GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #12

[tomkat]

Sorry, I don't mean to be gross or disrespectful but here are my thoughts on this. According to this site: How much does an average adult torso weigh? - Straight Dope Message Board

The trunk of the body accounts for approximately 41.6% of the total body weight. I don't know Lauren's weight but I'll guess she was about 150 lbs given her height and that she was athletic. That puts the torso at about 62 lbs (maybe less considering exsanguination). SMD was 6', 150 lbs at the time he was arrested. I don't know if he could have easily moved a 62 lb torso down a flight of stairs. (Also I'm not a good judge of weight so I'm not even sure if 150 is a good guess for Lauren's weight)..

I know there has been no indication that the torso was not intact, but I wonder if it's possible that it was moved in pieces (sorry). Although at his arraignment, I think an investigator mentioned finding the torso wrapped in 5 plastic bags and he might have worded that differently if the torso wasn't intact.

50 lbs isnt that heavy, so he cuold probalby carry 50-70, but it would require probably throwing over the shoulder but if it was in several bags, that's more than one trip............. what is more obvious? Or did it matter? ALso, that was the last night and no time for further dismembering.

 

[bessie]

I have read the "frozen torso theory" and the "torso pieces theory" posted recently and the "I dont see how he could carry a torso down the stairs" line of thought.

I appreciate the ideas and theories shared here on Lauren's WS threads.
However, I am sticking to the early theory of Lauren’s case:
this was a lust murder which Angel identified and proposed in the very first WS threads.

I don’t think he froze her torso or cut it up. He was using the torso for his purposes. He kept her as long as he possibly could which was one day too many. He did not want to part with HER.

Another thing, when we as good conscience law abiding people, attempt to conceive of HOW he committed this crime in her apartment, we simply cannot. It is impossible for us to understand how his mind thinks. We have a conscience and he does not. He cannot relate to love and caring. We do.

In my mind, there is no doubt that McD murdered Lauren in her apartment using exactly what he said he would to subdue his victim: chloroform.

Everything was on his side:
It was lock-down study time for the upcoming bar exam - good timing for law school graduates to drop off the social radar. Lauren was taken completely by surprise, secondly by force, and she was most likely drugged with chloroform then dragged to the bathtub. Once she was subdued, he could have easily carried out the rest of his evil deed right there in her bath tub. Not nearly as much clean up when you plan it well and have an totally unsuspecting victim who has always been kind and shown sympathy for you.

I do believe that night, Jun 25 - 26, did not go as smoothly has he had originally planned due to the fact that there was blood found in her apt plus he had scratches on his stomach when LE arrested him on July 1 for burglary charges.

We all are aware from his SoL posts and from Thaddeus Money's interview, he had A murder well planned. He had 4 days - time on his side - to clean up and transport her body parts.

It only takes a minute to haul a garbage bag down a set of stairs, even if it is heavy. Gravity is working with you. Besides, what are the odds that anyone would see him in the middle of the night? Low odds. I have driven in and out of Barristers Hall Apts. - it is shaded with trees and is a much smaller and secluded area than the photos portray. He could have easily moved her down those stairs in the midnight hours. No one was watching; no one was expecting a murder. The fact is, we have a difficult time imagining any of this. But he was set on committing the perfect murder. His adrenalin was pumping that night; he had determination and strength working for him in full steam.

We cannot conceive of this scenario in our minds, but it was no problem for McD. He had the job wrapped up and enjoyed the reality of it. He was so confident that while her torso was in the trash can next to his apt and LE was swarming the apt grounds, he was on TV being interviewed! Now that takes a lot of confidence – “I am waaaay smarter than the rest of you.”

McD planned this murder and had the sociopathic confidence to actually do it.
However, he miscalulated. He got caught. Evidence has been collected.
Personally, I rest assured that the Macon LE have what they need to prove it.

This post is merely my opinion.
I look forward to the day when the truth prevails and some justice is served for Lauren and her family.

Recommended reading from WS earliest Lauren threads:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/40094487/Psychology-of-Lust-Murder

Thanks for bringing forward that link, Sandstorm. When I posted excerpts from the book back in August, we weren't aware of McD's internet posts, nor had we heard Money's allegations. Considering what has been confirmed since then, i.e., the violent fantasies and lack of social relationships, along with the crime committed close to home and the delayed and haphazard disposal of a portion of the remains, it has become more evident that McD fits the profile of an asocial disorganized killer.

I think your post is spot on. The logistics were not as complex as it might appear to us. We now know that he had given a great deal of thought to the notion of murder and how to efficiently execute a homicide. Therefore, he left behind a minimal amount of evidence. The fact that the torso remained behind, so to speak, is a clue to his "disorganized" mindset and his reluctance to let go.

 

[bessie]

It is very possible that a K9 alert was noted at those specific locations.
It's also possible that they took samples for fiber analysis to compare to fibers found elsewhere. Something as simple as a high traffic location vs a low traffic location can make a difference.
Or another investigative tool (such as the luminol) could have indicated something at those locations.

Were the apartments fully furnished at that time?

Oriah, the apartments were furnished. Lauren was planning to move the next week. I think it was mentioned that she'd started packing, but she hadn't moved anything out of the apartment yet. Her friends mentioned that everything was in place. Keys and purse were on the sofa. I don't know what furniture McD had in his apartment, but we saw bags and bags of evidence carried out by the investigators, and pictures of his family moving the rest of his things out later.

Regarding the bolded comment, do you mean because a carpet sample from a low traffic area would be purer, with few particles of foreign matter, so easier to match? Or that a high traffic area might contain traces of matter that could be matched to matter in carpet samples from locations outside the apartment? Even besides blood, if a substance found in McD's carpet was also found in Lauren's bedroom carpet, it would provide a clue that he had been in her bedroom. It wouldn't show up in samples from under the bed, for instance, but perhaps in a path from the door to the bed. I can see where samples from different areas would be important for comparison purposes.

 

[Backwoods]

Not surprisingly, there is mention of Lauren's case in a new (and lengthy) Telegraph/macon.com article about DA Greg Winters' first year in office at this link:
http://www.macon.com/2011/12/05/1811699/bibbs-lead-prosecutor-reflects.html

QUOTE:

Bibb’s lead prosecutor reflects on one year in office

... On June 20, when 27-year-old Lauren Giddings’ dismembered remains where (sic) discovered outside her Georgia Avenue apartment building, Winters was on the scene along with police investigators.

He’s remained involved in the case by representing the prosecution at hearings for Giddings’ accused killer, Stephen Mark McDaniel, appearing at news conferences and meeting with police. ...

...Winters hasn’t said whether he will seek capital punishment in the case. ...

 

[Oriah]

Oriah, the apartments were furnished. Lauren was planning to move the next week. I think it was mentioned that she'd started packing, but she hadn't moved anything out of the apartment yet. Her friends mentioned that everything was in place. Keys and purse were on the sofa. I don't know what furniture McD had in his apartment, but we saw bags and bags of evidence carried out by the investigators, and pictures of his family moving the rest of his things out later.

Regarding the bolded comment, do you mean because a carpet sample from a low traffic area would be purer, with few particles of foreign matter, so easier to match? Or that a high traffic area might contain traces of matter that could be matched to matter in carpet samples from locations outside the apartment? Even besides blood, if a substance found in McD's carpet was also found in Lauren's bedroom carpet, it would provide a clue that he had been in her bedroom. It wouldn't show up in samples from under the bed, for instance, but perhaps in a path from the door to the bed. I can see where samples from different areas would be important for comparison purposes.

Thanks bessie. That was my first thought when I saw the location of the carpet swatches taken. Where the furniture was, what carpet was exposed to foot traffic, etc. It's amazing what carpet picks up- other fibers, hairs, fluids, soils, grasses, gravels, skin cells, food items- gosh, so many things.

If you sit on your sofa watching tv and eating popcorn every night, a forensic exam of the carpet at your feet can probably tell an investigator that, lol.

 

[Backwoods]

Thanks for bringing forward that link, Sandstorm. When I posted excerpts from the book back in August, we weren't aware of McD's internet posts, nor had we heard Money's allegations. Considering what has been confirmed since then, i.e., the violent fantasies and lack of social relationships, along with the crime committed close to home and the delayed and haphazard disposal of a portion of the remains, it has become more evident that McD fits the profile of an asocial disorganized killer.

I think your post is spot on. The logistics were not as complex as it might appear to us. We now know that he had given a great deal of thought to the notion of murder and how to efficiently execute a homicide. Therefore, he left behind a minimal amount of evidence. The fact that the torso remained behind, so to speak, is a clue to his "disorganized" mindset and his reluctance to let go.

bessie, on my "guilty" side of the fence, I do tend toward the lust murder theory ... but, to me, in the schemata given in the book, SM would seem to possibly be sort of a "hybrid" between the two types (the asocial disorganized killer and the nonsocial organized).

Also, something I have thought at times: That he did, at the time of the murder, fit one or the other (or a hybrid version) of the two types, but still in a "developing stage" -- that he was still in the "working up to" acting on his fantasies stage -- perhaps entering L's apartment to snoop and no telling what else (but short of lying in wait to attack her) and she came home unexpectedly -- thus bringing about the "surprised-him-in-her-apartment" scenario that some others have speculated -- and yet, once it was under way, incorporating the elements of what until then had remained a fantasy. Just a possibility -- to me, that might explain why there seems some overlap between the "types" -- because he wasn't fully prepared to carry out the attack at that point (though very familiar in his mind/fantasy with the plan), he might have appeared more disorganized.

I do understand that the asocial disorganized type would more likely favor the attack on "home court", but I still have some thoughts that, possibly, if he is guilty, he might have taken her AWAY from there at the outset... not convinced that would be the case, but I do still consider it a possibility...

And Sandstorm: I understand what you are saying about the keeping and the disposal of the torso, and you may be exactly right. I do think, though, if SM is guilty and this was indeed a lust murder, it's possible he may not have been "hanging on" to the torso at that point (though of course he MAY have been), simply because that feature doesn't appear in all lust murders... so I am able to entertain the possibility that he was in the process of disposing -- "bit by bit", according to the non-detection plan -- and that he may have planned to further reduce the remains, even (as suggested by MaconMom) already had done so, and yes, possibly frozen the portions.

One thing I've often wondered in the past is whether the remains (complete torso or otherwise) may have in fact been in the bin on the first night, when campus security came... in a frozen or refrigerated state ... and just went undetected. I still think that is possible. tomkat posted the other day about an early rumor that the garbage truck worker reported something suspicious ... I had never heard that rumor, and it certainly may be only rumor ... I just always thought "the pickup was late that day", as we have heard. But that did get me wondering about this again -- whether the remains might have already been in the bin.

Since there apparently was some embarrassment for Macon LE about a decision not to respond further to the missing person report (past the campus police response) that night, I can well imagine that a "tip" from a garbage truck worker in the early hours would not be something they'd want to publicize (not saying they would outright lie)... but could be a reason they showed up bright and early in the morning. All of this just conjecture on my part, of course, and JMO.

 

[Oriah]

Great post, Backwoods- thank you.

In an effort to try and use the profile of Lauren's murderer to help lead us to her remains (and being somewhat clueless about criminal profiling beyond my own common sense, and dogs telling me 'this dude is sweating like a pig and breathing heavy') I looked up what ya'll are discussing re: asocial/disorganized vs organized, and found this.

http://www.drtomoconnor.com/4050/4050lect04.htm

Not sure if it is already posted, or if respected in the profiling world- but I did follow up with the footnote publications and it seems to at least be accepted.

Going from the standpoint that McD is guilty- it does certainly seem he would be quite the combo package.

Where does that leave us in terms of the location of Lauren's remains? It breaks my heart that she has not been fully recovered, having seen the pain this causes family and friends of victims in the past.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[pearl]

Great post, Backwoods- thank you.

In an effort to try and use the profile of Lauren's murderer to help lead us to her remains (and being somewhat clueless about criminal profiling beyond my own common sense, and dogs telling me 'this dude is sweating like a pig and breathing heavy') I looked up what ya'll are discussing re: asocial/disorganized vs organized, and found this.

http://www.drtomoconnor.com/4050/4050lect04.htm

Not sure if it is already posted, or if respected in the profiling world- but I did follow up with the footnote publications and it seems to at least be accepted.

Going from the standpoint that McD is guilty- it does certainly seem he would be quite the combo package.

Where does that leave us in terms of the location of Lauren's remains? It breaks my heart that she has not been fully recovered, having seen the pain this causes family and friends of victims in the past.
Thoughts, anyone?

Someone in an earlier thread hypothesized that Lauren's killer (who many of us believe to be SM) was possibly a serial killer in the making who got caught on his first murder. I am basing my observations solely on what I have read on the internet and viewing the infamous interview of SM. We know that he probably has a superior IQ based on his graduating from law school. I think he fits the organized killer category in his personal description and environment. However, the crime has a lot of disorganized elements to it. He wasn't able to be quite as efficient as he thought he could be. I think had he the opportunity, he would have become fully organized in the future. Again, I am in no way qualified to probably even form an educated guess as to this question. I think he paniced (sp?) and disposed of the remains in convenient trash bins located in his comfort region part of Macon, not necessarily his neighborhood. I don't think he ventured far due to his probable need to control the crime scene. He could not do that from a distance. These are, as always, just my opinion.

 

[Backwoods]

Someone in an earlier thread hypothesized that Lauren's killer (who many of us believe to be SM) was possibly a serial killer in the making who got caught on his first murder. I am basing my observations solely on what I have read on the internet and viewing the infamous interview of SM. We know that he probably has a superior IQ based on his graduating from law school. I think he fits the organized killer category in his personal description and environment. However, the crime has a lot of disorganized elements to it. He wasn't able to be quite as efficient as he thought he could be. I think had he the opportunity, he would have become fully organized in the future. Again, I am in no way qualified to probably even form an educated guess as to this question. I think he paniced (sp?) and disposed of the remains in convenient trash bins located in his comfort region part of Macon, not necessarily his neighborhood. I don't think he ventured far due to his probable need to control the crime scene. He could not do that from a distance. These are, as always, just my opinion.

pearl, I am really just using your post above and especially the phrases in it that I bolded as a jumping-off spot, since those phrases made me think again of a couple of questions I've been meaning for a long time to ask. (In other words, this isn't so much a reply to your post -- which I know is more about where the body parts were likely taken, because my questions don't necessarily directly relate to that -- but your post did remind me about this.)

And the questions are to anybody.

Remember the interview -- and here I'm talking about the Fox24 version, the one where we see, after "Body...?", SM walk over to the curb or sidewalk and sit down.

From a couple of places we've heard that SM was walking away from the apartments and the reporter and/or photographer approached him and asked if he would agree to be interviewed. In the article at this link ...

http://www.macon.com/2011/08/07/1657322/man-on-the-street-how-fledgling.html

... there's this account:

QUOTE:

When a weekend weatherman and sometimes-reporter subbing as a cameraman for Macon’s Fox affiliate, WGXA-TV, first spied McDaniel striding across the street, away from the apartments on Georgia Avenue and toward the law school, the cameraman figured the fellow in the dark-blue Billabong T-shirt might be someone worth grabbing.

My first question is: Where was he heading?
...To check his practice-bar-exam score? To meet someone? Just getting a different vantage point on the scene? These next possibilities, if you think he is guilty: Going out and about campus to hear what talk about the crime he could pick up? Going to check for signs of any activity around another disposal site? To dispose of some small incriminating items? What do you all think?

Second question: As SM moves to the curb or sidewalk and sits down, you can fleetingly see that he has something in his left hand -- what is it? I think it may be a water or soft drink bottle, but I have never been able to tell for sure. Maybe some of you have identified it before -- or would be willing to take another look at the video at:


http://www.newscentralga.com/news/local/June-30th-Interview-with-Stephen-McDaniel-126361528.html


(Happens kind of early on, so you wouldn't have to watch very much of it...I know some of you have said you have a problem watching the footage.)

Finally, not a question, really, but just some thoughts -- we know that after he sat down, someone came out from the AT&T building, apparently, and took him inside for 15 minutes or so. I wonder who? And I've always wondered what transpired in there. Was he pretty silent? Did he ask questions about what had transpired with the finding of the body? Did he visit the restroom (thinking, if guilty, he could have flushed drugs or other small items). Just pondering ...

 

[Oriah]

Someone in an earlier thread hypothesized that Lauren's killer (who many of us believe to be SM) was possibly a serial killer in the making who got caught on his first murder. I am basing my observations solely on what I have read on the internet and viewing the infamous interview of SM. We know that he probably has a superior IQ based on his graduating from law school. I think he fits the organized killer category in his personal description and environment. However, the crime has a lot of disorganized elements to it. He wasn't able to be quite as efficient as he thought he could be. I think had he the opportunity, he would have become fully organized in the future. Again, I am in no way qualified to probably even form an educated guess as to this question. I think he paniced (sp?) and disposed of the remains in convenient trash bins located in his comfort region part of Macon, not necessarily his neighborhood. I don't think he ventured far due to his probable need to control the crime scene. He could not do that from a distance. These are, as always, just my opinion.

Thanks, pearl. That certainly explains the landfill search as well as the interest in his grandfather's property.

I don't know why, but I have always felt that this was not a murder using dismemberment as a simple disposal method, as it seems many are. That reinforces the 'organized' aspect to me- and also makes me think that perhaps some remains were not discarded as trash, and are possibly still recoverable.

I wonder about freezers used for stocking game and similar, in areas McD was comfortable in.

 

[pearl]

He could also, theoretically, have gained acess somehow to an abandoned restaurant or store that, through an error on the power company's part, still has electrical power for a freezer or fridge. Also, depending on how handy he is, he could have tapped into the power line of a nearby building. I have heard of people tapping into their neighbor's power supply. I know this is farfetched, but it could (but probably did not) happen.

 

[Backwoods]

Going from the standpoint that McD is guilty- it does certainly seem he would be quite the combo package.

Where does that leave us in terms of the location of Lauren's remains? It breaks my heart that she has not been fully recovered, having seen the pain this causes family and friends of victims in the past.

Thoughts, anyone?

<respectfully snipped, Oriah, for focus>

bbm: To me, one important signpost toward the answer probably lies in what evidence, if any, was found connected to SM's car.

From the article at this link ...


http://www.macon.com/2011/08/10/1660459/mcdaniels-mom-police-focused-on.html#storylink=misearch

...we learned this:

QUOTE:


...His car is being kept behind the Macon Police Crime Lab on Houston Avenue, between Charles and Crisp streets, a couple of blocks south of Eisenhower Parkway.

The car is tucked in the corner of an impound lot, parked facing away from a fence that is shrouded in brush, and can be seen from a Crisp Street resident&#8217;s backyard. ...


What we don't know is whether anything showed up in forensics related to the car. LE knows, though -- and I would have to think what they know in that realm would have some bearing on the searches they've supported -- that they have done or perhaps plan to do.


So I'm wondering if maybe nothing did turn up in the car? It does seem (as suggested in a recent post by pearl) that, if he's the perp, he may have stuck close around, in walking distance -- since the only searches we know of have been of landfills or places he conceivably could have gone on foot.


Oriah, if he did transport parts in his car, HRD dogs would be pretty likely to detect that, right? I know trash bags and such would not hinder them too much -- what about things like large, sealed hard-plastic or metal containers? Still likely they would alert?


One thing about the car question -- SM's mom did report in an interview that just after he was arrested, LE asked her some questions, including whether he was taking any medication, had a mental illness, or had access to another vehicle. Some have said those sound like pretty standard questions, and I agree -- but on the vehicle thing, maybe that does shine a little light ...?


I can't help but think about all the commercial/industrial/institutional dumpsters he could have probably reached on foot. No telling what kind of pick-up schedule some of them are on... Some could have been utilized and emptied before Lauren was even reported missing, maybe. Also -- wonder how far from the apartment complex he would have had to travel to reach a street where residential trash pick-up was on a different day? The possibilities seem kind of daunting to me, and not too encouraging.



And, as you have said before, Oriah -- water. That's a particularly bleak-seeming possibility to me, as far as any detection or recovery at this point.

 

[Backwoods]

Thanks, pearl. That certainly explains the landfill search as well as the interest in his grandfather's property.

I don't know why, but I have always felt that this was not a murder using dismemberment as a simple disposal method, as it seems many are. That reinforces the 'organized' aspect to me- and also makes me think that perhaps some remains were not discarded as trash, and are possibly still recoverable.

I wonder about freezers used for stocking game and similar, in areas McD was comfortable in.

On the other hand -- if he is guilty and you are right about him "keeping" something ... I think there are plenty of the kind of freezers you mention in the general area (I mean, middle Georgia) ... I don't know that there are (or that there aren't, for that matter) any in walking distance, but for that he may have used a car ... or, if the destination/s was/were in Macon, even a city bus ... or a cab...?

 

[tomkat]

bessie, on my "guilty" side of the fence, I do tend toward the lust murder theory ... but, to me, in the schemata given in the book, SM would seem to possibly be sort of a "hybrid" between the two types (the asocial disorganized killer and the nonsocial organized).

Also, something I have thought at times: That he did, at the time of the murder, fit one or the other (or a hybrid version) of the two types, but still in a "developing stage" -- that he was still in the "working up to" acting on his fantasies stage -- perhaps entering L's apartment to snoop and no telling what else (but short of lying in wait to attack her) and she came home unexpectedly -- thus bringing about the "surprised-him-in-her-apartment" scenario that some others have speculated -- and yet, once it was under way, incorporating the elements of what until then had remained a fantasy. Just a possibility -- to me, that might explain why there seems some overlap between the "types" -- because he wasn't fully prepared to carry out the attack at that point (though very familiar in his mind/fantasy with the plan), he might have appeared more disorganized.

I do understand that the asocial disorganized type would more likely favor the attack on "home court", but I still have some thoughts that, possibly, if he is guilty, he might have taken her AWAY from there at the outset... not convinced that would be the case, but I do still consider it a possibility...

And Sandstorm: I understand what you are saying about the keeping and the disposal of the torso, and you may be exactly right. I do think, though, if SM is guilty and this was indeed a lust murder, it's possible he may not have been "hanging on" to the torso at that point (though of course he MAY have been), simply because that feature doesn't appear in all lust murders... so I am able to entertain the possibility that he was in the process of disposing -- "bit by bit", according to the non-detection plan -- and that he may have planned to further reduce the remains, even (as suggested by MaconMom) already had done so, and yes, possibly frozen the portions.

One thing I've often wondered in the past is whether the remains (complete torso or otherwise) may have in fact been in the bin on the first night, when campus security came... in a frozen or refrigerated state ... and just went undetected. I still think that is possible. tomkat posted the other day about an early rumor that the garbage truck worker reported something suspicious ... I had never heard that rumor, and it certainly may be only rumor ... I just always thought "the pickup was late that day", as we have heard. But that did get me wondering about this again -- whether the remains might have already been in the bin.

Since there apparently was some embarrassment for Macon LE about a decision not to respond further to the missing person report (past the campus police response) that night, I can well imagine that a "tip" from a garbage truck worker in the early hours would not be something they'd want to publicize (not saying they would outright lie)... but could be a reason they showed up bright and early in the morning. All of this just conjecture on my part, of course, and JMO.

That "garbage worker" was the FIRST thing I heard/read (?) I thought about that also Backwoods, the body being there a few days prior to pickup in frozen state, you know that actually makes more sense becuase I'd thought of it thawing in the wee hours of the morning until 9 am or such when trash collection was to occur and didnt' seem to be enough time to cause all that odor and flies do you think? Maybe he missed the Tuesday pickup,( if there was one) bagged as it was and frozen, he didnt' think it'd every be discovered if it thawed. Had friends not made it over Wednesday evening, it probably wouldn't have been.

AND WHAT MADE LE go back over there suddenly in the a.m. after an all nighter and just HAPPEN to smell something coming from the trash, why was that not noticed the night before? Either it was just placed there in the bin after midnight, proably 4 a.m.ish .....frozen and thawing.....or just thawed finally after days of being there. Which is more likely?

The LE embarrasment was the next thing I thought too when I heard the reports secondly, they claiming to have found the body.

And all i know about his personality is that he's psycho if he did this but intentionally or unintentionally, I think he surprised her and I dont' think this was very unorganized. Just human error mainly.

Another man with keys in the article below. Maintenance man in this case. Arrested
http://www.windstream.net/news/read...ass&action=2&lang=en&_LT=UNLC_USNWU00L2_UNEWS

 

[tomkat]

Great post, Backwoods- thank you.

In an effort to try and use the profile of Lauren's murderer to help lead us to her remains (and being somewhat clueless about criminal profiling beyond my own common sense, and dogs telling me 'this dude is sweating like a pig and breathing heavy') I looked up what ya'll are discussing re: asocial/disorganized vs organized, and found this.

http://www.drtomoconnor.com/4050/4050lect04.htm

Not sure if it is already posted, or if respected in the profiling world- but I did follow up with the footnote publications and it seems to at least be accepted.

Going from the standpoint that McD is guilty- it does certainly seem he would be quite the combo package.

Where does that leave us in terms of the location of Lauren's remains? It breaks my heart that she has not been fully recovered, having seen the pain this causes family and friends of victims in the past.

Thoughts, anyone?

NEARBY..........since the TORSO was disposed of in the front yard (trash), why would the other parts be that far away..............how about the river?

Across the street was a different landfill, correct? So is all the trash from every neighboring area, that goes into THAT landfill, dumped in the exact location or do other neighboring areas using the same landfill get catergorized into another area of the landfill? I know they can't dump all the trash in the same area from every neighborhood. I was thinking the search in Barrister Hall's landfill was localized to one section of that landfill according to where Barristers hall trash goes into the landfill.

IN other words, has the whole landfill been searched? Or just a portion according to where BH trash went.

 

[Backwoods]

[/b]



Another man with keys in the article below. Maintenance man in this case. Arrested
http://www.windstream.net/news/read...ass&action=2&lang=en&_LT=UNLC_USNWU00L2_UNEWS

<snipped for focus>

OT tomkat, in case you haven't seen them: Jorelys Rivera, the child victim in the case you mentioned, has threads on Websleuths, the latest being at:

Found Deceased GA - Jorely Rivera, 7, Canton 2 Dec 2011 #3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

It is a horrible crime -- and you are right, there are some "echoes" of things so familiar to all of us who have followed Lauren's threads -- not just keys, but also a Georgia apartment complex, body disposal in the trash, a vacant apartment, a brutal, brutal assault and murder.

And this victim is a child. So sad.

 

[Oriah]

Respectfully snipped:

<Oriah, if he did transport parts in his car, HRD dogs would be pretty likely to detect that, right? I know trash bags and such would not hinder them too much -- what about things like large, sealed hard-plastic or metal containers? Still likely they would alert?>

Yes, still likely they would alert. Tupperware and other similar containers (Rubbermaid, etc) are actually often used in training. A sealed metal container- it depends on how sealed, and what kind of metal. Plastic bags, cloth bags, cardboard boxes, etc- yes, an HRD dog should alert.

Your post got me to wondering something else, Backwoods. If McD is guilty of this crime- where are the clothes and shoes he was wearing at the time of the murder (if there were any)?
Were there any fires reported, such as in dumpsters or metal trash cans in the area at the time?

Reason why I wonder is because there is little way to get around an HRD dog alerting to clothing and footwear that has come into contact with human remains. Even wearing decontamination gear, you often end up having to throw away clothing and footwear after working-for example- disaster sites, so that your poor dog isn't alerting to your shoes or gloves or whatever on every new case.
Washing will help- but the nature of this crime would mean a LOT of washing.
I wonder if a dog hit on a laundry machine in the building?

 

[Backwoods]

Respectfully snipped:

<Oriah, if he did transport parts in his car, HRD dogs would be pretty likely to detect that, right? I know trash bags and such would not hinder them too much -- what about things like large, sealed hard-plastic or metal containers? Still likely they would alert?>

Yes, still likely they would alert. Tupperware and other similar containers (Rubbermaid, etc) are actually often used in training. A sealed metal container- it depends on how sealed, and what kind of metal. Plastic bags, cloth bags, cardboard boxes, etc- yes, an HRD dog should alert.

Your post got me to wondering something else, Backwoods. If McD is guilty of this crime- where are the clothes and shoes he was wearing at the time of the murder (if there were any)?
Were there any fires reported, such as in dumpsters or metal trash cans in the area at the time?

Reason why I wonder is because there is little way to get around an HRD dog alerting to clothing and footwear that has come into contact with human remains. Even wearing decontamination gear, you often end up having to throw away clothing and footwear after working-for example- disaster sites, so that your poor dog isn't alerting to your shoes or gloves or whatever on every new case.
Washing will help- but the nature of this crime would mean a LOT of washing.
I wonder if a dog hit on a laundry machine in the building?

Hmmm, I'm thinking maybe Det. Patterson at commitment hearing said the dogs hit in the laundry room, but I am not sure about that. Maybe not -- because I also seem to remember some discussion on here about why they "didn't" hit at storage room off laundry room (where the hacksaw with blood on it was found)...? But none of this am I sure of, Oriah, will have to go back and research, don't want to give you wrong info.

I do know that there have been "rumors" mentioned on here some time back both about burning and about blood on an article of SM's clothing -- but I never knew the details. (Early in the case, some rumors were allowed here and some were not -- had to check with the mods for clearance -- these may have been ones that weren't allowed to be posted in any detail in the threads.)

 

[Oriah]

Thanks, Backwoods. That would explain the interest in the exterior drainage, I guess. I had been thinking of the interior bathroom(s) sink and tub drains and traps, and wondering if drainage was routed the same as the laundry. Seems like they may have been separate lines, though.
Is there outside access to the laundry area? Not the storage/utility room, but the laundry area itself?

 

[bessie]

Thanks, pearl. That certainly explains the landfill search as well as the interest in his grandfather's property.

I don't know why, but I have always felt that this was not a murder using dismemberment as a simple disposal method, as it seems many are. That reinforces the 'organized' aspect to me- and also makes me think that perhaps some remains were not discarded as trash, and are possibly still recoverable.

I wonder about freezers used for stocking game and similar, in areas McD was comfortable in.

rrbm
Hi, Oriah. I've been trying to get back over to this thread for days now. Every time I started to post I was interrupted, and now I can't remember everything I wanted to write :waitasec:. I'll just say that I agree with you and Backwoods that we're looking at a combination of characteristics, and that's more often the rule than the exception.

Regarding the bolded statement, I waver on this one because of McD's various statements about the most foolproof way to dispose of a body is to simply toss it in the trash. (Not his exact words, but pretty close.) Based on that, I sometimes think leaving the torso in the trash can was a means of disposal. If that's true, he came very close to succeeding. Another hour or so, and the trash would've been picked up, and we'd still be wondering if LG was dead or alive. But it was also pretty sloppy, imo, and gives me pause to wonder if he wasn't in a panic after LE arrived to take the missing persons report. Or was it just part of his plan to put the remains in the trash the night or morning before "garbage day". Either way, it was a manner of disposal.

On the other hand, he was efficient in concealing the other body parts, so why leave the torso behind? Why not dispose of it with the rest of the body? So called "torso murders" are relatively common, where the torso is meant to shock and garner attention. Yet, I can't say that was his intent because given another hour or so, and the trash would have been picked up, and no one would've been the wiser. Seems to me if you want to make a statement, you leave the body where it will be seen. I was just looking at a case the other night of a torso left in a rest stop just west of St. Louis. The perp could've disposed of the body in any wooded area along the highway. But he chose at a site, albeit in the bushes, where sooner or later it was bound to be discovered. That wasn't the case with McD. So I go back to the sloppy/panicked disposal theory. And I'm reminded of the possibility that he held onto the torso until fear of discovery forced his hand.

Now to the rumors Backwoods and Tomkat have mentioned, I don't specifically recall one about a tip from the sanitation supervisor. What I do remember is a post from a member whose relative lived in the back building or around the block. This poster told us neighbors were talking about dogs -- and I think he/she said HRD dogs -- hitting on trash cans along the street, and even chasing behind the garbage truck. I remember thinking at the time that it made sense and fit with my impression of McD. Yet again, in another hour or so, give or take, the trash would've been hauled away. I think he could get away with taking a late night stroll and dropping smallish packages into trash cans. But that trash went to the city dump, if I'm not mistaken, and it was searched the same day. If the rumor was true, the evidence would've turned up.

The next most likely place is the river, imo. Nearby, convenient and efficient. If I had to choose, the river would be my guess. I still have some suspicions about the grandfather's property, but I can't see him driving that far with a body in his car.