Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

[susiQ]

Some things that are really puzzling to me that may not be answered
- RA knew he had been seen by three girls, so much so that he came forward to the CO, but proceeded with a murder not too far away
- RA kept his car and gun and stayed in Delphi, working in a customer facing role, even after the video came out
- The likely murderer walked along the road W300 after the murders (and was seen) rather than moving hidden through the wooded areas

RSBM
And these are the minor reasons why I am doubtful RA committed these murders. With all the evil goings on down there in Delphi and area that we cannot bring here, as well as the evidence documented in the FM, I am confident that the D will attempt to expose it all during trial, provided JG allows it into evidence. There’s the crux of it. A jury only has what the judge allows into evidence. If she is biased against the D, the jury will not hear all there is to hear to make a well informed decision. This type of manipulation is nothing new. I hope JG is above pettiness. The truth NEEDS to come out. These people NEED to be stopped. JMHO

 

[Boxer]

RSBM
And these are the minor reasons why I am doubtful RA committed these murders. With all the evil goings on down there in Delphi and area that we cannot bring here, as well as the evidence documented in the FM, I am confident that the D will attempt to expose it all during trial, provided JG allows it into evidence. There’s the crux of it. A jury only has what the judge allows into evidence. If she is biased against the D, the jury will not hear all there is to hear to make a well informed decision. This type of manipulation is nothing new. I hope JG is above pettiness. The truth NEEDS to come out. These people NEED to be stopped. JMHO

The jury will hear that he passed the girls by FB.
MOO What is most relevant to the case are RAs movements, corroberation of these movements.
His gun matches the print in BGs jacket and the cycled round at the crime scene.
That Indiana has turned out to be a mess of criminality is surprising but I dont think its directly relevant.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Some of the testimony that I think is going to be valuable (if defence run with Odinist theory);
- Todd Click - investigated and believes there is evidence against a group of people as alternative suspects - sounds like more drug related than Odinist from Click’s perspective to me (doesn’t believe this was ritual sacrifice). Personally very interested to hear Mr Click.
- Associate Professor Jeffrey Turco - what will he say about the crime scene?
- Other people on the trails or in the area, who else did they see
- Family and friends of RA

Some things that are really puzzling to me that may not be answered
- RA knew he had been seen by three girls, so much so that he came forward to the CO, but proceeded with a murder not too far away
- RA kept his car and gun and stayed in Delphi, working in a customer facing role, even after the video came out
- The likely murderer walked along the road W300 after the murders (and was seen) rather than moving hidden through the wooded areas

BbM
I don’t think he knew he had been “noticed” by the group of girls he passed. He was good at being pretty unremarkable on a day to day basis. IMO. Perhaps this is behind part of his obsession and resentment. Again just me pondering.
Does anyone remember that one of the girls from
the group was interviewed by a local reporter on camera and made a remark about seeing a creepy man pass by her and her friends that day? I think the interview was the 14th or early on 2/15. I remember thinking her parents would have a fit that she did that interview.
I’ve looked for the clip and it’s long gone.
I think that clip may have propelled him to go forward and self report to CO. Not realizing there is as another witness placing him on the platform.
That and I think he had told his wife that he was on the trails that day and he had to pretend to be a helpful citizen.
JMO

 

[AugustWest]

Baby goat!
I am assuming they will have additional recordings from his voice from his multiple in prison phone calls as well to compare to the “DTH” audio.
Could they make a recording of cocking his seized gun and compare it to the sound in the recorded audio taken during abduction as well?
JMO

On a lighter note. Happy Easter to those that celebrate. Hope you get to spend some special time with those you love.

@Cyber sleuth

First, I return your kind words and wish you and your loved ones a happy Easter Sunday, as well as to all of you reading along.

I wanted to comment on the audio comparison you are speaking about. The analysis a court does when determining whether a voice identification is allowed under the rules of evidence comes from common law, in particular the case of Neil v. Biggers, 409 U.S. 188 (1972). I have included a link below for you to read should you be interested.

Link: Neil v. Biggers, 409 U.S. 188 (1972)

This case dealt with both eyewitness and voice id, and a rule was formed by the Court to test reliability of these identifications. The test requires courts to consider two things: (1) the suggestive nature of the identification; (2) the reliability of the identification. As far as suggestive, think one on one id's vs. photo lineups. As far as reliability, the court laid out "indicia" of reliability in Manson v. Brathwaite, 432 U.S. 98 (1977).

Link: Manson v. Brathwaite, 432 U.S. 98 (1977)

Without being more verbose than I have already been, I will simply say the way you have described recognition would not pass muster on a due process level. A one-on-one comparison between RA and BG voice samples would first be overly suggestive. Further, such a comparison would also be unreliable, as layperson identifications (i.e. the jury) are notoriously unreliable and inaccurate. The jurors will have never heard RA's or BG's voice before, and are thus not sufficiently familiar with it to make such an ID. There were also no known witnesses who heard RA's or BG's voice, so hearsay would also be a problem.

Here is a really good law journal article on the topic should you be interested. I think it will help those reading in thinking about not only voice analysis comparisons, but also visual identifications.

Journal: https://repository.uclawsf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3507&context=hastings_law_journal

 

[AugustWest]

The jury will hear that he passed the girls by FB.
MOO What is most relevant to the case are RAs movements, corroberation of these movements.
His gun matches the print in BGs jacket and the cycled round at the crime scene.
That Indiana has turned out to be a mess of criminality is surprising but I dont think its directly relevant.

You can identify BG's gun type by a print through a jacket? This type of identification would be absolutely smoked by any defense.

 

[justtrish]

Some of the testimony that I think is going to be valuable (if defence run with Odinist theory);
- Todd Click - investigated and believes there is evidence against a group of people as alternative suspects - sounds like more drug related than Odinist from Click’s perspective to me (doesn’t believe this was ritual sacrifice). Personally very interested to hear Mr Click.
- Associate Professor Jeffrey Turco - what will he say about the crime scene?
- Other people on the trails or in the area, who else did they see
- Family and friends of RA

Some things that are really puzzling to me that may not be answered
- RA knew he had been seen by three girls, so much so that he came forward to the CO, but proceeded with a murder not too far away
- RA kept his car and gun and stayed in Delphi, working in a customer facing role, even after the video came out
- The likely murderer walked along the road W300 after the murders (and was seen) rather than moving hidden through the wooded areas

RA played the role of a concerned citizen. He came forward because in his mind the killer would not come forward to say he was there. He knew he was seen by the 3 girls so he says he saw them.. seems like he's truthful.. he sees them, they see him and so he thinks that builds credibility. He says he didn't see Abby and Libby and they aren't here to say any different. When he came forward, he had no idea there was a video of him that would give police a still photo to release to the public. He tells them where he actually parked. He doesn't think that would make him look guilty because he didn't count on anyone seeing him walking back to that car. He didn't know anyone came forward to say they saw him walking on that road.

Why would he need to get rid of the car? Nobody was looking for it.

He didn't know he dropped that bullet and he didn't know that Libby's video captured them saying something about a gun. He didn't shoot them, so why would he need to get rid of the gun. He didn't know police would be looking for one and they never publicly said they were looking for one. This is a prime reason police keep hold back evidence. He didn't destroy evidence because he didn't know it was evidence.

 

[layer]

RA played the role of a concerned citizen. He came forward because in his mind the killer would not come forward to say he was there.

or...
RA played the role of a concerned citizen. He came forward because he knew he was innocent.

 

[Salah11]

or...
RA played the role of a concerned citizen. He came forward because he knew he was innocent.

Of course he had been framed from the get go and he is just the unluckiest man on earth.

 

[Boxer]

You can identify BG's gun type by a print through a jacket? This type of identification would be absolutely smoked by any defense.

Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114​

Post #121

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114

Perhaps a stun gun was used. This would immobilize one victim with out sound and the threat of further harm to that victim may have silenced the second girl. MOO I think a deep grip handgun was used - I see an imprint of that type of hand gun in his right jacket pocket. Something very...

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[Boxer]

A

or...
RA played the role of a concerned citizen. He came forward because he knew he was innocent.

Agree. Nothing can be determined from his coming forward.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

@Cyber sleuth

First, I return your kind words and wish you and your loved ones a happy Easter Sunday, as well as to all of you reading along.

I wanted to comment on the audio comparison you are speaking about. The analysis a court does when determining whether a voice identification is allowed under the rules of evidence comes from common law, in particular the case of Neil v. Biggers, 409 U.S. 188 (1972). I have included a link below for you to read should you be interested.

Link: Neil v. Biggers, 409 U.S. 188 (1972)

This case dealt with both eyewitness and voice id, and a rule was formed by the Court to test reliability of these identifications. The test requires courts to consider two things: (1) the suggestive nature of the identification; (2) the reliability of the identification. As far as suggestive, think one on one id's vs. photo lineups. As far as reliability, the court laid out "indicia" of reliability in Manson v. Brathwaite, 432 U.S. 98 (1977).

Link: Manson v. Brathwaite, 432 U.S. 98 (1977)

Without being more verbose than I have already been, I will simply say the way you have described recognition would not pass muster on a due process level. A one-on-one comparison between RA and BG voice samples would first be overly suggestive. Further, such a comparison would also be unreliable, as layperson identifications (i.e. the jury) are notoriously unreliable and inaccurate. The jurors will have never heard RA's or BG's voice before, and are thus not sufficiently familiar with it to make such an ID. There were also no known witnesses who heard RA's or BG's voice, so hearsay would also be a problem.

Here is a really good law journal article on the topic should you be interested. I think it will help those reading in thinking about not only voice analysis comparisons, but also visual identifications.

Journal: https://repository.uclawsf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3507&context=hastings_law_journal

Thanks for this information. I can understand completely that could get very problematic to expect laymen to be able to distinguish vocal comparisons. I wonder if they will have a voice expert then?
It will be interesting to see if they pursue that in any way. Same with the digital images. We all can see different things in the infamous BG photo still and video clips-will they trust the jury to determine if that’s RA?
Perhaps it won’t be necessary.

Thanks for your time and expertise- I am grateful for your information.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

A

Ageee. Nothing can be determined from his coming forward.

Yes agree and it gets trickier when he stopped coming forward. As many have said. How much is enough? How little is to avoid suspicion?
Personally if it was my picture on billboards and ISP website I would have retained an attorney and had some serious meeting with LE until it was taken down. JMO
But then again my wobbly ankles and my proneness to vertigo , I would have had be keeled over before taking the first step of that bridge.

 

[layer]

Yes agree and it gets trickier when he stopped coming forward. As many have said. How much is enough? How little is to avoid suspicion?

I am waiting for the details of that whole thing.
Exactly how/when/where did that initial report/meeting/conversation occur? Was it recorded or was a report made? If the answer to either of those is yes, do we actually have either of them in evidence? Exactly who was in charge of this investigation at that time? Where were all the tips and leads converging? Did this lead/report receive additional investigation or lead to other interviews before 2022?
Just for starters.

Personally if it was my picture on billboards and ISD website I would have retained an attorney and had some serious meeting with LE until it was taken down. JMO

Agreed! That could go either way too, you know. (Why come forward since it wasn't my picture?)

 

[steeltowngirl]

BbM
I don’t think he knew he had been “noticed” by the group of girls he passed. He was good at being pretty unremarkable on a day to day basis. IMO. Perhaps this is behind part of his obsession and resentment. Again just me pondering.
Does anyone remember that one of the girls from
the group was interviewed by a local reporter on camera and made a remark about seeing a creepy man pass by her and her friends that day? I think the interview was the 14th or early on 2/15. I remember thinking her parents would have a fit that she did that interview.
I’ve looked for the clip and it’s long gone.
I think that clip may have propelled him to go forward and self report to CO. Not realizing there is as another witness placing him on the platform.
That and I think he had told his wife that he was on the trails that day and he had to pretend to be a helpful citizen.
JMO

Was it this? CJ discusses the “man in black” (strange man) starting around 1:20.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Was it this? CJ discusses the “man in black” (strange man) starting around 1:20.

No i remember this one though as well well.
The one I remember the girl was on the right side of the screen 14-16 years old blonde hair not straight and no glasses. She was a little more dramatic in her interview. She said she was there and saw him and he was creepy.
I feel like the interview occurred within the 1st 24 hours of the girls being found.

I will look again. It used to be linked in the thread in the early days.

 

[layer]

No i remember this one though as well well.
The one I remember the girl was on the right side of the screen 14-16 years old blonde hair not straight and no glasses. She was a little more dramatic in her interview. She said she was there and saw him and he was creepy.
I feel like the interview occurred within the 1st 24 hours of the girls being found.

I wonder if some of the witnesses could have been seeing Libby's father.

 

[Emma Peel]

Cool old pix.
Monan High bridge with rails still on

 

[FrostedGlass]

@girlhasnoname
Regarding your comment wondering why RA's wife isn't speaking out:

Dec. 2, 2022 - Gag order
Judge Gull issues a gag order that prevents all parties from speaking publicly on the case.
Involved parties, counsel, law enforcement officials, court personnel, the coroner and family members are not allowed to speak publicly on the case.
A hearing is scheduled for Jan. 13, 2023 at 10 a.m. in the Carroll County Circuit Court. At that hearing, the judge will review the order to decide if it should remain in place.
Anyone who violates the gag order could be held in contempt of court and is subjected to a fine or incarceration.

Richard Allen case | Full timeline and events so far

A status hearing held in Fort Wayne on Thursday will allow Judge Francis Gull to address both the defense and prosecution ahead of Richard Allen's jury trial.

www.wthr.com

 

[Spartygirl]

The confusion is all mine, trust me.
So we should be able to safely assume that they have the Carhartt his wife was speaking of in evidence. Then again, I would have assumed that of all those interviews as well.

Well, according to items taken from the search, there is one Blue Carhartt jacket listed.
ITEM DRV120

 

[Salah11]

Is a Brown hoody mentioned or a Brown anything in the search warrant?