CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #23

[Warwick1991]

Actually everyone involved in the building of 50 OCR and was sued have gone on to have very successful business. I see there signs and trucks etc all over the city of Toronto.

Which companies? Do they still have the same owners? Do you know if their insurance rates rose?

 

[FPoulet]

IMO, the fact the children insisted it had to be murder, kind of rules them out for me - why go through all that staging, just to vehemently deny it? I find KD's suspicions (as I've heard them reported), quite mystifying.

I see it another way: what might cast suspicions away from murderer(s) more than the murderer(s) themselves insisting that it must be investigated as a murder. If the murderer insisted it were suicide when it obviously was not — that would enhance suspicions on him/her.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I see it another way: what might cast suspicions away from murderer(s) more than the murderer(s) themselves insisting that it must be investigated as a murder. If the murderer insisted it were suicide when it obviously was not — that would enhance suspicions on him/her.

I had wondered how much the police initially shared with the heirs. Did professionals around them point out m/s was unlikely based on how the Shermans were positioned, making the belts possibly ineffective as the ligatures used?

I found this quote:

‘Information related to the Sherman autopsies was kept from the family, according to Sherman son Jonathon. “We did not know about the little bone,” he told the Star in an interview.

The police apparently did not share very much information and Jonathon told the Star that the family’s team of private investigators decided it was better that the Sherman family only knew what was in the public domain relating to the case. He said their private team only told them “we know the police are wrong, the suicide thing is bulls--t.” ’
(Paywalled article).

I think information got to them, though. I don’t think the information would be leaked to KD before they knew about it, imo. But also they’re all experts involved and there’s likely a lot of strategic ways they’re releasing information that I cannot fathom.

 

[dotr]

Wondering if in certain (high profile?) cases, the LE who leads the investigation and /or does the interviews, are chosen specifically to mirror the ethnic/religious/language backgrounds of the victims and poi, in order to possibly glean more info from them and the cooperation from the LE in the country of origin?
Thinking of the famous interview of R. Williams. imo, speculation.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Wondering if in certain (high profile?) cases, the LE who leads the investigation and /or does the interviews, are chosen specifically to mirror the ethnic/religious/language backgrounds of the victims and poi, in order to possibly glean more info from them and the cooperation from the LE in the country of origin?
Thinking of the famous interview of R. Williams. imo, speculation.

That’s an interesting thought, can you expand on it?

I remember some analysis of that interview. The Detective called Russell by his first name, not his military title as usual, to establish that his position had no power in that room. He also mirrored his body language to show he was in sync with him.

I had have the impression that Detective Yim is likely precise and very intelligent, so he’s a great match for KD. I think what appear to be errors in the affidavits are intentional. Maybe he believes the POIs he has in mind believe they’re smarter than everyone, as some have suggested. So he may be playing into that, imo.

 

[Cedars]

I see it another way: what might cast suspicions away from murderer(s) more than the murderer(s) themselves insisting that it must be investigated as a murder. If the murderer insisted it were suicide when it obviously was not — that would enhance suspicions on him/her.

I guess that would be ultimate form of gaslighting!

IMO, that is a not consistent with real human behaviour.

To murder your parents is one level of severe psychological disturbance, too cooly arrange for it to appear as suicide is an even higher level of pathological deceptiveness. To then try to escape blame by standing outside your own extremely pathological mental state, and trying to act like a 'normal' person would act...IMO only a fictional Jekyll and Hyde character could do that, not a real human.

JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I guess that would be ultimate form of gaslighting!

IMO, that is a not consistent with real human behaviour.

To murder your parents is one level of severe psychological disturbance, too cooly arrange for it to appear as suicide is an even higher level of pathological deceptiveness. To then try to escape blame by standing outside your own extremely pathological mental state, and trying to act like a 'normal' person would act...IMO only a fictional Jekyll and Hyde character could do that, not a real human.

JMO

In general, psychopaths can mimic normal behaviour when needed.

 

[dotr]

That’s an interesting thought, can you expand on it?

I remember some analysis of that interview. The Detective called Russell by his first name, not his military title as usual, to establish that his position had no power in that room. He also mirrored his body language to show he was in sync with him.

I had have the impression that Detective Yim is likely precise and very intelligent, so he’s a great match for KD. I think what appear to be errors in the affidavits are intentional. Maybe he believes the POIs he has in mind believe they’re smarter than everyone, as some have suggested. So he may be playing into that, imo.

Barry and Honey Sherman homicide detectives seek information in 5 countries

Detective Constable Dennis Yim would not name the countries in court, saying it would alert the killer or killers that police are on to them.

www.thestar.com

2022 rbbm,
''Yim testified that he may soon ask for information from three other countries that are not part of the MLAT agreement. In those cases, with no set process, he is relying on relationships between justice officials in Canada and the foreign jurisdiction. Yim refused to identify those countries. He said other officers with experience in these non-treaty requests have told him they are sometimes refused because the jurisdiction is not “obligated” to provide information. “So you can ask, but you may or may not receive anything,” Yim told the court.

During the hearing, Yim was asked whether it was unusual for a Toronto homicide detective to be assigned full-time to one case for five years. Yim said it is highly unusual, but added, “I wouldn’t consider this case in particular a normal case” due to the “scope and scale” of the probe. Yim said that he has daily chats with Det. Sgt. Brandon Price, the lead investigator on the Sherman file. Price works on other homicide cases as well, court heard.''

 

[branmuffin]

Barry and Honey Sherman homicide detectives seek information in 5 countries

Detective Constable Dennis Yim would not name the countries in court, saying it would alert the killer or killers that police are on to them.

www.thestar.com

2022 rbbm,
''Yim testified that he may soon ask for information from three other countries that are not part of the MLAT agreement. In those cases, with no set process, he is relying on relationships between justice officials in Canada and the foreign jurisdiction. Yim refused to identify those countries. He said other officers with experience in these non-treaty requests have told him they are sometimes refused because the jurisdiction is not “obligated” to provide information. “So you can ask, but you may or may not receive anything,” Yim told the court.

During the hearing, Yim was asked whether it was unusual for a Toronto homicide detective to be assigned full-time to one case for five years. Yim said it is highly unusual, but added, “I wouldn’t consider this case in particular a normal case” due to the “scope and scale” of the probe. Yim said that he has daily chats with Det. Sgt. Brandon Price, the lead investigator on the Sherman file. Price works on other homicide cases as well, court heard.''

There's more countries that Canada doesn't have treaties with than those they do. Even our extradition treaties don't always pan out, for either party since Canada will not extradite to a country that has the death penalty.

 

[ldlager]

That’s an interesting thought, can you expand on it?

I remember some analysis of that interview. The Detective called Russell by his first name, not his military title as usual, to establish that his position had no power in that room. He also mirrored his body language to show he was in sync with him.

I had have the impression that Detective Yim is likely precise and very intelligent, so he’s a great match for KD. I think what appear to be errors in the affidavits are intentional. Maybe he believes the POIs he has in mind believe they’re smarter than everyone, as some have suggested. So he may be playing into that, imo.

Can a police officer legally, or anyone in fact, swear an affidavit knowing full well that there are errors in it?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Can a police officer legally, or anyone in fact, swear an affidavit knowing full well that there are errors in it?

That’s a great question. No idea.

Detective Yim’s affidavits are summaries of witnesses statements taken by other officers. So maybe they or the witnesses made the errors and Detective Yim has to include them as is. —- Just a guess..or there’s something completely different going on.

We know two different times are given for when CB the gardener arrived at the home, 11:00 and 11:30. Her timing is important because right after she arrived she went downstairs to confirm the condition of the Shermans and she called 911.

KD initially wrote in an article and his book that there was a 90 minute delay in calling 911. But he eventually found out they likely called within minutes. First responders were dispatched at around 11:45.

 

[Sphinx]

I guess that would be ultimate form of gaslighting!

IMO, that is a not consistent with real human behaviour.

To murder your parents is one level of severe psychological disturbance, too cooly arrange for it to appear as suicide is an even higher level of pathological deceptiveness. To then try to escape blame by standing outside your own extremely pathological mental state, and trying to act like a 'normal' person would act...IMO only a fictional Jekyll and Hyde character could do that, not a real human.

JMO

I understand your points, but you cannot assume that the murderer who planned this is normal in any way, although he/she may have a good facade, if this person is a psychopath, as I strongly suspect, then all bets are off where normal morals and emotions are concerned. Psychopaths are not human in the way you and I are, so it is very hard for us to understand them, but I studied psychology in university, as well as doing research later for some psychiatrists, and having read a good deal about them, I do understand that they cannot be seen as normal humans at all, more like intelligent ruthless predators, who have killer instincts and a level of selfishness, and feelings of superiority, that goes beyond the worst animal predator you can think of. IMO

 

[newclues]

There's more countries that Canada doesn't have treaties with than those they do. Even our extradition treaties don't always pan out, for either party since Canada will not extradite to a country that has the death penalty.

They were living in a Jewish-Chinese-Russian-Iranian neighborhood. Israel, China, Russia and Iran all have very active secret services that are very capable of foreign assassinations. China-Russia-Iran are somewhat allies of each other. Thus, IMO starting with these three may be a way to go if any foreign actor was involved.

 

[newclues]

I understand your points, but you cannot assume that the murderer who planned this is normal in any way, although he/she may have a good facade, if this person is a psychopath, as I strongly suspect, then all bets are off where normal morals and emotions are concerned. Psychopaths are not human in the way you and I are, so it is very hard for us to understand them, but I studied psychology in university, as well as doing research later for some psychiatrists, and having read a good deal about them, I do understand that they cannot be seen as normal humans at all, more like intelligent ruthless predators, who have killer instincts and a level of selfishness, and feelings of superiority, that goes beyond the worst animal predator you can think of. IMO

IMO. If the NW really had a limp or other such foot/leg condition as is seen in the video, then they would probably have had to have been well-trained in order to kill two people and to drag and to stage their bodies while having such an injury from possibly some war or accident so that they have not let it interfere with any such mercenary assassinations before, then and/or afterwards.

 

[branmuffin]

They were living in a Jewish-Chinese-Russian-Iranian neighborhood. Israel, China, Russia and Iran all have very active secret services that are very capable of foreign assassinations. China-Russia-Iran are somewhat allies of each other. Thus, IMO starting with these three may be a way to go if any foreign actor was involved.

Don't leave out Israel.

 

[newclues]

Can a police officer legally, or anyone in fact, swear an affidavit knowing full well that there are errors in it?

They should instead redact things more rather than leaving any errors. There are several contradictory statements that have been found in which both cannot be correct and/or true. If we knew which was true, it would help in determining who was lying so that they can be further investigated.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

They should instead redact things more rather than leaving any errors. There are several contradictory statements that have been found in which both cannot be correct and/or true. If we knew which was true, it would help in determining who was lying so that they can be further investigated.

I think there are lies made by three witnesses, but it’s imo.

I don’t think the errors we can obviously see mean someone is lying, imo. We’re reading the summaries written by officers, not the verbatim statements of witnesses.

For example, Gardner CB had to have arrived around 11:30 based on other witness accounts and the times first responders were dispatched at around 11:45. So there’s an error there that may have been a mistake in CB’s first recollection, typo, or error in an officer’s account.

The other errors we’ve found are small. Names spelled incorrectly, Noah and Kaelen misidentified in one section, but Kaelen is clearly identified correctly in another section.

 

[Cedars]

I understand your points, but you cannot assume that the murderer who planned this is normal in any way, although he/she may have a good facade, if this person is a psychopath, as I strongly suspect, then all bets are off where normal morals and emotions are concerned. Psychopaths are not human in the way you and I are, so it is very hard for us to understand them, but I studied psychology in university, as well as doing research later for some psychiatrists, and having read a good deal about them, I do understand that they cannot be seen as normal humans at all, more like intelligent ruthless predators, who have killer instincts and a level of selfishness, and feelings of superiority, that goes beyond the worst animal predator you can think of. IMO

Thank you, I do agree that psuchopaths are different and can act normal in the context of ordinary life, where no one expects other people to be psychopathic.

However, homocide detectives know all about psychopaths. IMO, they would be looking for one in investigating this specific case. And psychopaths, narcissists, et al, do give themselves away during hours of videotaped questioning, which IMO anyone with a strong motive to commit this crime, would have been subjected to.

However, perhaps we are talking about a combination Hannibal Lecter, James Bond, and (fill in the blank of your favorite fictional villains/murder scenario)

JMO

 

[FPoulet]

I guess that would be ultimate form of gaslighting!

IMO, that is a not consistent with real human behaviour.

To murder your parents is one level of severe psychological disturbance, too cooly arrange for it to appear as suicide is an even higher level of pathological deceptiveness. To then try to escape blame by standing outside your own extremely pathological mental state, and trying to act like a 'normal' person would act...IMO only a fictional Jekyll and Hyde character could do that, not a real human.

JMO

I disagree. There are many, many murders where the murderer is leading the charge to “find” the murderer and/or “find” the body. Think, e.g., of the many victims of domestic violence where the guilty partner is the first to call 911 to report them missing, is the first to make tearful pleas for their partner’s return, is on the frontline of searches and, often, is the one who locates the body. Throughout these situations, police do not advertise that the spouse is a clear suspect. But I’m sure the spouse is a main suspect from the start. Bottom line: we have no real idea what the police know or don’t know in this case, or when they knew it, or who they suspect, and neither does the family. MOO.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

dbm