The case for murder

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Cynic, what do you think of the re-enactment - scientifically?

My view is that the re-enactment was a good visual simile to the actual crime scene, although the actors and designers had to make minor adjustments.

I think the dramatization could be redone more accurately if they had access to the actual crime scene -- if they were allowed to do the re-enactment at the Spreckels mansion with the identical bed, carpet, balcony, etc. and if they had used a test dummy in similar shape as RZ's instead of a bulk, cylindrical weight.

But all in all, I thought their taking into account the varying weights and height of hanging drop presented a fairly accurate depiction of the distance of bed movement had RZ actually jumped off balcony to a hanging death.

To me it was reasonable evidence discrediting RZ committed suicide.

Appears its too late for a real re-enactment given the mansion has been emptied and sold to new owners. Just a coincidence, of course. JMO.

These people thought they were so clever, but they'll spend the next few years under investigation and in court. I hope Rebecca's family pursues a civil case against them, even if the case isn't reopened or the Shacknai's are found not guilty in a criminal trial.
 
So the sister did come over for a "chat."
Meanwhile, police trained to gauge affect and mood didn't see RZ as suicidal.

One thing I'd like to know is whether anyone has examined JS's or AS's rental history with Netflix or Blockbuster, or wherever they had a habit of renting or buying movies. Someone upthread mentioned that this death resembles a scene in a horror movie, with a hanging of an Asian woman staged to look like a suicide. (IIRC)

Can anyone find that movie?
 
Quick reminder of important evidence



http://www.cbs8.com/story/15505829/s...to-be-unsealed

"Dina returned to the hospital on July 12, 2011, at about 1800 hours. Rebecca and Adam came to the hospital to pick up Jonah and his friend, Howard. They left thehospital, dropped offHoward attheairport then went to eatsome dinner. Jonah returned to the hospital around 2000 hours and Dina was still there. Rebecca and Adam returned to the residence in Coronado.

(Jonah) left the hospital around 0100 hours and went to Ronald McDonald House. Dina stayed at the hospital. (Jonah) returned to the hospital on July 13, 2011 at about 0700 hours and Dina was still there."

...if jonah was supposed to have left rebecca a voice mail @ 12:30, that maxie's condition was "grave and death was imminent"--( causing her to kill herself over it )---it would make no sense for him to then leave maxie's side--and crash @ the ronald mcdonald house for 6 hours. __________________ my opinion...........and i happen to agree with it.....
 
Quick reminder of important evidence



http://www.cbs8.com/story/15505829/s...to-be-unsealed

"Dina returned to the hospital on July 12, 2011, at about 1800 hours. Rebecca and Adam came to the hospital to pick up Jonah and his friend, Howard. They left the hospital, dropped off Howard at the airport then went to eat some dinner. Jonah returned to the hospital around 2000 hours and Dina was still there. Rebecca and Adam returned to the residence in Coronado.

(Jonah) left the hospital around 0100 hours and went to Ronald McDonald House. Dina stayed at the hospital. (Jonah) returned to the hospital on July 13, 2011 at about 0700 hours and Dina was still there."

...if jonah was supposed to have left rebecca a voice mail @ 12:30, that maxie's condition was "grave and death was imminent"--( causing her to kill herself over it )---it would make no sense for him to then leave maxie's side--and crash @ the ronald mcdonald house for 6 hours. __________________ my opinion...........and i happen to agree with it.....


I'm not sure it makes sense that Jonah would call Rebecca before leaving the hospital anyway, but all this timeline stuff just made me think.

Did SDSO actually say Dina was definitely at the hospital between 2000 and 0100? In other words between 8pm the night before Rebecca's death until 1 am the next morning? Or did they say she was there the time Rebecca would have committed suicide. Leary of their wording. Seems odd both Dina and Jonah would be at the hospital together for 5 hours given what we have seen as their MO during this period of trading shifts.
 
I'm not sure it makes sense that Jonah would call Rebecca before leaving the hospital anyway, but all this timeline stuff just made me think.

Did SDSO actually say Dina was definitely at the hospital between 2000 and 0100? In other words between 8pm the night before Rebecca's death until 1 am the next morning? Or did they say she was there the time Rebecca would have committed suicide. Leary of their wording. Seems odd both Dina and Jonah would be at the hospital together for 5 hours given what we have seen as their MO during this period of trading shifts.

I had the same question, Time! We have nebulous reports as to their whereabouts. A previous version has Dina on the way to the hospital as JS is texting her of Rebecca's death. I hope the security tapes given to AB help to clear this up.
 
I had the same question, Time! We have nebulous reports as to their whereabouts. A previous version has Dina on the way to the hospital as JS is texting her of Rebecca's death. I hope the security tapes given to AB help to clear this up.


Seems like the careful wording is meant to obsfucate!

I'm also reminded that there were two hours of Jonah's time/whereabouts unaccounted for right after returning the good Dr. to the airport - at least they were last I went through all the time stuff.
 
Cynic, what do you think of the re-enactment - scientifically?

My view is that the re-enactment was a good visual simile to the actual crime scene, although the actors and designers had to make minor adjustments.

I think the dramatization could be redone more accurately if they had access to the actual crime scene -- if they were allowed to do the re-enactment at the Spreckels mansion with the identical bed, carpet, balcony, etc. and if they had used a test dummy in similar shape as RZ's instead of a bulk, cylindrical weight.

But all in all, I thought their taking into account the varying weights and height of hanging drop presented a fairly accurate depiction of the distance of bed movement had RZ actually jumped off balcony to a hanging death.

To me it was reasonable evidence discrediting RZ committed suicide.
A number of things crossed my mind as I watched the reenactment.
Firstly, I was disgusted, yet again, with law enforcement in this case. We are watching a low budget reenactment with issues stemming from the lack of access to the crime scene when the opportunity to do a proper reenactment was squandered by the SDCSD.
The CBS8 reenactment was an unusual mix of attention to detail in some areas and oversights in others.
The most impressive bit of detective work was tracking down the maker of the bed frame.
The chief oversight can be summed up in one word – friction. Unfortunately, this severely damaged the validity of the reenactment.
There are three areas where friction would play an important part in the crime scene.
The point of contact between the rope and railing.
The point of contact between the rope and the closed balcony door.
The coefficient of friction (COF) between the bed and the rug.
In physics, the coefficient of friction is important and there are tables to show how different substances interact. The table below gives a sampling and show the difference between getting two things to begin to move (coefficient of static friction) while in contact with each other and the change in friction once movement has begun (coefficient of kinetic friction.)
Usually, although there are exceptions, the force required to initially move an object and overcome the forces of friction and gravity are higher than the force required to keep it moving.
In a situation such as we find in the crime scene there would definitely be a higher static coefficient of friction between the bed and rug because the bed had sunk into the rug over time.
Any difference between the crime scene and the reenactment with respect to kinetic or sliding friction would be down to the pile depth and material type of the rugs which may or may not be significant.
http://www.freeonlineresearchpapers.com/friction-sports
Just as a further illustration, if the bed was on a hard marble floor, it would have of course slid much further.

The rope is exposed to two areas in which it contacts other items and would be subject to friction.
The first contact is with the closed door on the balcony. This is about a 10 degree angle of contact with the edge of the wood door.
The second contact is with the top of the 1 inch iron balcony railing. This is a very significant source of braking friction in the crime scene.
The rope contacts the inner edge of the railing at about a 11 degree angle and then forms a 90 degree angle with the outer edge.
If the rope was going over a round tube, rather than the two relatively harsh edges of the railing, there would be a nice formula to determine the amount of force transmitted from the fall back to the bed.
That formula is FORCE@BED= FORCE * e^- coefficient of friction * angle of contact
http://www.girep.org/proceedings/se...perimental_Example_from_Physics_in_Sports.pdf

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bollard-force-d_1296.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/friction-coefficients-d_778.html

http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/frictioncoefficients.htm

The reenactment differs in two important respects:
The rope does not make contact with an obstructing door edge and a sharp-angled railing edge, but rather only with a well rounded beam shown in the picture below.
If this difference created a difference in the coefficient of friction of 0.2 (as an example,) then the change in force would be a huge 42%

e8pibr.jpg


Another less important difference is that the point where the rope was tied to the bed and the contact point over the railing are offset in the crime scene but directly in line in the reenactment.
There also appears to be a considerable difference in the dimensions of the rooms involved.
At the Spreckels mansion, the distance from the where the rope was tied to the bed and the railing was about 15 feet and 7.5 inches (before the bed moved 7.5 inches) and in the reenactment, I would say that the distance would be about 8 or 9 feet. The distance of the drop was 9 feet and 2 inches as opposed to 7 feet and that doesn’t take into consideration the differences in the center of gravity between RZ and the dimensions of the punching bag used in the reenactment. This means different rope lengths; 24.5 feet in the RZ case versus about 15 or 16 feet in the reenactment. (The longer the length of the rope, the more “strain energy” it is able to absorb.)
The shorter distance also changed some angles. In the screen shot below you will see that the rope makes an angle of about 20 degrees from the bedpost up toward the balcony.
This would be consistent with my guess of an approximate 8 foot distance from the bed to the rail.
Mathematically, a right angle triangle with sides, 8 feet, 3 feet and 8.5 feet will have an angle of 20.5 degrees.
The crime scene had an angle of about 11 degrees.
This affects the amount of force required to move the bed by about 15% (However, because of the 11 degree contact between the closed door and the rope in the crime scene, as opposed to no such contact in the reenactment, the overall difference would be zero.)

14kfk75.jpg


Earlier I spoke of the coefficient of friction (COF) with respect to the rug. Unquestionably, the fact that the bed had sunk into the rug would mean that there would be a higher static coefficient of friction.
By way of comparison, the primary change that the reenactment tried to make in order to prove that the bed would move a significant distance was adding weight to increase the overall weight of the bed to 400 pounds in tests 2 and 3. This change would mean that 20% more force would be required to move the bed.
Because of the issues I’ve previously outlined, a change in the weight of the bed would help but in order to begin to approximate the force required, the overall weight needed would likely be as high as 550 pounds and that would be just to compensate for a static COF difference of 0.3 between rugs and the lack of an indentation from the bed “sinking in.”

I admire the time and effort that was put forth in undertaking the reenactment, but it’s unfortunate that they didn’t work with a technical consultant or engineer in order to more accurately simulate the incident.
 
A number of things crossed my mind as I watched the reenactment.
Firstly, I was disgusted, yet again, with law enforcement in this case. We are watching a low budget reenactment with issues stemming from the lack of access to the crime scene when the opportunity to do a proper reenactment was squandered by the SDCSD.
The CBS8 reenactment was an unusual mix of attention to detail in some areas and oversights in others.
The most impressive bit of detective work was tracking down the maker of the bed frame.
The chief oversight can be summed up in one word – friction. Unfortunately, this severely damaged the validity of the reenactment.
There are three areas where friction would play an important part in the crime scene.
The point of contact between the rope and railing.
The point of contact between the rope and the closed balcony door.
The coefficient of friction (COF) between the bed and the rug.
In physics, the coefficient of friction is important and there are tables to show how different substances interact. The table below gives a sampling and show the difference between getting two things to begin to move (coefficient of static friction) while in contact with each other and the change in friction once movement has begun (coefficient of kinetic friction.)
Usually, although there are exceptions, the force required to initially move an object and overcome the forces of friction and gravity are higher than the force required to keep it moving.
In a situation such as we find in the crime scene there would definitely be a higher static coefficient of friction between the bed and rug because the bed had sunk into the rug over time.
Any difference between the crime scene and the reenactment with respect to kinetic or sliding friction would be down to the pile depth and material type of the rugs which may or may not be significant.
http://www.freeonlineresearchpapers.com/friction-sports
Just as a further illustration, if the bed was on a hard marble floor, it would have of course slid much further.

The rope is exposed to two areas in which it contacts other items and would be subject to friction.
The first contact is with the closed door on the balcony. This is about a 10 degree angle of contact with the edge of the wood door.
The second contact is with the top of the 1 inch iron balcony railing. This is a very significant source of braking friction in the crime scene.
The rope contacts the inner edge of the railing at about a 11 degree angle and then forms a 90 degree angle with the outer edge.
If the rope was going over a round tube, rather than the two relatively harsh edges of the railing, there would be a nice formula to determine the amount of force transmitted from the fall back to the bed.
That formula is FORCE@BED= FORCE * e^- coefficient of friction * angle of contact
http://www.girep.org/proceedings/se...perimental_Example_from_Physics_in_Sports.pdf

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bollard-force-d_1296.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/friction-coefficients-d_778.html

http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/frictioncoefficients.htm

The reenactment differs in two important respects:
The rope does not make contact with an obstructing door edge and a sharp-angled railing edge, but rather only with a well rounded beam shown in the picture below.
If this difference created a difference in the coefficient of friction of 0.2 (as an example,) then the change in force would be a huge 42%

e8pibr.jpg


Another less important difference is that the point where the rope was tied to the bed and the contact point over the railing are offset in the crime scene but directly in line in the reenactment.
There also appears to be a considerable difference in the dimensions of the rooms involved.
At the Spreckels mansion, the distance from the where the rope was tied to the bed and the railing was about 15 feet and 7.5 inches (before the bed moved 7.5 inches) and in the reenactment, I would say that the distance would be about 8 or 9 feet. The distance of the drop was 9 feet and 2 inches as opposed to 7 feet and that doesn’t take into consideration the differences in the center of gravity between RZ and the dimensions of the punching bag used in the reenactment. This means different rope lengths; 24.5 feet in the RZ case versus about 15 or 16 feet in the reenactment. (The longer the length of the rope, the more “strain energy” it is able to absorb.)
The shorter distance also changed some angles. In the screen shot below you will see that the rope makes an angle of about 20 degrees from the bedpost up toward the balcony.
This would be consistent with my guess of an approximate 8 foot distance from the bed to the rail.
Mathematically, a right angle triangle with sides, 8 feet, 3 feet and 8.5 feet will have an angle of 20.5 degrees.
The crime scene had an angle of about 11 degrees.
This affects the amount of force required to move the bed by about 15% (However, because of the 11 degree contact between the closed door and the rope in the crime scene, as opposed to no such contact in the reenactment, the overall difference would be zero.)

14kfk75.jpg


Earlier I spoke of the coefficient of friction (COF) with respect to the rug. Unquestionably, the fact that the bed had sunk into the rug would mean that there would be a higher static coefficient of friction.
By way of comparison, the primary change that the reenactment tried to make in order to prove that the bed would move a significant distance was adding weight to increase the overall weight of the bed to 400 pounds in tests 2 and 3. This change would mean that 20% more force would be required to move the bed.
Because of the issues I’ve previously outlined, a change in the weight of the bed would help but in order to begin to approximate the force required, the overall weight needed would likely be as high as 550 pounds and that would be just to compensate for a static COF difference of 0.3 between rugs and the lack of an indentation from the bed “sinking in.”

I admire the time and effort that was put forth in undertaking the reenactment, but it’s unfortunate that they didn’t work with a technical consultant or engineer in order to more accurately simulate the incident.

Thanks Cynic for the comprehensive analysis! :) I agree about the need to take friction and room dimensions into account for a more accurate re-enactment and analysis.

Can you use pure math & physics with what you know about the room, Rebecca Zahau, the doors, etc. to determine whether the 7.5 inches of bed shift was possible without having to re-enact entire crime scene?
 
For me, this case seems to have been determined very fast. I think Rebecca's death was sized up very fast. Actually, everything that has happened has been tidied up too fast but I live in AZ, not CA. Just sayin'... Thanks Cynic! Awesome.

Prayers for all the family. They need it.
 
I haven't been able to keep track of this case (and I daresay many others that I try to follow). :(

I understand there are some Dr. Phil episodes that have aired recently and wonder if they will be archived (online) so I can watch.



 
I haven't been able to keep track of this case (and I daresay many others that I try to follow). :(

I understand there are some Dr. Phil episodes that have aired recently and wonder if they will be archived (online) so I can watch.
Part one:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-K7fJggP3U"]DrPZ 1A - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY_UNhJpaj8"]DrPZ 1B - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-gu_gyi674"]DrPZ 1C - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RLwbp6ITQs"]DrPZ 1D - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtaqmPLvz64"]DrPZ 1E - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBMBnVKdmiU"]DrPZ 1F - YouTube[/ame]

Part two:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaoFcvEFuwI"]DrPZ2A - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw4oQB9rJIM"]DrPZ2B - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ7xJMr-E1o"]DrPZ2C - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX8HRqXoxdY"]DrPZ2D - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKfY3a--tP0"]DrPZ2E - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GldEtLyWqn4"]DrPZ2F - YouTube[/ame]
 
Thanks Cynic for the comprehensive analysis! :) I agree about the need to take friction and room dimensions into account for a more accurate re-enactment and analysis.

Can you use pure math & physics with what you know about the room, Rebecca Zahau, the doors, etc. to determine whether the 7.5 inches of bed shift was possible without having to re-enact entire crime scene?
IMO, the most accurate way to determine the feasibility of a 7.5 inch bed movement would be a reenactment at the crime scene with another rope of the precise type that was used.
The second best way would be a theoretical approach using physics and math with information that law enforcement could have obtained (if they were so inclined) with their own resources, and with respect to some of the more technical issues, with the help of consultants. This information would include:
The static and dynamic coefficient of friction between the bed and rug.
The dynamic coefficient of friction between the rail and rope
The dynamic coefficient of friction between the balcony door and rope.
The modulus of the rope.
The weight of the bed etc.
The least accurate, and unfortunately the one we are stuck with, is a theoretical approach using physics and math without knowing some of the crucial variables listed above.
That said, in answer to your question, the 7.5 inches of travel is definitely viable given large enough coefficients of friction.
 
Jut got this account and wanted to post a quick reply. Hey all!

Regarding the cell phone and the erased message from the husband. Did they do any fingerprint tests on the phone itself?

I was listening to the twin sisters interview and about 2-3 minutes in she goes off and repeatedly explains that Rebecca 'gave me her phone in the car' so she could check directions or something.

It seemed strange to me that she would do this. If it was me I'm not sure I would even think of this minor detail. And if I did I might just say 'I was using the phone to find X' not explain over and over that the victim gave me her phone for such a little thing.
 
Jut got this account and wanted to post a quick reply. Hey all!

Regarding the cell phone and the erased message from the husband. Did they do any fingerprint tests on the phone itself?

I was listening to the twin sisters interview and about 2-3 minutes in she goes off and repeatedly explains that Rebecca 'gave me her phone in the car' so she could check directions or something.

It seemed strange to me that she would do this. If it was me I'm not sure I would even think of this minor detail. And if I did I might just say 'I was using the phone to find X' not explain over and over that the victim gave me her phone for such a little thing.

Good point about the unusual statement by the ex-wife's sister. When listening to the same interview, I also found it curious that she mentioned that, when she was at JS mansion, she looked into the back yard but didn't touch the gate/fence. A rather odd thing to say. You're being interviewed about what you were doing at someone's home who had allegedly committed suicide and all you can talk about is how you didn't touch the gate?
 
Jut got this account and wanted to post a quick reply. Hey all!

Regarding the cell phone and the erased message from the husband. Did they do any fingerprint tests on the phone itself?

I was listening to the twin sisters interview and about 2-3 minutes in she goes off and repeatedly explains that Rebecca 'gave me her phone in the car' so she could check directions or something.

It seemed strange to me that she would do this. If it was me I'm not sure I would even think of this minor detail. And if I did I might just say 'I was using the phone to find X' not explain over and over that the victim gave me her phone for such a little thing.
Welcome to Websleuths, ufos8mycow!
 
Jut got this account and wanted to post a quick reply. Hey all!

Regarding the cell phone and the erased message from the husband. Did they do any fingerprint tests on the phone itself?

I was listening to the twin sisters interview and about 2-3 minutes in she goes off and repeatedly explains that Rebecca 'gave me her phone in the car' so she could check directions or something.

It seemed strange to me that she would do this. If it was me I'm not sure I would even think of this minor detail. And if I did I might just say 'I was using the phone to find X' not explain over and over that the victim gave me her phone for such a little thing.
I presume she was concerned her DNA or fingerprints might be found on the phone. Of course she was concerned for nothing, as LE decided this was suicide and probably didn't test the phone for DNA and fingerprints at all.
 
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