserve deification. We get that you were in a truly hellish situation, but now you seem to be on a self-righteous quest for loop holes, half truths, remote possibilities, and positive spin... anything to add any credence whatsoever to the myth that somehow Travis gave as good as he got right up to the second when what he got was savagely butchered. Travis' flaws, bad behavior, and worse decisions are not the story here, any more than Jodi's astonishing list of non-mitigating mitigators.

You got stuck defending the indefensible and Jodi was clearly determined to take as many people down with her as she possibly could. By writing this book, are you trying to distance yourself from her? It's not exactly working so far.

(snipped for space)

T-4-2, I applaud your post. Every word is right on the money, honey!

PLEASE email your post to Nurmi. I do believe the legal community would benefit a great deal if Nurmi were to be educated and your post should accomplish a certain degree of that even if he only understands a portion of it.
 
I'll bet she recorded the cat squeals separately, when no one was around... Then sutured them into the patchwork quilt of other recordings with TA.



Nothing against cats, but if that is what they think she sounded like, euthanization was in order. :gasp: She sounded like a sick cow bellowing. IMO
 
Um... the other two cases he was talking about were in AZ, so that's why Nurmi brought it up. I get that this is a victim friendly board, and I respect it, but some posts I wonder if you're even reading what's being written. Is it just oh no a defense attorney complained about having to defend JA? He's soooo whiny. The man probably thinks he'll die, so he's haunted. Let him get his story out. You don't have to buy it. It's not profiting JA.

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Please correct me if any of this is wrong (gleaned off net and very simplistic):

• Even Jodi was innocent until proven guilty
• She had the right to a vigorous and competent defense
• Failure on Nurmi's part to represent Jodi in the manner she saw fit could be grounds for a mistrial and/or malpractice suit
• Failure on Nurmi's part to do the following could be viewed as incompetence: question and cross-examine witnesses; present defenses; object to improper questions from the prosecutor and/or improper instructions from the judge; file appropriate motions with the court
• He had to present all possible defenses, even if he thought she was guilty
• He was not supposed to knowingly present false information or suborn perjury... but he could avoid learning specific information in order to be technically unaware of the truth (plausible deniability)
• He was required to defend Jodi according to her wishes, regardless of whether or not he agreed with her
...............

Any ideas about how Nurmi & Co. might have gone about mounting a vigorous defense that stopped short of becoming malicious and despicable? Given that he was "trapped with Ms. Arias," (stuck between a rock -- the law -- and an evil place), what could he have done to fulfill his obligations to Jodi without stooping to her level?

Just curious, not trying to start any fights and I certainly don't support anything that anyone on Jodi's defense team did. In the Scott Peterson trial, IIRC, his lawyers tried to defend him by poking holes in the circumstantial evidence and pointing out that the only thing the prosecution could really prove was that Scott was a horrible person.They never tried to malign Laci in any way... maybe they just knew better than to go after a dead pregnant woman (and her dead, unborn baby). Of course, they still lost and Scott is on death row, still maintaining his innocence. In Jodi's case, she must have realized that the State had proof that she killed Travis, but maybe there was some wiggle room on whether or not it was murder. She would reject outright any concessions of being a horrible person or that she had "snapped." In order to get the jury to believe it could have been self defense, she'd need Nurmi to cast her in the best possible light and cast Travis in the worst possible light. Nurmi could not change her mind. He was doomed from the start, but surely he could have made some better (or less awful) choices. Thoughts?
 
I don't think even he knows, hence why he wrote the book imo.

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Um... the other two cases he was talking about were in AZ, so that's why Nurmi brought it up. I get that this is a victim friendly board, and I respect it, but some posts I wonder if you're even reading what's being written. Is it just oh no a defense attorney complained about having to defend JA? He's soooo whiny. The man probably thinks he'll die, so he's haunted. Let him get his story out. You don't have to buy it. It's not profiting JA.

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I don't get that posters here are quite so black-and-white. Most have been articulating subtleties. I'm not familiar with AZ prison rosters, but I'm betting there are plenty of cases similar to Jodi's that were pursued as DP cases.
 
nurmi thinks he 'won'. imho i only see him #winning if he had actually convinced the jury that jodi killed travis in self defense, and that she really had soap opera amnesia. she was found guilty of premeditation, unusually cruel, and thanks to a few sketchy jurors she got 'lucky'. but if he wants to believe that's a win, so be it. i think they failed miserably and made fools of themselves.

i understand he had to go with her story, but he could have focused more on jodi's 'fragile' mental state than how much travis deserved to be butchered. and all the sex stuff (which i find he was the lawyer that was always talking about it), just made him look skeevy.
 
The nude photos and evidence probably suggested going into the sex stuff.

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Thank you so very much for all you have shared on this book YesorNo.

Based on YesorNo's postings so far IMO LKN is in damage control mode which includes varying levels of clarification, justification, intellectualization, and vilification.

There is so much I could say about all of this regarding LKN's motive and/or reasoning but I will only say this--He may have been limited in his choices while he was her attorney but he had a choice as to whether or not to write this book and as to what message he wanted to convey in writing it. My opinion is that he made a very bad choice all the way around to write this "book" in the way he has.

What I anticipate from his remaining books is evidence of more collateral and direct carnage wrought by this sorry, lying, butcher of a convict; a woman who is an absolute force of insidious destruction, harm and pain in every normal life that she touches.

What is saddest in all of this with LKN is that he is likely yet another innocent victim of this vile who has been left irrevocably damaged by having been in her path, which was not a choice of his making.
 
One other comment I would make is this---Given LKN's description of this obsessively image-conscious murderer with extraordinary manipulation abilities that are on par with those who achieve cult leader status, I am suspect of his total lack of insight on and/or acknowledgment of how she meticulously began the planning of Travis' brutal murder far in advance, as well as PLANTING and MANUFACTURING of evidence of a well thought out and detailed excuse for what she was going to do. Just sayin'...
 
I still don't get why the Hunter case wasn't DP. Maybe because there was no body? I don't know much about that case, just that it's a child, the mother was very neglectful and was charged.

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I still don't get why the Hunter case wasn't DP. Maybe because there was no body? I don't know much about that case, just that it's a child, the mother was very neglectful and was charged.

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I can't say with absolute certainty that I am correct but what I do know is that when it comes to a mother harming or killing her child it is often approached from the child abuse/child endangerment perspective. Which IMO is absolute bull$hit. If you research the many, many cases of children horribly abused, tortured, and killed at the hands of their parents you will find that it is extremely rare to have the DP on the table.

It is unclear to me what the rationale is behind this but whatever it is there is a need for reform/changes around the CJS and/or statutes regarding children killed by their parents. Maybe someone here knows what the reasons are that this happens on a national level.
 
What is saddest in all of this with LKN is that he is likely yet another innocent victim of this vile who has been left irrevocably damaged by having been in her path, which was not a choice of his making.

This is what I believe, too. Plus, I don't think Nurmi realizes the extent to which he's been "had".

Before the JA episode, from what I surmise from KN's book snippets and noted from someone who knew him in high school, he was B-ish intelligent, focused, and had normal middle class aspirations (e.g. family, kids, home, car). Now he seems to be a defensive and bitter mess, which has eclipsed what he had going for himself. Get back yourself, Nurmi!

Moreover, with a little self-observation, Nurmi might recognize that what he is experiencing is very much a version of what TA was experiencing, in that he is far from his values and outlook on the world, a person who is no longer himself. If only he'd figure this out, he'd likely have a lot more compassion for Travis and for himself. Instead, he's beating up both.

It's your client who's warped you, Nurmi, your client, not the facts of the case, not JM, not the media, not the rabid public, but how Jodi is. And how she is destroyed who you were and what you had.
 
Answering your (T-4-2) " Devil's Advocate: what were Nurmi's options?"

YOUR GIVENS (condensed).


" Even Jodi was innocent until proven guilty, She had the right to a vigorous and competent defense, Failure on Nurmi's part to represent Jodi in the manner she saw fit could be grounds for a mistrial and/or malpractice suit, Failure on Nurmi's part to do the following could be viewed as incompetence: question and cross-examine witnesses; present defenses; object to improper questions from the prosecutor and/or improper instructions from the judge; file appropriate motions with the court, He had to present all possible defenses, even if he thought she was guilty. He was required to defend Jodi according to her wishes, regardless of whether or not he agreed with her."

"• He was not supposed to (is completely prohibited from) knowingly present false information or suborn perjury... but he could avoid learning specific information in order to be technically unaware of the truth (plausible deniability)."

OR… and perhaps more pertinent to this case, he could take a neutral or merely suggestive datapoint and present it as collaborative “evidence” in support of what he suspected were lies, but which couldn’t be definitively disproved.



"Any ideas about how Nurmi & Co. might have gone about mounting a vigorous defense that stopped short of becoming malicious and despicable? What could he have done to fulfill his obligations to Jodi without stooping to her level? In Jodi's case, she realized that the State had proof that she killed Travis, but maybe there was some wiggle room on whether or not it was murder. She would reject outright any concessions of being a horrible person or that she had "snapped." In order to get the jury to believe it could have been self-defense, she'd need Nurmi to cast her in the best possible light and cast Travis in the worst possible light."

--------------------------------
Accepting your parameters, here is an alternative approach Nurmi could have taken (he went part way there in PP2, but his other tactics erased the storyline): Portray Travis as a decent man, loved by his friends, successful in business. BUT who had been horribly abused as a child, which affected him in many ways, including his ability to commit emotionally to any significant relationship. The closer he drew to anyone, the more conflicted he became, which gave rise to anger, directed both at himself and at the woman who was drawing him closer.

His ambivalence about JA made it impossible for her to know where she stood with him. She tried to give him what she thought he was asking from her, but increasingly, after each time they became intimate, Travis became angrier with himself, which made him push her away. She finally left Mesa, thinking that it was better for both of them if she moved far away, giving him time to understand what it was he wanted.

But she realized pretty quickly that moving away wasn’t going to help resolve the problems they had. Travis wrote in his journal and told friends about how lonely he was, how he thought it would be better after JA left, but it wasn’t. He kept reaching out to JA, had phone sex with her, sent her a tied to the tree fantasy.

When she didn’t respond by telling him she was willing to move back, Travis, in desperation about his age and his approaching exile from the singles ward, began an almost manic campaign to find a wife, and at the same time, to fill the gap left by his lover JA moving away.

He became increasingly depressed after JA left. In his despair he even reached back to his failed relationship with Lisa, and in escalating self-loathing, blamed himself for it not working out.

Adding to his stress, pushing him to a breaking point, was the fact that though most of his friends didn’t know it, he was in serious financial difficulty. He faced losing his house and even his job with PPL, given the brutal political games within the org that were being waged in April and May 2008. He was well aware and very frightened that he was on the verge of losing everything that he had worked so hard to achieve.

All JA had ever wanted was the best for Travis. The emotional, sexual, and physical abuse she had suffered as a child, though, made her vulnerable, as did the abusive relationships she had been in as an adult, with the exception of Darryl. She blamed herself when Travis became angry. She didn’t understand at the time that both of them were abuse victims, and that Travis had no more understanding of why he got angry at JA than she did.

She reached out to Ryan Burns, she tried to move on. On that trip in June, after she had made a number of calls to him because she felt terrible about the May 26 misunderstanding, he finally returned her calls and they talked long enough for both of them to feel OK about her stopping by on her way to a new life.

She arrived, he had waited up, they went to sleep. They had sex when they woke up, took pics, and she thought their sweet goodbye was going well. But nothing had changed. Having sex made Travis as angry as it ever did, even more, because he was furious with himself for giving in once again, even after he swore to himself that he wouldn’t, having been especially humiliated by the experience of Mimi’s father listening in to his transgressions, and in T’s mind, judging him harshly, finding him unworthy as a husband candidate for a good Mormon wife.

JA didn’t realize just how angry he had become. She was happily taking the pics he had asked her to shoot of him in the shower, when she dropped the camera. She tried to make a joke about being as clumsy as a 5 year old child, but her joke pushed Travis over the edge. HE snapped. He got up from that sitting position where he looks so angry and.. (blah blah blah).

-------------------
I see why you asked the question- as in, how much of her defense was Nurmi’s responsibility, really, given her insistence that she killed him in self-defense? One answer above, and in any case the question omits much of what was most putrid and offensive about Nurmi’s performance, including his personal, ugly, vituperative attacks on JM et al.

And here’s something else that IMO should be kept in mind about what Nurmi might have done if unrestrained by his client. He has written that his preferred strategy would have been to portray her as a troubled victim of abuse who snapped because of the emotional (and possibly physical) abuse inflicted by Travis the highly sexual, lying bad Mormon.

IMO it is disingenuous at best for Nurmi to claim that his client made him drag Travis through the mud. He’s made it plain he would have done so of his own volition, just minus that pedo stuff which he objected to NOT because of the pain that lie caused the many people who loved T, but because he thought the lie might harm his client.
 
What is saddest in all of this with LKN is that he is likely yet another innocent victim of this vile who has been left irrevocably damaged by having been in her path, which was not a choice of his making.

Yes and that's the exact message LKN wants the readers to know. That was and is his whole angle here. He wants people to understand he got stuck with her as a client and could not get away from her, despite trying. The rest though (his strategy and tactics), that's on him, ultimately. But no doubt about it: he was between a rock and hard place. Can anyone say they would ever want to be in his position? We can imagine ourselves in Juan's position, fighting for justice for a victim of a crime. But imagine being stuck with a JA type and you have no choice. Ugh.
 
snipped
I see why you asked the question- as in, how much of her defense was Nurmi’s responsibility, really, given her insistence that she killed him in self-defense? One answer above, and in any case the question omits much of what was most putrid and offensive about Nurmi’s performance, including his personal, ugly, vituperative attacks on JM et al.

And here’s something else that IMO should be kept in mind about what Nurmi might have done if unrestrained by his client. He has written that his preferred strategy would have been to portray her as a troubled victim of abuse who snapped because of the emotional (and possibly physical) abuse inflicted by Travis the highly sexual, lying bad Mormon.

IMO it is disingenuous at best for Nurmi to claim that his client made him drag Travis through the mud. He’s made it plain he would have done so of his own volition, just minus that pedo stuff which he objected to NOT because of the pain that lie caused the many people who loved T, but because he thought the lie might harm his client.

Thanks. Very good points. Nurmi claims he defended her the way he did because it was the only way he could keep her off death row. And he certainly implies mightily (possibly says outright, I may have missed it) that it's unfair and ignorant for people to judge him so harshly for doing his job in the only possible way in which he could do it.

I just can't help thinking that a good lawyer would have been able to see options. Isn't that what lawyers do? Nurmi settled on a terrible option and should be held accountable -- whether or not he was trapped with Ms. Arias.

I didn't mean for "my parameters" to be read as "my parameters," but rather just a very basic list of the minimum requirements for a defense attorney (which I had to look up since I really know very little about these things). I also didn't mean to leave any part of Nurmi's performance out of my "what could he have done differently?" question. Based on what he's saying now, he's putting it ALL on other people. Jodi made him do it. Juan Martinez made him do it. The judge made him do it. He takes no responsibility for his choices and behavior and doesn't even acknowledge that they were unnecessary and unnecessarily vile (gee, who does that sound like?) He sounds like he's trying to find some sort of "get out of jail free" card. He also sounds like he is fully aware of the magnitude of his errors of judgement and that is precisely why he's trying to shift the blame. (One of the reasons he might try to blame JM could be that -- in Nurmi's mind -- JM set the stage for a dirty fight and Nurmi had to fight dirty in return. JM was certainly very harsh and aggressive, but he wasn't dirty. Nurmi came off looking harsh, aggressive, and dirty... and in more than one sense of the word).

He had options! You point out some good ones. First and foremost there was NO need for him to "guild the lily." (Not only present Jodi's defense but also dump in truckload after truckload of his own ugly behavior.) He went way over and above the call of duty and destroyed his reputation in the process (in a cut-off-his-nose-to-spite-his-face sort of way). Surely with the state of Arizona's bank account at his disposal, he had access to jury/trial consultants whom he could have, well, consulted. They would have been able to give him some options.

Hmm... I just thought of Jodi's request for a plea deal, the one in which she threatens (barely veiled in legalese) to make everyone really sorry if she's tried for first degree murder. Do you suppose Nurmi's behavior was in any way directed at the judge for not letting him withdraw... like a whiny kid who intentionally botches his chores so that his parents stop making him do chores?
 

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