Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #180

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.

Richard Allen has been arrested and charged with the murders of Abby and Libby

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

PICTURES OF ABBY AND LIBBY
Link to post with all threads 1 - 98 (Courtesy of margarita25)
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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Tricia]

A consolidation of ADMIN & MOD notes (edited November 24, 2022):

- Members are allowed to discuss Richard Allen's voice as heard on the Gray Hughes podcast. Members may NOT link directly to RA's wife’s social media accounts.

- Speculation about RA’s possible involvement in other cases belongs in the OTHER CASES thread.

- Speculation that is not based on known fact is not allowed.

- Please use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

- If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just jump off any post to use the Report feature to ask and a Mod or Admin will respond as soon as possible.

- Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

- Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

- Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons of unrelated pictures are not allowed.

 

[Tricia]

Mod Note:
For general JBC II discussions please use his thread. In Abby & Libby’s thread, JBC II should only be discussed in the context of a possible connection to Abby & Libby’s case.
Thanks Everyone!

JBC II Thread:
IN - James Chadwell II, 42, arrested after girl 9, found in his home, Lafayette, 19 Apr 2021 #3

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Tricia]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, but statement analysis, body language analysis, amateur handwriting analysis is not allowed unless sourced to a credentialed, forensic specialist involved in the case under discussion.

This discussion is dedicated to Abby and Libby. Posts that do not relate directly to their case are off topic and such posts get removed. If you wish to discuss personal matters, please do so with your WS friends through PM or in the basement.

Also, the presumption of innocence is part and parcel of the judicial process. It does not apply to the general public who are entitled to express their opinion. Members are not here to be lectured or chastised by others for expressing their personal opinions. If you have an issue, use the Report feature and let Mods or Admins determine what is or is not okay to post.

Thanks.

Sillybilly
WS Administrator

Click here for The Rules

 

[MadMcGoo]

Please read the above Opening Posts and continue discussion here.

 

[MadMcGoo]

My apologies for the delay. I forgot to “open” the new thread.

 

[layer]

This is why we're here

Source

 

[Boxer]

Hard to imagine or acknowledge that there exist in our towns and cities those with a mindset wishing to harm innocents.

 

[mrjitty]

@TL4S

Just picking up on the last thread. I agree with some of your concerns. IMO the custody of RA is outrageous.

My point in raising the safe keeping was to highlight that the defence were in fact found to have made false claims. It's on the record, so we can't say that didn't happen (though one can always disagree with a Judge as I am known to do on this website!)

I believe RA would be better served if the defence played with a straight bat and simply pointed out what is unacceptable about his detention, rather than making wild claims that turn out not to be true.

We just saw an example of this on the motion to dismiss. As I noted in the last thread, Baldwin had a clear task in terms of what he had to prove re 2017. Instead he started trying to prove a wider ranging conspiracy that happened after 2017. The judge, fully justifiably IMO, grew exasperated with him and pointed out he had not pleaded any of this in his motion.

Whether or not you think there is some wider conspiracy to destroy evidence, that is just bad lawyering. I guess some will claim this is more evidence of Gull's bias. But it is hardly her fault if Baldwin fails to introduce the evidence which was required on a motion to dismiss, and instead heads off on an esoteric departure from his own pleadings.

 

[snooptroop88]

Has anyone on here brought up the BG cuffed jeans? RA's very short, yet round around the middle (at that time). Evidently, having to cuff jeans is a problem for shorter men. From a source: "...maybe they could only find a 30” inseam when they really need a 28”, so they cuff them instead of getting them hemmed." Right, I'm not saying other men don't do the cuffs, but it looks like RA's proportions might make it especially likely he'd have to do so, and maybe often. (Apologies if someone has already noted this, this is thread #180, and sometimes, even when I search, I can't find points that I later see were already made.)

 

[mrjitty]

DH is back to briefing the media because the gag order does not apply to him. I don't understand the point of the gag order if Gull does not extend it to these surrogates who clearly work for the defence team.

Once more, DH makes claims not made in Court. Now MW lawyered up so they couldn't get to the bottom of it.

”They alleged and somehow wanted to hold Baldwin responsible for a former associate and close friend taking unauthorized pictures of pictures,” said Hennessy. “We never got to the bottom of it because he lawyered up, and we never knew how many he took, but the ones that ended up on the internet that they were complaining about, Mr. Rozzi testified that that didn’t come from the Defense, there was two of them at least that they had not prepared or ever seen before. It’s kind of like victim-bashing. If somebody burglarizes my home and finds something indiscreet and then puts it on the internet, how is that my fault?”
In the Indirect Contempt Complaint, Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland argued that Baldwin’s conversations with the former associate that were also leaked to a social media poster violated the Gag Order by sharing confidential case information.

We are back to MW being an old friend and yet

“Its brainstorming, and they all do it,” said Hennessy. “And lawyers just don’t consult with other lawyers, because if you’re going to a jury trial, you’re not gonna have lawyers on the jury, so you want to talk to people who are more representative of the type of people you will have on a jury to get their view of the evidence because it will guide you in what to present and how to present it.”
Hennessy said Baldwin and Rozzi were never told they couldn’t talk about the case to advisors.

... now he is an advisor! Strange that it was never mentioned back in October in the various phone conferences and in chambers meeting that he sent the Franks to him. I wonder why DH never clears up if MW was in that meeting room with the knowledge and permission of Baldwin? Seems important.

FOX59 exclusive: Attorney for Delphi defense team puzzled by court and prosecutor blow back

 

[FrostedGlass]

DH is back to briefing the media because the gag order does not apply to him. I don't understand the point of the gag order if Gull does not extend it to these surrogates who clearly work for the defence team.

Once more, DH makes claims not made in Court. Now MW lawyered up so they couldn't get to the bottom of it.



We are back to MW being an old friend and yet



... now he is an advisor! Strange that it was never mentioned back in October in the various phone conferences and in chambers meeting that he sent the Franks to him. I wonder why DH never clears up if MW was in that meeting room with the knowledge and permission of Baldwin? Seems important.

FOX59 exclusive: Attorney for Delphi defense team puzzled by court and prosecutor blow back

Mitch Westerman has a hearing date for a motion to dismiss. I suspect no one is going to discuss any details, more than what they have already said, until that's taken care of.

04/11/2024

Pretrial Conference Session: 03/07/2024 1:30 PM, Rescheduled Session: 03/27/2024 9:00 AM, Rescheduled Session: 04/11/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B. Comment: Defense Motion to Dismiss

 

[susane7]

DH is back to briefing the media because the gag order does not apply to him. I don't understand the point of the gag order if Gull does not extend it to these surrogates who clearly work for the defence team.

Agreed. I think some attorneys (Cara, Bob and DH, etc) are mouthpieces for the defense and working with/for the defense in the backstages. That's how the defense are contorning the gag order.

 

[girlhasnoname]

DH is back to briefing the media because the gag order does not apply to him. I don't understand the point of the gag order if Gull does not extend it to these surrogates who clearly work for the defence team.

Once more, DH makes claims not made in Court. Now MW lawyered up so they couldn't get to the bottom of it.



We are back to MW being an old friend and yet



... now he is an advisor! Strange that it was never mentioned back in October in the various phone conferences and in chambers meeting that he sent the Franks to him. I wonder why DH never clears up if MW was in that meeting room with the knowledge and permission of Baldwin? Seems important.

FOX59 exclusive: Attorney for Delphi defense team puzzled by court and prosecutor blow back

HAHAHAHA - Does DH really think that anybody who has followed this case believes one word that is coming out of his mouth? Oh this is rich.

First DH says in his Statement filed on behalf of AB not to DQ the Defense during the in chambers to Judge Gull on Oct 18th that "Andrew Baldwin was snookered by a trusted friend who took this information from his office without AB's permission".

HAHAHAHA - I'm sorry, it's just comical to see how the spin is self imploding. I believe R&B are going to be found guilty of contempt charges. I just hope they face the strongest penalties.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Agreed. I think some attorneys (Cara, Bob and DH, etc) are mouthpieces for the defense and working with/for the defense in the backstages. That's how the defense are contorning the gag order.

For sure, they have to keep the "Hype" alive and going on in SM. It is going to/has already backfired in spectacular fashion IMO. R&B have lost the advantage of any courtroom dynamics they might have had at one time.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Mitch Westerman has a hearing date for a motion to dismiss. I suspect no one is going to discuss any details, more than what they have already said, until that's taken care of.

04/11/2024

Pretrial Conference Session: 03/07/2024 1:30 PM, Rescheduled Session: 03/27/2024 9:00 AM, Rescheduled Session: 04/11/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B. Comment: Defense Motion to Dismiss

I don't see MW getting a dismissal. He is knee deep in the leaking of those photos and information. He snookered his best friend AB without approval after sneaking in his office and taking them without AB's permission supposedly.

Now that Judge Gull has allowed the string of texts into evidence, it's plain to see his real participation along with AB's.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Has anyone on here brought up the BG cuffed jeans? RA's very short, yet round around the middle (at that time). Evidently, having to cuff jeans is a problem for shorter men. From a source: "...maybe they could only find a 30” inseam when they really need a 28”, so they cuff them instead of getting them hemmed." Right, I'm not saying other men don't do the cuffs, but it looks like RA's proportions might make it especially likely he'd have to do so, and maybe often. (Apologies if someone has already noted this, this is thread #180, and sometimes, even when I search, I can't find points that I later see were already made.)

I've mentioned it ad nauseam. 29" inseam is the shortest by industry standards. If you look closely at photos of RA pre murders, you will notice how the cuffs break or rolls in the same position over his ankle in every photo I've ever seen. I've noticed it even in his prison jumpsuit.

He's a short man with a long torso. We've debated his height to death on here as well, but I believe he is somewhere around 5' 6" myself.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Agreed. I think some attorneys (Cara, Bob and DH, etc) are mouthpieces for the defense and working with/for the defense in the backstages. That's how the defense are contorning the gag order.

As we push for transparency in the legal system, the sealing of documents, the gag order and no cameras allowed in the courtroom are seen as a slap in our faces.

 

[mrjitty]

Mitch Westerman has a hearing date for a motion to dismiss. I suspect no one is going to discuss any details, more than what they have already said, until that's taken care of.

04/11/2024

Pretrial Conference Session: 03/07/2024 1:30 PM, Rescheduled Session: 03/27/2024 9:00 AM, Rescheduled Session: 04/11/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B. Comment: Defense Motion to Dismiss

Oh sure, I am not naive to that. But let's not pretend MW lawyered up before they could get to the bottom of it, or at least he didn't before he handed over a carefully crafted statement that incriminated himself in narrow terms and exonerated AB. No lawyer would have advised him to do that!

 

[TL4S]

@TL4S

Just picking up on the last thread. I agree with some of your concerns. IMO the custody of RA is outrageous.

My point in raising the safe keeping was to highlight that the defence were in fact found to have made false claims. It's on the record, so we can't say that didn't happen (though one can always disagree with a Judge as I am known to do on this website!)

I believe RA would be better served if the defence played with a straight bat and simply pointed out what is unacceptable about his detention, rather than making wild claims that turn out not to be true.

We just saw an example of this on the motion to dismiss. As I noted in the last thread, Baldwin had a clear task in terms of what he had to prove re 2017. Instead he started trying to prove a wider ranging conspiracy that happened after 2017. The judge, fully justifiably IMO, grew exasperated with him and pointed out he had not pleaded any of this in his motion.

Whether or not you think there is some wider conspiracy to destroy evidence, that is just bad lawyering. I guess some will claim this is more evidence of Gull's bias. But it is hardly her fault if Baldwin fails to introduce the evidence which was required on a motion to dismiss, and instead heads off on an esoteric departure from his own pleadings.

I agree, the D has gone to extremes at times, and I don't think it serves RA well. The motion to dismiss, though, imo, was more about the record than ever getting the case dismissed. I don't think any judge would have dismissed on those grounds alone.

They don't know what they don't know in regards to the 2017 lost interviews. NMcL wants it just taken at his word that none of it was important or exculpatory, so what are the D supposed to do but get it on the record?

I don't, personally, think there is a larger conspiracy. But the way things have been handled by all involved sort of breeds those conspiracies in the public. I'm waiting for evidence at trial, which hopefully clears up my questions. The D is only one party in this, and not even the one with the greatest burden. That's why I'm so concerned about these other issues. They can play a factor in the outcome, as well. Jmo.