Trial Thread - 9 May 2012 Judge to give Jury Instructions

[Maple1]

RaffertyLFP: Jury is out while legal issues are being discussed

Jury not in the courtroom yet. Some legal discussions going on.

Since the closing argument phase, is this the first legal discussion without the jury.
I can't remember if the crown made any objections in Derstine's closing.
Has Derstine made an objection in this instance?
Sorry if already answered. Just catching up on today, PSTime.

 

[Alison]

Okay but I will copy & paste what it say in the top left of our screens:

Victoria Stafford discuss all aspects of this case!

It does not say discuss only what the Crown says.

MOO IMO JMO

Very true, however this is not even a theory that the defence has brought forward (at least in their closing). Ask your neighbour (who is obviously an officer) how many people kidnap kids to settle a drug debt? I bet it very rarely happens JMO. If they were mad about money they would have taken JG out to the back fourty and laid him a beating and made threats against his family JMO. This is how it works in the criminal world. TLM would have a way bigger status charge from murdering JG than TS. Obviously if it was a drug debt guess JG/TM did not fit into MR's grand plan. JMO. If they were pissed off disrespected drug dealers they would have sent a message by going after the adults not the kid!
Also if it was a drug debt we have obvious reason to believe MR was dealing so therefore it would still involve him! She died while being kidnapped and he was there.

 

[flipflop]

I wonder if MR is resting his eyeballs tonight....sounds like he gave them quite the workout today!

 

[myzzy]

Respectfully snipped by me.
I see things differently, but I appreciate how you phrased and substantiated your POV. May I ask you a question? Okay, a few.
Do you not think that there is enough evidence to show that he participated in the kidnapping? Or, do you not think Tori was kidnapped?

I only ask because, in Canadian law, if a murder is committed during a kidnapping, it is first degree murder, which, as you know, is what he was charged with.

Thanks!

I believe and know just like everyone else Tori was kidnapped and murdered. What we are trying to figure out is the middle. There is enough doubt from the tweeted evidence in my mind to question is it possible that MR did not know Tori was being kidnapped, or even go as so far to ask if Tori even knew (initially) she was being abducted and started panicking ( instantly, 5 mins, 30 mins? ).

As I said before, I know we are missing a whole wack of information that the jury was privlaged too that we did not hear about, along with visually being able to see the evidence.

With the law, I am no lawyer and dont pretend to be one on tv but i believe "Intent" is needed

 

[djmep]

There is one thing that keeps bothering me about this.....if Tori knew she was in trouble as the Crown states, why did she not try to escape while they were at the Tim Hortons? I have a child the same age and we have gone over things to do if anyone ever tried to grab them or harm them and I strongly believe my child would have tried to escape when MR went into the Tim Hortons. Am I missing something?

 

[Flowercb]

There is one thing that keeps bothering me about this.....if Tori knew she was in trouble as the Crown states, why did she not try to escape while they were at the Tim Hortons? I have a child the same age and we have gone over things to do if anyone ever tried to grab them or harm them and I strongly believe my child would have tried to escape when MR went into the Tim Hortons. Am I missing something?

They probably threatened her or they drugged her. MOO!

 

[OhSoCurious]

I believe and know just like everyone else Tori was kidnapped and murdered. What we are trying to figure out is the middle. There is enough doubt from the tweeted evidence in my mind to question is it possible that MR did not know Tori was being kidnapped, or even go as so far to ask if Tori even knew (initially) she was being abducted and started panicking ( instantly, 5 mins, 30 mins? ).

As I said before, I know we are missing a whole wack of information that the jury was privlaged too that we did not hear about, along with visually being able to see the evidence.

With the law, I am no lawyer and dont pretend to be one on tv but i believe "Intent" is needed

Myzzy you are sounding like a methodical thinker with your "intent" comment, like Ardy here, if I might say. There is only a compliment intended here, please take it as one. JMO

 

[paris_paris]

There is one thing that keeps bothering me about this.....if Tori knew she was in trouble as the Crown states, why did she not try to escape while they were at the Tim Hortons? I have a child the same age and we have gone over things to do if anyone ever tried to grab them or harm them and I strongly believe my child would have tried to escape when MR went into the Tim Hortons. Am I missing something?

I think somehow... they managed to make her think she wasn't in danger. Remember Tori left school with her earrings in her hand. She was found with one in her ear. Somebody helped her put her earrings in, and I doubt it was MTR.

 

[otto]

I believe and know just like everyone else Tori was kidnapped and murdered. What we are trying to figure out is the middle. There is enough doubt from the tweeted evidence in my mind to question is it possible that MR did not know Tori was being kidnapped, or even go as so far to ask if Tori even knew (initially) she was being abducted and started panicking ( instantly, 5 mins, 30 mins? ).

As I said before, I know we are missing a whole wack of information that the jury was privlaged too that we did not hear about, along with visually being able to see the evidence.

With the law, I am no lawyer and dont pretend to be one on tv but i believe "Intent" is needed

If he participated in the kidnapping and the victim was murdered, he's guilty of 1st degree murder even if he didn't cause the fatal blow. The intent is in the kidnapping.

 

[otto]

There is one thing that keeps bothering me about this.....if Tori knew she was in trouble as the Crown states, why did she not try to escape while they were at the Tim Hortons? I have a child the same age and we have gone over things to do if anyone ever tried to grab them or harm them and I strongly believe my child would have tried to escape when MR went into the Tim Hortons. Am I missing something?

MR had a blue handled knife and that blade was missing when police searched his residence. Victoria was never left alone with the freedom to leave. She was always watched by one of the two murderers.

 

[djmep]

MR had a blue handled knife and that blade was missing when police searched his residence. Victoria was never left alone with the freedom to leave. She was always watched by one of the two murderers.

I guess I am just thinking that if TLM was sitting in the front seat and she was in the back by herself at the Tim Hortons she might have been able to make a run for it. I am assuming that there would have been traffic there since most Tims are fairly busy. The fact that she didn't makes me feel as though she did not feel threatened at that point. The only reason I can come up with for that is that she did know TLM somehow.

 

[nobodyzgirl]

If he participated in the kidnapping and the victim was murdered, he's guilty of 1st degree murder even if he didn't cause the fatal blow. The intent is in the kidnapping.

In order to be convicted he has to have "willingly and knowingly participated", not just participated. If the jury believes he willingly participated in the kidnapping/abduction they should come back with a guilty verdict.

If he was threatened to participate, or did not know that Tori was being kidnapped, when she was in his car, then they should come back with a not guilty verdict.

 

[OhSoCurious]

There is one thing that keeps bothering me about this.....if Tori knew she was in trouble as the Crown states, why did she not try to escape while they were at the Tim Hortons? I have a child the same age and we have gone over things to do if anyone ever tried to grab them or harm them and I strongly believe my child would have tried to escape when MR went into the Tim Hortons. Am I missing something?

Remember in one of Tara's lawn pressers she said something like; "I'm sure Tori's giving someone a hard time now." Whatever it was, it made us think she is feisty and yes hopefully full of fighting power. In no way would I ever want this to be misconstrued as blaming Tori for what happened. But yes, a good point to think about. JMO

 

[flipflop]

I guess I am just thinking that if TLM was sitting in the front seat and she was in the back by herself at the Tim Hortons she might have been able to make a run for it. I am assuming that there would have been traffic there since most Tims are fairly busy. The fact that she didn't makes me feel as though she did not feel threatened at that point. The only reason I can come up with for that is that she did know TLM somehow.

Perhaps the vehicle had child locks....and she could not get out on her own.

 

[Bravo]

Just putting it out there but many victims dont flee from sheer terror and/or being terrorized.

 

[Bravo]

Also if Tori was on the floor and covered how would she even know she was at a Tim Hortons. Or any public place.

 

[Tahorn]

I guess I am just thinking that if TLM was sitting in the front seat and she was in the back by herself at the Tim Hortons she might have been able to make a run for it. I am assuming that there would have been traffic there since most Tims are fairly busy. The fact that she didn't makes me feel as though she did not feel threatened at that point. The only reason I can come up with for that is that she did know TLM somehow.

Wasn't there another interview where TM said she felt it was a mildly vindictive motive gone wrong.

 

[Flowercb]

Perhaps the vehicle had child locks....and she could not get out on her own.

Good point--locks, drugs, threats, yelling, and maybe physical restraints. And Tori is not the first child to have been abducted successfully! Unfortunately, success in keeping the child in their possession is not a problem for these people! MOO.

 

[OhSoCurious]

Very true, however this is not even a theory that the defence has brought forward (at least in their closing). Ask your neighbour (who is obviously an officer) how many people kidnap kids to settle a drug debt? I bet it very rarely happens JMO. If they were mad about money they would have taken JG out to the back fourty and laid him a beating and made threats against his family JMO. This is how it works in the criminal world. TLM would have a way bigger status charge from murdering JG than TS. Obviously if it was a drug debt guess JG/TM did not fit into MR's grand plan. JMO. If they were pissed off disrespected drug dealers they would have sent a message by going after the adults not the kid!
Also if it was a drug debt we have obvious reason to believe MR was dealing so therefore it would still involve him! She died while being kidnapped and he was there.

Victoria Stafford discuss all aspects of this case!

... all aspects is a healthy thing for the mind

JMO

 

[Bravo]

Maybe Tori did give her killer/s a hard time. Perhaps that accounts for the horrific nature of her injuries.