CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #23
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If the killer(s) made Barry walk to the place where he was strangled , with perhaps a large zip tie around his neck, which they removed and took with them, after killing him, it would have made it easier to handle his body. The second coroner also stated that their hands had been bound, and the first coroner must have suspected as much, because he saved the skin from the wrists. Likely they were both forced to walk a certain distance with their hands bound. Also, I suspect that maybe Honey's body was moved into the final position by dragging it, as the scuff mark evidence suggests. It would be interesting to know if they found any scuff marks in the carpet upstairs, or on the stairs. If two killers were in the house when she was killed, one would think they could carry the body. The drag marks suggest to me that perhaps there was only one killer. The sight of Honey's body would have been terrifying, and likely would have made Barry harder to control, but maybe he did have to step over her body. How awful, unless they put a hood over his head, and just told him to step over something. There was a small pool of blood under Honey's body. I think it was speculated that it could have been blood from her facial injuries. In order for that to have time to run down, and pool, I think she must have been killed first, and was hung before Barry was killed. The killer(s) did not want to waste any time, and wanted to be out of the house as soon as possible. We do not know how long the NW was apparently in the house, but I think KD said it was about an hour. IMO
Lexiintoronto
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You hit on something I hadn’t considered. Why possibly drag Honey if there was more than one person? I cannot figure out the staging or logic in the steps the killer or killers took in the home. I just see puzzle pieces.
Especially spending more time than necessary if KD is right the WM left the home around 10:00pm.
I may be wrong but i thought at the press conference the police said they died between 9 pm and midnight.
Lexiintoronto
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I’m not sure if the police ever directly gave a time range to the public other than saying they died on Wednesday evening after arriving home. KD first said the police believed they died between 9-12, iirc, but then updated it a couple of times. His latest timeframe is that they died between 8:00-10:00. (“ They were murdered between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m. on Dec. 13.”).
He has said the WM suspect was at the home until at least 10:00.
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Perhaps, the killer or killers went to great efforts to stage the scene to look like a murder/suicide and this 'staging' included fabricating trace evidence that made it look like Honey had been dragged while suppressing any evidence of the movements of the killer or killers and/or Barry Sherman. This amplifies why any scuff and drag marks purported to be found at the scene remain factually inconclusive.
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That 9 PM - midnight estimation is likely based on the analysis of the ADT Security Times.
Honey Sherman very likely deactivated the alarm close to 9 PM on December 13, 2017, when she arrived home. The actual time is redacted in the ITOs.
The Shermans would typically activate the alarm (in-home mode) before retiring for the night, between 11 and midnight. On December 13, 2017 the alarm was not activated.
Lexiintoronto
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Again. KD of the Toronto Star has said he has seen the crime scene photos and he wrote, and said, that he saw drag marks. They were linked to Honey’s shoes. One of his named sources is a pathologist linked to the case.
Writing that is ‘factually inconclusive’ is incorrect unless you can cite a MSM source that says otherwise.
We’ve quoted what he wrote and linked the source.
Fwiw..
''The drag marks on the pool room floor, which had not been cleaned for some time, allude to how the Sherman’s reached the pool railing. This doesn’t discount Donovan’s suggestion that Barry Sherman was psychologically tortured and walked to the scene and his wife, but it does cast doubt on a multi-person team.''
www.thestar.com
''Walking into the swimming pool room there is a narrow tiled walkway with a wall on the left and the swimming pool on the right.
In the photos I have seen there are what appear to be faint drag marks on the tiled floors, possibly from the heels of one of the Shermans’ shoes, which end at the bodies. From the police documents, we know that the Sherman cleaning staff had not visited the room for three weeks, so the faint marks were likely made in dust on the floor.''
The Star saw the Sherman crime-scene and autopsy photos. How could a pathologist and police call it a murder-suicide?
Photos, notes raise new questions about how investigators made their mistaken determination in the Barry and Honey Sherman case.
In the photos I have seen there are what appear to be faint drag marks on the tiled floors, possibly from the heels of one of the Shermans’ shoes, which end at the bodies. From the police documents, we know that the Sherman cleaning staff had not visited the room for three weeks, so the faint marks were likely made in dust on the floor.''
Lexiintoronto
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FWIW- I like reading theories about the crime, but I personally believe they should be based on what has been reported by respected media or in the court documents. I think we do that 99.9% of the time here, imo.
I can recall and assemble details about the case but when it comes to walking in the killer’s shoes I’m unable to. Why the pool room? Why in that manner? Why spend extra time in the home if your goal is to kill them and get away with it? Who does something like this? Why at all?
I can recall and assemble details about the case but when it comes to walking in the killer’s shoes I’m unable to. Why the pool room? Why in that manner? Why spend extra time in the home if your goal is to kill them and get away with it? Who does something like this? Why at all?
FromGermany1
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Why weren't blood stains discovered along the exact way of the drag marks, if HS had injuries to her face and if the bleeding was enough to build a pool at the last place, her head was positioned (before putting up her body to the railing)? Her clothing in front was clean, as far as I remember, so she couldn't have been bleeding in a sitting position but before sitting.
To be ironic: how considerate of the killer using the only uncleaned room in the home (despite showings to potencial buyers) for the double-murder of the poor owners.
Pure speculation on my part however I have always wondered if they were posed so the killers could take a photo or a video to provide to the person(s) who hired them - like “I want to hear them say they are sorry”. Alternately, could it be possible that the Shermans were propped up alive and subjected to some sort of questioning? It has been said many times that if we could solve the “why” behind the staging, we’d be well on the way to solving who did this.
fadedglitter
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It wasn’t a “pool of blood”. From The Star saw the Sherman crime-scene and autopsy photos. How could a pathologist and police call it a murder-suicide?
On the pool railing near where Honey’s belt is tied there is a small smear of blood. There is also a smear of blood on the breast of a blue vest she is wearing. The information I have seen does not say whose blood it is.
Some media reports have said that Honey’s face looked like she was the victim of a severe beating. That is not the case. There is a mark on one cheek, but it is minor. There is blood on her face, but it appears to have come from her nose as a result of the strangulation that killed her.
I have also wondered whether a photo was involved. Propping up the bodies does not make a lot of sense unless it is to create a “proof of death” image. Most murderers would leave the bodies where they fell. A person who was trying to use the pool room to hide the bodies would have tossed them into the covered pool and replaced the cover.
On the pool railing near where Honey’s belt is tied there is a small smear of blood. There is also a smear of blood on the breast of a blue vest she is wearing. The information I have seen does not say whose blood it is.
Some media reports have said that Honey’s face looked like she was the victim of a severe beating. That is not the case. There is a mark on one cheek, but it is minor. There is blood on her face, but it appears to have come from her nose as a result of the strangulation that killed her.
I have also wondered whether a photo was involved. Propping up the bodies does not make a lot of sense unless it is to create a “proof of death” image. Most murderers would leave the bodies where they fell. A person who was trying to use the pool room to hide the bodies would have tossed them into the covered pool and replaced the cover.
Pool room because it was furthest away from the general living area or any area used by people living or working in the house. There would be a longer time before they were found.
Spending longer time in the home than you would think a hired hit man/person would want or need to ?
This to me shows that this was someone close to the family. I think there was a search of the home for wills or something that could be related to the estate.
Lexiintoronto
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There are a number of POIs. I’ve wondered if the experts can see a pattern of behaviour in any of them that is also reflected in the crime scene.
Lexiintoronto
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If it was someone close to them maybe they picked a room where the police wouldn’t find any biological evidence of them.
Window21
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All just speculation on my part.
If this was a hired hit, then we all know the "hit man" would be bold and brazen. He/she would not have any issues hanging out in the house for any amount of time. Also, if it was a hit, I feel they were followed for days, maybe weeks. The killer knew the Shermans routines and every move they made. The pool room is secluded and it would buy the killer hours and in this case a couple days to leave the city and even the province.
Scenario 2
If this killer is a family member or close friend then I feel pretty much the same as my first scenario. They would have been let in by Honey, or they let them self in and waited for her. It would not be a shock if she came home and her child or relative was there and then she was killed almost immediately. As far as the positing of the bodies I honestly feel it was a last "f@#K you" to the Shermans and plus a bit of shock value as well.
Also, we had a pandemic in 2020 - 2022. We all know how strict our lockdowns were here in Ontario. I often wonder if the police got anything accomplished at all in them 2 years. Remember how hard it was for us regular people just to go to the bank, do home repairs or frankly just get anything done, let alone investigate a double murder. All the health care was jammed up and all the labs across the country was focused on COVID testing. We were all stuck in our homes and everyone was working from home. Many people died and I often wonder if some of the key players in this murder are even still with us.
This is all JMO, all speculation.
If this was a hired hit, then we all know the "hit man" would be bold and brazen. He/she would not have any issues hanging out in the house for any amount of time. Also, if it was a hit, I feel they were followed for days, maybe weeks. The killer knew the Shermans routines and every move they made. The pool room is secluded and it would buy the killer hours and in this case a couple days to leave the city and even the province.
Scenario 2
If this killer is a family member or close friend then I feel pretty much the same as my first scenario. They would have been let in by Honey, or they let them self in and waited for her. It would not be a shock if she came home and her child or relative was there and then she was killed almost immediately. As far as the positing of the bodies I honestly feel it was a last "f@#K you" to the Shermans and plus a bit of shock value as well.
Also, we had a pandemic in 2020 - 2022. We all know how strict our lockdowns were here in Ontario. I often wonder if the police got anything accomplished at all in them 2 years. Remember how hard it was for us regular people just to go to the bank, do home repairs or frankly just get anything done, let alone investigate a double murder. All the health care was jammed up and all the labs across the country was focused on COVID testing. We were all stuck in our homes and everyone was working from home. Many people died and I often wonder if some of the key players in this murder are even still with us.
This is all JMO, all speculation.
I agree. The 'why place the Sherman's in the pool room' is most interesting question. One would think if you wanted to kill two people and have it look like a murder-suicide, having them poisoned together or shot with a gun would be more believable. Police would arrive, see what most of us was a typical murder suicide scene and likely say, 'case closed'.
So the killers went to a lot of trouble by moving bodies, strangulation, and setting the whole staging scene up. To me the pool room activities were not an attempt to confuse the TPS, but rather for some other reason.
Now I believe we can assume, that if the killer(s) were professionals they would only have done the staging at the request of their employer.
If they were not professionals, but the ones who wanted the Sherman's dead, definitely the staging is extremely symbolic.
If we can discern what the staging and the processes that were required, we can likely understand what the perpetrators' motivation, and quite possible who they were.
So the questions are:
Why strangulation?
Why physically hang the bodies?
Why in the Pool room?
Is the symbolism, related to Pharma; Business and Investments: Religion; Family Matters and Relationships; or non-Family Matters and Relationships.
Answer these questions, and you will have a good idea whodunit.
Or was the staging a diversion to confuse everybody?
MerlinFalcon
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I also wonder about the pool room. When they were first found, I thought it was carbon monoxide poisoning. I wonder if the police thought the same at first when they considered it m/s, just like one of their friends did in the Crave series. That may have been part of the plan and the killer(s) almost got away with it.
Or a room where police would find a lot of biological evidence that could be explained away?