Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[layer]

The confessions I'm seeing now are not reality-based, but if other confessions exist and they are more reality-based, they won't be so easily explained away.

Quote of the day, IMHO

 

[twall]

This David Camm?
Bill Lamb, President and General Manager of WDRB, the Fox affiliate in Louisville, Kentucky, issued a public apology to Camm stating: "Seven years ago, I did a Point of View criticizing David Camm's attorneys for seeking yet another appeal right after his second conviction for the murder of his family. I wondered when Indiana taxpayers would get to stop paying fortunes in trial expenses, and why any accused killer could possibly deserve so many 'do-overs'. Well, now we have the answer: When they're not guilty."After the third trial, a juror, in response to the question "Do you think that they intentionally wanted to convict an innocent man?" responded "I would hope not but…I sense that the State Police had a hard time admitting that they had made a mistake."
Not a good look

yes

IN - Kimberly Camm, 35, & 2 children murdered, Georgetown, 28 Sept 2000 *2 earlier trials OVERTURNED

Anyone watch this tonight??? Wadda ya think??/ I dunno seems like they have really slim evidence to me...he is going to get a new trial.......I dunno it's one thing for Scott to kill his child within his wife.s' body..but for this guy to kill his two kids....I dunno...hard to believe..but the...

www.websleuths.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

Who photographed the girls in a state of undress? I lost the plot here. The State isn't alleging SA, correct?

I believe the current discussion of SA is due to the defense document stating that RA made admissions to molesting the girls but the autopsy report doesn’t state SA. Point being he could have molested them without signs of SA on an autopsy.

 

[sunshineray]

Well one thing that is an empirical fact is that he has been held for a long period of time in a prison (as opposed to jail), which in and of itself is constitutionally problematic.

I wonder just how problematic it would have been if RA had stayed in county jail and was either killed or committed suicide. Just how well equipped is a county jail for dealing with and protecting a mentally unstable high-profile defendant?

 

[sunshineray]

Crimes are defined differently at law than what persons consider them to be. They have very exacting elements.

Yes but tell me which sounds right? A woman is robbed outside a town library. She's pushed violently to the ground, legs injured. A knife is drawn by the assailant and loud threats are made standing over her to, give me your bag or I'll slice you up. Guy is caught and in the Police Blotter it's listed that he's being charge with misdemeanor purse snatching. Now in my mind it's assault and armed robbery. Who's perspective is more sound? True story

 

[susiQ]

I believe the current discussion of SA is due to the defense document stating that RA made admissions to molesting the girls but the autopsy report doesn’t state SA. Point being he could have molested them without signs of SA on an autopsy.

Yes, and he also “admitted” to shooting them in the back. They were brutally murdered with a knife not a gun. I doubt he would have forgotten that detail if he had actually committed the murders. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Yep...legal insanity is simply the inability to decipher right from wrong. It has nothing to do with mental illness.

Well it does but the 2nd part...not knowing somethings wrong HAS to be present also. Mental illness alone won't suffice if you know when something is wrong.
Mental disease and/or defect + knowing wrong= legal insanity


'Insanity defense...
Such a defense places an affirmative burden (meaning the defendant has the responsibility) to prove, by a preponderance of the evidence (a lower standard than beyond a reasonable doubt) that: 1) They suffer from a mental disease or defect (or a severe abnormal mental condition that grossly and demonstrably impairs their perception) and 2) that the mental disease or defect rendered them unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of their conduct at the time of the offense. Important to note here is that proof of mental illness alone is not enough."

What Is The "Insanity Defense" In Indiana

For nearly two centuries, the concept of the “insanity defense” has been debated and changed in Indiana’s Appellate Courts. Central to the debate is the recognition that, when a mental illness renders a person incapable of distinguishing right from wrong, the law excuses their would be criminal...

banksbrower.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yes, and he also “admitted” to shooting them in the back. They were brutally murdered with a knife not a gun. I doubt he would have forgotten that detail if he had actually committed the murders. JMO

Hi @susiQ for context- just for a brief moment, I was setting aside RA’s alleged admissions, and answering a poster as to why we were discussing SA, at all. OP said RA isn’t charged with SA, which is true as of now. But the defense document brought up SA. We have been talking about what SA is legally, vs. what SA can be in reality, etc.

ETA: maybe RA thought he shot them. Maybe he had a psychotic break. Maybe he wasn’t there at all. I don’t know what to make of this case anymore.

 

[sunshineray]

@Wienekelo

Assuming #RichardAllen's confessions are not suppressed, this poses an interesting situation at trial. Normally we all take great pains to ensure that the jury is never made aware that the defendant spent time in jail before trial. This is due to the obvious stigma attached to that. But in this case, Allen's pretrial incarceration MUST come out. Otherwise, it would be impossible to show why the confessions lack any reliability. And, of course, you have Odinist guards, a fact you probably want the jury to know.

Last edited4:52 PM · Apr 11, 2024

Pretty sure everyone in the jury pool knows. If the defense was so worried about RA's appearance why didn't they motion for regular clothes in court, no shackles just a stun vest under his clothes? Worked for George Wagner IV...well maybe "worked" is not exactly the right word, since he was convicted as charged.

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, and he also “admitted” to shooting them in the back. They were brutally murdered with a knife not a gun. I doubt he would have forgotten that detail if he had actually committed the murders. JMO

Not necessarily, if he's insane...legally.

 

[snooptroop88]

Agreed it sounds like RA is having a psychotic break.

Know this is kind of moving in a different direction, but did they ever confirm who had access to KK's dropbox? Am assuming this is still unknown. Source: According to the transcripts, Kline had told police other people had access to his online accounts and devices including his father who reportedly was “freaking out” when Kline told him in February 2017 that detectives said Kline was a suspect in the Delphi murders. Another source notes this, with the "him" they mention being KK: "'The law enforcement officials that were in the room with him were essentially saying, 'We don’t believe you were the only person accessing the ‘anthony_shots’ account’ or some of these other accounts that he was tied to,' Cain said. 'They believe multiple people were using them. At least one other person who uses markedly different diction and word choices.'” Another source: "Kline said gave the password to the account 'to a lot of people'"

https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/ju...scripts, Kline,suspect in the Delphi murders.

Podcasters: Kegan Kline's plea change request could affect Delphi murders investigation

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — Kegan Kline was set to go to trial in May in Miami County on charges of child *advertiser censored*, but he’s requested a hearing to change his plea of not guilty. Kline, 28, of Kokomo, has been linked to the investigation into the 2017 murders of teenagers Abigail “Abby” Williams...

www.wishtv.com

Delphi Murders: investigators looking into another ‘anthony_shots’ profile

Investigators looking into the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German are asking for information about another online profile linked to the anthony_shots account.

cbs4indy.com

(trigger warning/graphic)

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Kegan-Anthony-Kline-PC.pdf

 

[steeltowngirl]

Pretty sure everyone in the jury pool knows. If the defense was so worried about RA's appearance why didn't they motion for regular clothes in court, no shackles just a stun vest under his clothes? Worked for George Wagner IV...well maybe "worked" is not exactly the right word, since he was convicted as charged.

I was wondering this too. If it’s poisonous to a jury to know the defendant has been in pretrial detention, why did defense make such a public show of him in shackles and basically advertise that he is in a prison? Is there some wild expectation that the potential jury pool never heard of this case or Richard Allen? If so, voir dire will take weeks to months.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

They moved him 4 times without representation of an attorney. We knew he was transferred from the ISP post to Carroll Co to White Co and finally to Westville. Now we learn they may have made an additional stop in Plainfield at the Reception Diagnostic Center.

RA was arrested 10/26 and stated he wanted to obtain his own representation on 10/28. Then in 11/4 he penned a letter to JD asking for public defenders that was postmarked 11/7 and received and filed with the court on 11/9.
The defense team filed their appearance on 11/14.
The reason RA didn’t have legal representation during his time of transfer is because he asked to obtain an attorney on his own.
MOO
Court appoints two attorneys to represent Delphi murder suspect

 

[AugustWest]

Hi @susiQ for context- just for a brief moment, I was setting aside RA’s alleged admissions, and answering a poster as to why we were discussing SA, at all. OP said RA isn’t charged with SA, which is true as of now. But the defense document brought up SA. We have been talking about what SA is legally, vs. what SA can be in reality, etc.

ETA: maybe RA thought he shot them. Maybe he had a psychotic break. Maybe he wasn’t there at all. I don’t know what to make of this case anymore.

I understood all this, just got lost with the photo stuff. It's all good. Not an important topic to get too in the weeds about.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Agreed it sounds like RA is having a psychotic break.

Know this is kind of moving in a different direction, but did they ever confirm who had access to KK's dropbox? Am assuming this is still unknown. Source: According to the transcripts, Kline had told police other people had access to his online accounts and devices including his father who reportedly was “freaking out” when Kline told him in February 2017 that detectives said Kline was a suspect in the Delphi murders. Another source notes this, with the "him" they mention being KK: "'The law enforcement officials that were in the room with him were essentially saying, 'We don’t believe you were the only person accessing the ‘anthony_shots’ account’ or some of these other accounts that he was tied to,' Cain said. 'They believe multiple people were using them. At least one other person who uses markedly different diction and word choices.'” Another source: "Kline said gave the password to the account 'to a lot of people'"

https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/ju...scripts, Kline,suspect in the Delphi murders.

Podcasters: Kegan Kline's plea change request could affect Delphi murders investigation

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — Kegan Kline was set to go to trial in May in Miami County on charges of child *advertiser censored*, but he’s requested a hearing to change his plea of not guilty. Kline, 28, of Kokomo, has been linked to the investigation into the 2017 murders of teenagers Abigail “Abby” Williams...

www.wishtv.com

Delphi Murders: investigators looking into another ‘anthony_shots’ profile

Investigators looking into the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German are asking for information about another online profile linked to the anthony_shots account.

cbs4indy.com

(trigger warning/graphic)

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Kegan-Anthony-Kline-PC.pdf

AFAIK, no, it’s never been confirmed who was behind a_shots or emilyanne. I haven’t been able to let go of the idea that there’s a connection to the Delphi case. And if this attorney is right, we may never know.

“Tompkins said a Kline guilty plea on the charges he faces would almost assure that all the evidence investigators have uncovered will never be known publicly and, perhaps, that goes for his potential connection to the Delphi case, too.”

”They eliminate or place greater control on the amount of information that is released to the public about the case.”

Attorney says Miami County may be sending message in Kegan Kline plea agreement

PERU, Ind. — When Kegan Kline enters a Miami County courtroom Thursday morning to plead guilty to 25 counts of child *advertiser censored*, child solicitation, identity deception and obstruction of justice, …

fox59.com

 

[Ravenmoon]

LOL, indeed!

I don't know if or how any of these things were said.

For all we know, someone in the jail could have asked why did you shoot them? To which he hypothetically answered, I did after I told them to undress.

I have a heck of a hard time believing that there isn't A LOT being left out... otherwise, why does the defense want the confessions thrown out?

I still believe that the correct man being accused.


JMO

 

[layer]

I don't know if or how any of these things were said.

Precisely

 

[Salah11]

The defense are just throwing more stuff to see what sticks. The Odinists are guilty didn’t work so now we have the whole “ Poor RA is crazy”.

Lets see how much is based in reality when the prosecution get their Say here because I bet it’s been twisted once again to suit their agenda here.

If they was really confident he had completely lost the plot then why are they trying to throw out the confessions and the bullet? - it’s because they know these things prove he is guilty.

Moo

 

[snooptroop88]

AFAIK, no, it’s never been confirmed who was behind a_shots or emilyanne. I haven’t been able to let go of the idea that there’s a connection to the Delphi case. And if this attorney is right, we may never know.

“Tompkins said a Kline guilty plea on the charges he faces would almost assure that all the evidence investigators have uncovered will never be known publicly and, perhaps, that goes for his potential connection to the Delphi case, too.”

”They eliminate or place greater control on the amount of information that is released to the public about the case.”

Attorney says Miami County may be sending message in Kegan Kline plea agreement

PERU, Ind. — When Kegan Kline enters a Miami County courtroom Thursday morning to plead guilty to 25 counts of child *advertiser censored*, child solicitation, identity deception and obstruction of justice, …

fox59.com

Really wondering about that. And disappointedly agreeing it sounds like we might never know one way or the other.

The defense are just throwing more stuff to see what sticks. The Odinists are guilty didn’t work so now we have the whole “ Poor RA is crazy”.

Lets see how much is based in reality when the prosecution get their Say here because I bet it’s been twisted once again to suit their agenda here.

Moo

RA's pretty intelligent if he went through the pharmacy program. That's a pretty intense area of study, STEM focused. He's analytical. I'd say he has a good vocabulary, which makes me wonder about the contrast LE is drawing on the people using that account w/Kline, but that's purely, purely speculative, so much so I don't even like mentioning it. Lots of people have varying writing styles. Agreed with steeltowngirl, though, I just can't let go of the idea there's something possibly there. As far as the "crazy," seriously, if he's doing what they're describing with feces and so on, he sounds like he really has lost his mind, at least at certain points. Or maybe crazy like a fox. Undoubtedly this is where all the furious demands for the psych records are coming from. This is one incredibly creepy case, honestly. And just noting since I can still edit on this, on KK, I saw one source noting KK had ties through family to Mexico, IN. Just noting, that's verified, I'm pretty sure I see that verified on an obituary. I don't know if anyone here has seen KK's transcripts where the LE is grilling him on ties to an address on Country Club Road, but the tie to Mexico IN also pulls in with Country Club Road. Population of Mexico IN is 1128.

 

[kae27]

This is all extremely worrisome to me. Many here who thought they needed "more" to favor RA's guilt indicated that if he had revealed information in his "confessions" that only the killer would know, that would go a long way, but if he didn't, it wouldn't be helpful. If the information revealed today is true (and I've no reason not to think so), the "confessions" go sadly in entirely the other direction.

When I say "worrisome," I mean that, given what we know from public filings, I don't see how the state will get a guilty verdict here. I hope that there is more to come, as it would be truly tragic if this trial doesn't bring closure.

And not that it's worth much, but if I were guessing (and NOT "beyond a reasonable doubt"), I think RA was BG but didn't act alone.