The Church?

[ChristineD]

I'm confused. Didn't we read reports from neighbors of the church who said they seldom saw anyone at the church? Now, I could make up some stuff like, let's create a church - you donate to me, a legal tax write-off and I'll give you half your money back, or, let's put the house, the car and other things under the name of the Church...

Also, the Internet Archive shows no changes in the Church's web site since about April 22, 2003 ... for example, go ahead and compare the "sunday school" page from 2003 to today:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030422...ver-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm
and
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm

It's not like this place is so busy they can't update their web site for 6 years, is it? But they sure can demonstrate a web site to show legitimacy if audited by the IRS

 

[LinasK]

I'm confused. Didn't we read reports from neighbors of the church who said they seldom saw anyone at the church? Now, I could make up some stuff like, let's create a church - you donate to me, a legal tax write-off and I'll give you half your money back, or, let's put the house, the car and other things under the name of the Church...

Also, the Internet Archive shows no changes in the Church's web site since about April 22, 2003 ... for example, go ahead and compare the "sunday school" page from 2003 to today:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030422...ver-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm
and
http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/SUNDAY_SCHOOL.htm

It's not like this place is so busy they can't update their web site for 6 years, is it? But they sure can demonstrate a web site to show legitimacy if audited by the IRS

Excellent points, and Welcome to WS!:clap::clap::clap:

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I think a smaller church could draw some people who don't feel comfortable in larger groups, people who don't have vehicles, people who have different beliefs aligned with the teachings there, and other factors.

I am not ready to toss the entire congregation under the bus here. They could be some good people who are just as outraged as we are about this and who did nothing except try to find a building to pray and read the Bible with others.

 

[LinasK]

I think a smaller church could draw some people who don't feel comfortable in larger groups, people who don't have vehicles, people who have different beliefs aligned with the teachings there, and other factors.

I am not ready to toss the entire congregation under the bus here. They could be some good people who are just as outraged as we are about this and who did nothing except try to find a building to pray and read the Bible with others.

Except that people without vehicles would be the ones from Orchard Estates as that is the only permanent housing withing walking distance- I'm not counting Microtel residents, and IIRC, there weren't many of them who were members. The ones who don't want to belong to a large group/ have different beliefs- to me could fit a pedo cover. Just saying...

 

[SeriouslySearching]

There are NO other suspects in this case. For anyone to jump into saying the church is a pedo cover would mean that LE is blind to it after this investigation. I find it difficult to believe they couldn't uncover something if it were the case. They must have talked to the people who attend anything going on with the church and ruled them out in Sandra's abduction, rape, and murder.

 

[ChristineD]

There are NO other suspects in this case. For anyone to jump into saying the church is a pedo cover would mean that LE is blind to it after this investigation. I find it difficult to believe they couldn't uncover something if it were the case. They must have talked to the people who attend anything going on with the church and ruled them out in Sandra's abduction, rape, and murder.

Yes... but read the article from the Tracy Press
"Several Tracy pastors said they don’t know that much about Lawless; he doesn’t join the 15 or 20 other pastors in town for Thursday prayer breakfasts...No one in the neighborhood surrounding Orchard Estates said they attend the Baptist church .... About a dozen neighbors said they don’t know anyone who does and that it has a tiny congregation...Folks from a Jehovah’s Witness church across the street from Clover Road Baptist said they've never talked to anyone from the congregation. Pastors, members and elders of a handful of other churches in northern Tracy said the same thing."
http://www.tracypress.com/printer_friendly/2261962

 

[xTiffanyTerror]

I seriously got hit with a wave of nausea reading that.

It goes with what I have thought all along though. I believe that this is a family wide problem of sex abuse, starting with the good old pastor. I think that he abused MH, or possibly her father who abused her. I had suspicions that maybe the pastor stays out of it in the way of physical evidence by having MH commit the crimes as he films/watches. Sick I know but that is the way things are looking to me. Plus depending on how late into adulthood she was abused, he could still have a very powerful hold over her psychologically. Granted none of this is proven, its just a hunch. I feel like this family/the pastor uses the church as a cover for far more sinister things, which is just awful. Though I did find it slightly odd that the LE allowed the church to be used again considering they are still gathering evidence. Even though it didn't appear to have fingerprints etc....the pastor could have still removed things etc. Just a thought.

With the addition of this other family member arrested and the police poking around in other states.....I have a feeling the **** is about to hit the fan. I hope it is sooner rather than later so this family/families? can get some justice.

Q - I read the stuff about the family member so quickly I didn't notice if it mentioned his relationship to MH and the pastor?

 

[suejay40]

I found this history of where Pastor Lane Lawless has been preaching. Will just include the link, so no names mentioned.

http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Pastor1.html

Looking to see if any of the Pastor's other children are related to Timothy Lawless.

 

[desert]

I found this history of where Pastor Lane Lawless has been preaching. Will just include the link, so no names mentioned.

http://www.clover-road-baptist-church.com/Pastor1.html

Looking to see if any of the Pastor's other children are related to Timothy Lawless.

Wow. This is a direct link to the rest of their web site, which they took down just recently. You can check the links at the bottom. I remember visiting it initially--now, it is a one-page site with no links at all. Interesting. There still isn't much there, though.

 

[suejay40]

Per Intellius it looks like there is a Clifford Lane Lawless and a separate Lane Lawless, maybe father and son. I'm not sure which one they are investigating. Just to make it a little more confusing, there is also listed a Clane Lawless along with a Connie Lane Lawless. Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Momtofour]

Per Intellius it looks like there is a Clifford Lane Lawless and a separate Lane Lawless, maybe father and son. I'm not sure which one they are investigating. Just to make it a little more confusing, there is also listed a Clane Lawless along with a Connie Lane Lawless. Doesn't make much sense to me.

I think his full name is Clifford Lane Lawless. On prior threads, fellow sleuthers found that he goes by variations such as Clifford Lawless, Cliff Lawless, Lane Lawless, P. Lane Lawless (P. meaning Pastor).

 

[txsvicki]

I think a smaller church could draw some people who don't feel comfortable in larger groups, people who don't have vehicles, people who have different beliefs aligned with the teachings there, and other factors.

I am not ready to toss the entire congregation under the bus here. They could be some good people who are just as outraged as we are about this and who did nothing except try to find a building to pray and read the Bible with others.

I agree. The Missionary Baptist Church in my town, where my Aunt was a member is small, very respectable, and has been on the corner of a very busy street for probably 50 years and they never had to build a bigger fancier building in the newer part of town. People whose family were in this Baptist branch might move to town and want to join, but most go to Southern Baptist where they have more social things going on and are much bigger. And when I visited Vacation Bible School and some Sundays as a kid, most of her in town inlaws were members and I imagine other families also. Heck, the Funadamentalist Baptist I was a member of had most of Buddy Holly's family attending there. It's not a cult.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Yes... but read the article from the Tracy Press
"Several Tracy pastors said they don’t know that much about Lawless; he doesn’t join the 15 or 20 other pastors in town for Thursday prayer breakfasts...No one in the neighborhood surrounding Orchard Estates said they attend the Baptist church .... About a dozen neighbors said they don’t know anyone who does and that it has a tiny congregation...Folks from a Jehovah’s Witness church across the street from Clover Road Baptist said they've never talked to anyone from the congregation. Pastors, members and elders of a handful of other churches in northern Tracy said the same thing."
http://www.tracypress.com/printer_friendly/2261962

I have read it. It doesn't convince me that there are not people who go to that church. It doesn't convince me they are suspect in a pedo ring because someone said they have never talked to the members, the pastor doesn't hang out with the other pastors in town, or that people haven't stepped forward to make themselves fodder for the media by admitting they attend the little church.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree. The Missionary Baptist Church in my town, where my Aunt was a member is small, very respectable, and has been on the corner of a very busy street for probably 50 years and they never had to build a bigger fancier building in the newer part of town. People whose family were in this Baptist branch might move to town and want to join, but most go to Southern Baptist where they have more social things going on and are much bigger. And when I visited Vacation Bible School and some Sundays as a kid, most of her in town inlaws were members and I imagine other families also. Heck, the Fundamentalist Baptist I was a member of had most of Buddy Holly's family attending there. It's not a cult.

Exactly. They are not the type of church that is all showy and fancy. This church seems typical of many Missionary Baptist churches.

They certainly aren't a cult.

imo

 

[ChristineD]

I have read it. It doesn't convince me that there are not people who go to that church. It doesn't convince me they are suspect in a pedo ring because someone said they have never talked to the members, the pastor doesn't hang out with the other pastors in town, or that people haven't stepped forward to make themselves fodder for the media by admitting they attend the little church.

Not disagreeing with you, Seriously. In fact I am leaning toward tax shelter, not pedo ring. There was another report that I did not quote that said neighbors said they seldom saw anyone around the premises.

 

[LinasK]

Why couldn't it be both- tax shelter and pedo membership? Why does it have to be one or the other???

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Not disagreeing with you, Seriously. In fact I am leaning toward tax shelter, not pedo ring. There was another report that I did not quote that said neighbors said they seldom saw anyone around the premises.

I don't think there is anything odd about not getting with the other Pastors in the area either. Iirc, MB are independent churches who are autonomous and each church has their own belief system.

I believe they have members that have been members there for decades and most likely those members still live close by the church. The membership has probably shrunk since others have moved away as Tracy has grown. I would think the church had long been paid for and the members made sure Pastor Lawless still got his pay and that they had enough money to keep it up and running.

The members they do have could have quite a bit of money and tithe faithfully.

I wouldn't think it would take much money to keep the church open.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Why couldn't it be both- tax shelter and pedo membership? Why does it have to be one or the other???

Imo, there hasnt been any evidence that a pedo ring exists at this church.

No arrest.

Also is anyone here local?

Here's a summary of what KCRA said on the 6pm news:

CLL was never the primary focus of the FBI investigation of the church in Clarkston, WA.

The FBI was more interested in the prior pastor of the church, Dale Johnson, who may be known by CLL.

There is no record that CLL ever regularly attended the church in Clarkston, WA.


I think we are being fed erroneous information where the media are not verifying their stories and just want to be the first out there to throw the trashloid stuff in the mix.

Last night I read that the police said they had no record of any abuse allegation ever being made against Pastor Lawless. It has morphed today into saying that officials said there were no arrest or conviction. That is not what was said yesterday (LE has no record of abuse allegations being filed against CLL.)

It sickens me when the media does this and they hardly ever come back and right their wrong misinformation.

Supposedly the other guy arrested is not kin to MH and that is a rumor swirling too.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I found the link.

http://www.kcra.com/news/19269800/detail.html

Creutzberg said he was unsure if FBI agents visited First Church of God in relation to the earlier investigation or the Cantu case.

After going through records, Creutzberg said he couldn’t find any evidence that Lawless ever regularly attended the church.

Instead of Lawless, Creutzberg said the FBI was more interested in talking with a former pastor named Dale Johnson.

"He just left town, and we never heard from him again," Clarkson resident Pamela Verges said.

 

[cleo612]

I believe that the FBI and LE would have been remiss if they had not checked out every possibility in this case. Early on, they would have concentrated on both the Pastor and Melissa. The FBI's stats show a female is not a normal perp in this type of crime. We have been hearing this since they arrested MH.

They would have been looking for a male to be involved and Pastor Lawless fit the bill to be a possible suspect with his access to the church, Melissa, etc. It doesn't mean they found anything or anyone to point the finger at the Pastor. Since he wasn't arrested with his granddaughter and LE maintains she acted alone, I would say there was no evidence found to include him.

Although I am loathe to believe anything that MH has stated, didn't she make an almost adamant statement to the press that there was no way her grandfather was involved in little Sandra's disappearance? This would have been prior to her arrest. She completely disavowed any connection her grandfather might have had in this whole tragedy.

Either she was speaking the truth or she was protecting her ailing grandfather.