GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[StillDiggin]

Police are searching for a couple who have gone missing with their newborn baby after their car broke down on a motorway.
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon left the car near junction four of the M61 near Bolton on Thursday night and walked towards Anchor Lane bridge, Greater Manchester Police (GMP) said.
Officers believe Ms Marten had recently given birth and neither she nor her baby had seen medical professionals.
They are appealing for information.
The bridge the couple walked towards links the Highfield and Little Hulton areas.

Couple and newborn baby missing after M61 breakdown - police

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon went missing with their baby after breaking down on the M61.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thread #1
Thread #2
Thread #3 (thread pulled)
Thread #4
Thread #5
Thread #6
Thread #7

 

[Knitty]

IMPORTANT

Effective with the arrest in this case, sub judice is in effect and will be until a trial has concluded. For anyone not familiar with the judicial principle of sub judice, please review the following.

WS is based in the USA but we do try to manage the various discussions to comply with laws of other countries.

As this trial is in the UK, the case is under sub judice so please avoid anything that violates the following principles:

Basically anything that may prejudice the accused’s right to a fair trial
Any suggestion, opinion, or direct accusation that the accused is either guilty OR innocent
(i.e. the accused cannot be called "the killer"; use "the accused", "the alleged killer", or "the defendant")
A defendant’s previous history of any offences is off limits
Scandalizing the court (disparaging judges, lawyers, any officer of the Court) is off limits
Broadcasting anything about proceedings which happen in the jury's absence is off limits
Any non compliance with an Order of the court is off limits

Note in the event of an Appeal subsequent to verdict:
Appeals are usually heard by senior judges who are not likely to be influenced by the media, therefore responsible comment is usually considered acceptable once a trial has concluded, regardless of if there is going to be an appeal.

Posts that are determined to constitute a violation of sub judice will be removed. To avoid this, please review the following from the Victoria Law Reform Commission and post accordingly:
10. Sub judice contempt: restricting the publication of prejudicial information

 

[Knitty]

Please continue here.

 

[dotr]

re-post

Constance Marten says 'I'm an excellent mother' and that she 'plotted to smuggle baby to Europe'

Constance Marten claimed her wealthy family had wrongly accused her of bearing children to sell on the black market

sg.news.yahoo.com

“My number one concern was to keep Victoria”, she said.
“I’m a good mother. I’m an excellent mother, actually. And she deserved my love and attention.”

''The plan was to try and go abroad legally, or find some people who would smuggle us abroad illegally.”

 

[BreadnLumpit]

re-post

Constance Marten says 'I'm an excellent mother' and that she 'plotted to smuggle baby to Europe'

Constance Marten claimed her wealthy family had wrongly accused her of bearing children to sell on the black market

sg.news.yahoo.com

“My number one concern was to keep Victoria”, she said.
“I’m a good mother. I’m an excellent mother, actually. And she deserved my love and attention.”

''The plan was to try and go abroad legally, or find some people who would smuggle us abroad illegally.”

It strikes me that I don't think I have *ever* heard anyone describe themselves as an "excellent" mother" before.

It's such an incredibly arrogant and self aggrandising thing to say IMO.

 

[Justoneoftheguests]

re-post

Constance Marten says 'I'm an excellent mother' and that she 'plotted to smuggle baby to Europe'

Constance Marten claimed her wealthy family had wrongly accused her of bearing children to sell on the black market

sg.news.yahoo.com

“My number one concern was to keep Victoria”, she said.
“I’m a good mother. I’m an excellent mother, actually. And she deserved my love and attention.”

''The plan was to try and go abroad legally, or find some people who would smuggle us abroad illegally.”

She really seems to lack self reflection.

She is right about one thing, baby Victoria did deserve her mother’s love and attention. She didn’t deserve to be treated the way she was, regardless of what lead to that.

 

[Megnut]

It strikes me that I don't think I have *ever* heard anyone describe themselves as an "excellent" mother" before.

It's such an incredibly arrogant and self aggrandising thing to say IMO.

An "excellent" mother with zero children.

 

[charminglane]

An "excellent" mother with zero children.

Exactly.
I'm an excellent mother compared to CM.
And I've never had any.

 

[dotr]

An "excellent" mother with zero children.

Cannot help but think of Dustin Hoffman's character in Rain Man repeatedly stating that he "is an excellent driver''! lol, imo.

 

[Maryanna]

It strikes me that I don't think I have *ever* heard anyone describe themselves as an "excellent" mother" before.

It's such an incredibly arrogant and self aggrandising thing to say IMO.

The comparison would be with other mothers who are being directly accused to their faces of being appallingly bad mothers, in front of a large number of people. I wonder how many mothers who think (as most mothers do) they are good mothers (as most mothers are) would say in those circumstances that they think they are quite good, yes, about as good as most mothers.

 

[bobbymkii]

Listed for tomorrow. Are they starting at 10AM or 2PM?

SITTING AT 10:00 am

Trial (Part Heard)

T20237104	GORDON Mark A	01MP1072723	SUSWM	CPS
	MARTEN Constance	01MP1072723

DTA - SITTING AT 2PM, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981

 

[BreadnLumpit]

Listed for tomorrow. Are they starting at 10AM or 2PM?

SITTING AT 10:00 am

Trial (Part Heard)

T20237104	GORDON Mark A	01MP1072723	SUSWM	CPS
	MARTEN Constance	01MP1072723

DTA - SITTING AT 2PM, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981

That's a weird one. Maybe sitting at 10am without the Jury to hear legal arguments (it was never clear whether those had been done with last week), and then the jury in for the start of the Judge's summing up at 2pm?

Unless they've taken a leaf from Fiona Beal's book.

 

[Parker Knoll]

2pm I would guess.

 

[rockthecasbah]

An "excellent" mother with zero children.

I listened to a podcast about adoption years ago and remember the birth mum saying "I'd like to think I'm a good mum". She had 10 or 11 children, all removed.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

I listened to a podcast about adoption years ago and remember the birth mum saying "I'd like to think I'm a good mum". She had 10 or 11 children, all removed.

IMO feeling like you aren't a good enough parent and could do better is pretty much the norm for most mothers.

Guilt is baked in from the start in my experience. It's why women beat themselves up about just about everything, from having had a glass of wine before they knew they were pregnant, to breastfeeding and beyond.

Thinking about it, perhaps it's inevitable that those who self declare themselves as being good/excellent parents, are the ones most likely to end up having their children removed - because they lack the humility to learn how to put their children's needs front and centre.

 

[Alyce]

Listed for tomorrow. Are they starting at 10AM or 2PM?

SITTING AT 10:00 am

Trial (Part Heard)

T20237104	GORDON Mark A	01MP1072723	SUSWM	CPS
	MARTEN Constance	01MP1072723

DTA - SITTING AT 2PM, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981

Encouraging to see there’s a separate , unrelated ,hearing scheduled in for 3pm.

Can we hope that Judge Lucraft expects to have sent the jury out by then

 

[Baby baby Jane]

re-post

Constance Marten says 'I'm an excellent mother' and that she 'plotted to smuggle baby to Europe'

Constance Marten claimed her wealthy family had wrongly accused her of bearing children to sell on the black market

sg.news.yahoo.com

“My number one concern was to keep Victoria”, she said.
“I’m a good mother. I’m an excellent mother, actually. And she deserved my love and attention.”

''The plan was to try and go abroad legally, or find some people who would smuggle us abroad illegally.”

Of course my opinion only - we would not be on WS discussing this trial if the Number One Concern had been Victoria’s health (and not “keep”).

 

[Lucy6226]

The comparison would be with other mothers who are being directly accused to their faces of being appallingly bad mothers, in front of a large number of people. I wonder how many mothers who think (as most mothers do) they are good mothers (as most mothers are) would say in those circumstances that they think they are quite good, yes, about as good as most mothers.

Bad parents don't worry that they are bad mothers. They don't see their actions as neglectful or abusive.

Good parents question themselves constantly. They very often feel guilty about small things like a little too much junk food or screen time that day. They will ensure their child has their basic needs met... sometimes by going without themselves.

We did not see anything that qualified as good parenting in this case.

All Moo

 

[ShadowPuppet]

It strikes me that I don't think I have *ever* heard anyone describe themselves as an "excellent" mother" before.

It's such an incredibly arrogant and self aggrandising thing to say IMO.

I agree, but it’s honestly quite common for parents with SS involvement, but usually in the sense of social workers asking and a parent (who’s very much struggling) either not having the insight or not wanting the intrusion/being in denial. The sad thing for many of those parents is their own parents’ example was no better and, sometimes, worse. We don’t really know what CM or MG childhoods were like, but the lack of insight throughout has been very apparent. Not to forget MG continual asking repeatedly for food and insinuating mistreatment around his legs throughout interviews, while the Police constantly tried to ask where baby Victoria was. Anyone with insight into their own behaviour (or empathy) would recognise how inappropriate and bizarre that was.

It’s yet another juxtaposition - a mother who recognises herself as excellent, but who blames herself for her child’s accidental death, or so say the defence. It does sound like there were positives, she was thoughtful in activities at contact and put in effort, showing love and care, but she wasn’t consistent and it sounds as though the lack of insight prevented her really taking the feedback offered and working through the issues they had as a family.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

.....snippe

Thinking about it, perhaps it's inevitable that those who self declare themselves as being good/excellent parents, are the ones most likely to end up having their children removed - because they lack the humility to learn how to put their children's needs front and centre.

IMO feeling like you aren't a good enough parent and could do better is pretty much the norm for most mothers.

Guilt is baked in from the start in my experience. It's why women beat themselves up about just about everything, from having had a glass of wine before they knew they were pregnant, to breastfeeding and beyond.

Thinking about it, perhaps it's inevitable that those who self declare themselves as being good/excellent parents, are the ones most likely to end up having their children removed - because they lack the humility to learn how to put their children's needs front and centre.

BBM
100%. I met someone who called herself a "great mum" and had all 3 children removed. She could not see why they were taken. She minimised the impact that her behaviour was having on her children all the time.
She had all offers of help and didn't take any. Too socially anxious to go to parenting classes, not to go to the night club or pub, etc.
She failed a parenting assessment and the kids remained in kinship care.
She still posts photos of the kids all the time, from when they were babies to when she visits them. She talks about the "unbreakable bond" they have and "how close they are". In fact she posted more about the children since they stopped living with her. She loves the attention she gets from her friends who keep liking and commenting on her posts, validating her and telling her she is a great mum, and in her mind she continues to believe this.
Listening to CM I was constantly reminded of this woman, the inability to answer a straight question; the minimisation; the belief that being biologically related made up for everything and the exaggeration from doing the bare minimum (e.g buying them treat) as the biggest sacrifice they should be praised for.