UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Nikynoo]

If he had diabetes and had a serious foot injury I think he would be sent straight to hospital for check ups immediately after being apprehended.

I don't doubt that he was seen by a doctor at the station upon arrest. IIRC he was struggling to walk on his first appearance at court.

 

[Pidgy]

Any sympathetic feelings I had are quickly diminishing in the face of reading about today in court.Goodness only knows how the defence are going to deal with this .

Which parts of today's evidence in particular?
I haven't read all the reports, but the worst thing I've seen for the defence has been MG asking "What's the big deal?"

 

[bobbymkii]

That's the thing that kinda confuses me though, because from social services reports, they've lived in tents and caravans and such before. Hell they've done it with a newborn baby before. That's how she got at least one kid taken off her.

You'd think they would have picked up a bit of experience on living and feeding themselves outdoors and without the usual facilities.

For all this talk about them living "off-grid" I've been wondering if they have ever lived on-grid!

 

[Nikynoo]

I think the question we still don't have an answer to, but hopefully will, is if he baby had died in early January as CM claimed, then why when they found her body on 1st March do they believe she had only been dead for a few weeks.

January to March feels like a REALLY long time IMO.

It's more than a months difference, which you'd think would be significant in terms of awful things we don't really want to get into.

seven and a half weeks between 9th January and 1st March. I've looked up the definition of several and its not clear, (e.g. more than 3 but less than 10) so i suppose its subjective.

 

[Pidgy]

That's the thing that kinda confuses me though, because from social services reports, they've lived in tents and caravans and such before. Hell they've done it with a newborn baby before. That's how she got at least one kid taken off her.

You'd think they would have picked up a bit of experience on living and feeding themselves outdoors and without the usual facilities.

They may have lived on campsites with at least OK facilities, and had a vehicle and no problems with money or being wanted by the police for something. Part-time "new age" travellers, e.g. during summer months. (Sorry about saying "new age" - just using it to mean travellers who aren't from Romany or Irish Traveller backgrounds.) There is "off-grid", and then there's really off-grid.

 

[Pidgy]

seven and a half weeks between 9th January and 1st March. I've looked up the definition of several and its not clear, (e.g. more than 3 but less than 10) so i suppose its subjective.

The definition of the word is subjective, but the pathologist should be able to say that in his opinion there is 95% probability the baby was born after X date, and 95% that she was born before Y date. E.g. almost definitely (defined as above) between this week in 2023 and this other week in 2024. Since he can't say the physical cause of death, I think the defence will probably want him to come to court.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The definition of the word is subjective, but the pathologist should be able to say that in his opinion there is 95% probability the baby was born after X date, and 95% that she was born before Y date. E.g. almost definitely (defined as above) between this week in 2023 and this other week in 2024. Since he can't say the physical cause of death, I think the defence will probably want him to come to court.

I wonder if they could tell by hair strand / nail analysis and other clues as to how long the baby had been born and lived?

 

[Alyce]

DM have just put up their article with the video clips - there is slightly more footage at the beginning of this clip than the previous videos

Moment Constance Marten and partner refuse to tell cops where baby is

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Cardgame]

The definition of the word is subjective, but the pathologist should be able to say that in his opinion there is 95% probability the baby was born after X date, and 95% that she was born before Y date. E.g. almost definitely (defined as above) between this week in 2023 and this other week in 2024. Since he can't say the physical cause of death, I think the defence will probably want him to come to court.

But also usefully, they should be able to tell for how long the baby had been dead.

My uneducated speculation is that there's a huge difference between three weeks and seven and a half weeks.

But that might not be true.

 

[Cardgame]

They may have lived on campsites with at least OK facilities, and had a vehicle and no problems with money or being wanted by the police for something. Part-time "new age" travellers, e.g. during summer months. (Sorry about saying "new age" - just using it to mean travellers who aren't from Romany or Irish Traveller backgrounds.) There is "off-grid", and then there's really off-grid.

And usually they had access to vast sums of cash. And airbnbs. And takeaways. And taxis.

 

[Nikynoo]

The definition of the word is subjective, but the pathologist should be able to say that in his opinion there is 95% probability the baby was born after X date, and 95% that she was born before Y date. E.g. almost definitely (defined as above) between this week in 2023 and this other week in 2024. Since he can't say the physical cause of death, I think the defence will probably want him to come to court.

I think it more likely that pathology will be able to determine a window for time of death, but perhaps I’ve watched too many silent witness episodes.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think it more likely that pathology will be able to determine a window for time of death, but perhaps I’ve watched too many silent witness episodes.

I suspect the body being so severely disturbed, moved around into a variety of conditions and different temperatures would really hamper the accuracy. Also shows like SW really do encourage us all to believe things that aren't exactly how it's done in real life, sadly raising expectations!

 

[Cardgame]

Which parts of today's evidence in particular?
I haven't read all the reports, but the worst thing I've seen for the defence has been MG asking "What's the big deal?"

I think that was in response to them asking if the child was dead tho.

If it was that, and if that's accurate, then it's a pretty callous retort, by any standard.

 

[Obergine]

I think that was in response to them asking if the child was dead tho.

If it was that, and if that's accurate, then it's a pretty callous retort, by any standard.

Perhaps he was trying to pretend he wasn't MG and knew nothing, so was asking 'What's the big deal?' As in "'What's the big deal about this baby?' That I know nothing about honest Guv' . I can't believe they went through everything thing they went through in callous disregard... chaotic incompetence yes.

 

[Zuleika]

Which parts of today's evidence in particular?
I haven't read all the reports, but the worst thing I've seen for the defence has been MG asking "What's the big deal?"

I thought the same as you when I read what he said and there was me not thinking all that badly if him , she dragging him from pillar to post ,when he could have got them a lift when the car caught fire for example but she said they were alright .

 

[Twittens]

Which parts of today's evidence in particular?
I haven't read all the reports, but the worst thing I've seen for the defence has been MG asking "What's the big deal?"

I haven't seen direct footage of this (if it's even available) so perhaps I'll change my mind if I do, but I interpret "What's the big deal?" as being a general response to being surrounded by police, separated from CM, and forced to the ground - a kind of pretence that he has no idea what's going on to make the police think they might have the wrong person - rather than a direct response to the question about the child, which he may not even have heard or may have taken a few moments to register. It seems like a situation where everything happened very fast and people were talking across each other.

jmoo

 

[Alyce]

PC Matthew Colburn helped handcuff Gordon and asked repeatedly where the child was, as the defendant demanded food and drink.
On being given ginger beer, chicken and crisps the defendant asked for mayonnaise to go with it.

Pc Colburn was heard to say: 'I'm not going to make you a sandwich, we've got a child to find.'

Gordon said he did not 'want to talk' and asked why finding the baby was the 'bigger deal'.

The officer replied: 'We need to potentially save a life. That's the number one priority.
It may not be your priority, but it's everyone else's priority.'

The officer told Gordon he was concerned there was a 'baby potentially on its own'- if we don't find the child,
your child might die, and that's the most important thing right here, right now.'
the defendant was 'more interested in eating'.

Moment Constance Marten and partner refuse to tell cops where baby is

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[dotr]

 

[porkypies]

It's hard not to conclude that if there had been no highly-publicised manhunt they would have had access to money, safe accommodation and food, and the baby would have been fine. That is assuming the baby was healthy to begin with, sadly some babies die through no fault of anyone.

I can't get to this conclusion at all.
Given their record with four previous children/babies, the only way this fifth baby would have been fine would have been if she had been removed from them very quickly, I can't see that there was a moment to spare.

 

[Twittens]

PC Matthew Colburn helped handcuff Gordon and asked repeatedly where the child was, as the defendant demanded food and drink.
On being given ginger beer, chicken and crisps the defendant asked for mayonnaise to go with it.

Pc Colburn was heard to say: 'I'm not going to make you a sandwich, we've got a child to find.'

Gordon said he did not 'want to talk' and asked why finding the baby was the 'bigger deal'.

The officer replied: 'We need to potentially save a life. That's the number one priority.
It may not be your priority, but it's everyone else's priority.'

The officer told Gordon he was concerned there was a 'baby potentially on its own'- if we don't find the child,
your child might die, and that's the most important thing right here, right now.'
the defendant was 'more interested in eating'.

Moment Constance Marten and partner refuse to tell cops where baby is

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oh, well, what can I say to that. For some reason it's the mayonnaise that really makes me see red.