NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 8

[neverletgo]

:bump:

You are missed, Maura. Where are you?

raying:

 

[OldSteve]

:bump:

You are missed, Maura. Where are you?

raying:

:welcome: Be interested in any thoughts you have about this sad case..

 

[Queen_City]

Does anyone think any of the rumors of Maura living a new life in Canada could be true? I'm sure people would put the odds of that at <1% but the case is so mind boggling and something about her disappearance just doesn't make sense. It's only been lately that I've thought her being alive could actually be a possibility.

 

[McSpy]

Does anyone think any of the rumors of Maura living a new life in Canada could be true? I'm sure people would put the odds of that at <1% but the case is so mind boggling and something about her disappearance just doesn't make sense. It's only been lately that I've thought her being alive could actually be a possibility.

I would be shocked if she was alive and living in Canada. In 2004, security at the border was pretty tight, because of 9/11, She could have slipped through, but with who? How did she get there? Also, i have a hard time thinking she would abandon her family. I think she was angry and disappointed with herself, than feeling she needed to run away from friends and family. Overall, it seems like she got along with her family, so I just don't think she would do this to them, if she was alive and well. I could be wrong, but I feel it is more likely something else happened. JMO

 

[telemag]

I would be shocked if she was alive and living in Canada. In 2004, security at the border was pretty tight, because of 9/11, She could have slipped through, but with who? How did she get there? Also, i have a hard time thinking she would abandon her family. I think she was angry and disappointed with herself, than feeling she needed to run away from friends and family. Overall, it seems like she got along with her family, so I just don't think she would do this to them, if she was alive and well. I could be wrong, but I feel it is more likely something else happened. JMO

Been to Canada a few times between 03 and 07 and security was not an issue at all and you didn't need a passport then either. All I did was show my license and drove right thru.

 

[AWOLNATION]

Been to Canada a few times between 03 and 07 and security was not an issue at all and you didn't need a passport then either. All I did was show my license and drove right thru.

totally agree with this, Ive traveled through Canada alot, especially through the 91North and 93North which eventually turn into Canada 55. At night, you pull up to the Customs/Border and the Canadian official asks where you are heading and for what purpose, and how long you intend to stay. the last time i visited Canada was in 2009 and they never looked at my license or asked to see anything. I wasn't surprised because that's always the way it has been for me. I wasn't alone either, I had my wife and three kids in the vehicle, I thought for sure they would want to see what is up with a family.

Ive subscribed to the theory that she had help in reaching another destination, especially Canada. I grew up in Maine and am very familiar with the NH White Mountain area and I now live just south of Amherst, MA.
I find it extremely plausible that she connected up with someone further east on route 112 where route 93 joins and heads north.
I really dont find it that unlikely that someone could go off the radar and not be found, a smart person could easily know the right time right place in leading a trail of clues, red herrings and what not.

I have a different take on the way Fred Murray is acting, alot of people say he's trying to hide secrets and he knows more that hes telling....well, he may no more, but what it is may be totally the opposite of what people think. Ive gotta say, I feel like with him trying to get all the police records released, it appears to me he's trying to get the whereabouts of Maura...I feel on some level Law Enforcement may know where she is, and thats what fred is after...because once an adult goes missing, and are found, The Police dont have to give the details of where she is, shes an adult. The only flaw with that is, if there are criminal charges pending, why havent they tried to bring her back to the US, unless they have lost her again and thats why it remains an "open" cold case or whatever.

Ive been very interested in this case for a while. When the episode of disappeared came about i did my best to study different things that were being said, studied the body language, and any little screen shots they would give us...especially the Cell Phone records with only the prefix blacked out. Using the Area Code Given and the Last four digits of the number i was able to reverse engineer the phone numbers shown on that television show. I was able to get the history of the phone numbers and what was in use back in 2004. A couple things struck out to me that may or may not be anything, it could just be pure coincidence...but when you look at the case and all that has come to light about Maura and her family it seems like it may fit. So, the two big things were 2 Laywers, Both dealt in family disagreements, Family therapy, Custody, Retainer for legal services on an as need basis (which would be good for a college student to only have to pay certain things and not for the whole service) Ive read Maura had dealings in fraud, so that may be part of it, but it could have been family issues, could be about the crashed car in Amherst. There were a couple other numbers that showed up, nothing too interesting other than a Navy Recruit in Albany, NY.
Im open to all theories, but am partial towards her running away, it doesnt seem impossible. I do believe that the phone call that came in at work that caused her to almost collapse was some sort of conversation in regards to her boyfriend cheating on her, it just seems to fit in when you look at the whole case and all that has been uncovered. I think that may have been the tipping point and she just took off. whatever the case may be, hopefully some peace and resolution will come forward.

 

[scoops]

About maura being alive and starting a new life:

For me, this theory has never made much sense.

If maura was running from something (unexpected pregnancy, minor credit card mis-use, secret boyfriend) eight years later, heck even a few years later ... none of that stuff would matter to anyone anymore.

From all accounts, maura had a great relationship with her family and friends, even if she was keeping secrets from her father, she was very close to her sister Kathleen (they talked every day on the phone) pretty sure Kathleen would at least have a hint about something if maura was planning a new life.

If her father was in on helping her sneak away to start a new life, he would've faded from the public eye, not agreed to a tv show (ID Disappeared) to highlight the fact his daughter was missing and bring more attention from all over the country and world on his daughter's case.

Maura's mother Laurie died five years after maura went missing and died on precisely maura's 27th birthday. I imagine there is more than just irony to that fact. If maura were alive or one of maura's sisters was "in" on getting maura off on a new life somewhere, I find it almost impossible to believe that they would let their mother die without knowing what happened to maura.

Fred's actions in aggressively pursuing the police to release whatever info they had gathered up on his daughter's case to me (IMHO) was his attempt at publically getting the police to acknowledge that they hadn't treated his daughter's case in the serious manner that Fred had been begging of them to treat it from the start.

The public comment that was made by the NH state's attorney assistant Jeff Strezlin that they were 75 percent sure they would get a conviction in this case (I am paraphrasing, not his exact quote but close) was in my opinion his way of getting fred murray and the courts off the police investigator's backs, nothing more or nothing less. I have watched the court case concerning fred murray and his lawsuit against new hampshire police and the courts were putting a lot of pressure on the police to give a justifiable reason why they were witholding information from fred murray for so long and what do you know, the quote about a 75 percent conviction in the case comes out of nowhere.

 

[McSpy]

totally agree with this, Ive traveled through Canada alot, especially through the 91North and 93North which eventually turn into Canada 55. At night, you pull up to the Customs/Border and the Canadian official asks where you are heading and for what purpose, and how long you intend to stay. the last time i visited Canada was in 2009 and they never looked at my license or asked to see anything. I wasn't surprised because that's always the way it has been for me. I wasn't alone either, I had my wife and three kids in the vehicle, I thought for sure they would want to see what is up with a family.

Ive subscribed to the theory that she had help in reaching another destination, especially Canada. I grew up in Maine and am very familiar with the NH White Mountain area and I now live just south of Amherst, MA.
I find it extremely plausible that she connected up with someone further east on route 112 where route 93 joins and heads north.
I really dont find it that unlikely that someone could go off the radar and not be found, a smart person could easily know the right time right place in leading a trail of clues, red herrings and what not.

I have a different take on the way Fred Murray is acting, alot of people say he's trying to hide secrets and he knows more that hes telling....well, he may no more, but what it is may be totally the opposite of what people think. Ive gotta say, I feel like with him trying to get all the police records released, it appears to me he's trying to get the whereabouts of Maura...I feel on some level Law Enforcement may know where she is, and thats what fred is after...because once an adult goes missing, and are found, The Police dont have to give the details of where she is, shes an adult. The only flaw with that is, if there are criminal charges pending, why havent they tried to bring her back to the US, unless they have lost her again and thats why it remains an "open" cold case or whatever.

Ive been very interested in this case for a while. When the episode of disappeared came about i did my best to study different things that were being said, studied the body language, and any little screen shots they would give us...especially the Cell Phone records with only the prefix blacked out. Using the Area Code Given and the Last four digits of the number i was able to reverse engineer the phone numbers shown on that television show. I was able to get the history of the phone numbers and what was in use back in 2004. A couple things struck out to me that may or may not be anything, it could just be pure coincidence...but when you look at the case and all that has come to light about Maura and her family it seems like it may fit. So, the two big things were 2 Laywers, Both dealt in family disagreements, Family therapy, Custody, Retainer for legal services on an as need basis (which would be good for a college student to only have to pay certain things and not for the whole service) Ive read Maura had dealings in fraud, so that may be part of it, but it could have been family issues, could be about the crashed car in Amherst. There were a couple other numbers that showed up, nothing too interesting other than a Navy Recruit in Albany, NY.
Im open to all theories, but am partial towards her running away, it doesnt seem impossible. I do believe that the phone call that came in at work that caused her to almost collapse was some sort of conversation in regards to her boyfriend cheating on her, it just seems to fit in when you look at the whole case and all that has been uncovered. I think that may have been the tipping point and she just took off. whatever the case may be, hopefully some peace and resolution will come forward.

BBM

I disagree with this. Maura wouldn't still be on NH's cold case list, if LE knew of her whereabouts. I also don't think LE would not tell her family if she was found. They may not tell of her location, if she doesn't want her family to know, but I'm pretty confident her family would be told that she was located alive and well. LE is not obliged to honor Maura's wishes, if she doesn't want the family to know if she was dead or alive. JMO

As for Fred, I think he wanted the case info, because he felt LE fouled up the case from the beginning. He wanted to do his own search and perhaps, get the state police and FBI involved. JMO

 

[McSpy]

About maura being alive and starting a new life:

For me, this theory has never made much sense.

If maura was running from something (unexpected pregnancy, minor credit card mis-use, secret boyfriend) eight years later, heck even a few years later ... none of that stuff would matter to anyone anymore.

From all accounts, maura had a great relationship with her family and friends, even if she was keeping secrets from her father, she was very close to her sister Kathleen (they talked every day on the phone) pretty sure Kathleen would at least have a hint about something if maura was planning a new life.

If her father was in on helping her sneak away to start a new life, he would've faded from the public eye, not agreed to a tv show (ID Disappeared) to highlight the fact his daughter was missing and bring more attention from all over the country and world on his daughter's case.

Maura's mother Laurie died five years after maura went missing and died on precisely maura's 27th birthday. I imagine there is more than just irony to that fact. If maura were alive or one of maura's sisters was "in" on getting maura off on a new life somewhere, I find it almost impossible to believe that they would let their mother die without knowing what happened to maura.

Fred's actions in aggressively pursuing the police to release whatever info they had gathered up on his daughter's case to me (IMHO) was his attempt at publically getting the police to acknowledge that they hadn't treated his daughter's case in the serious manner that Fred had been begging of them to treat it from the start.

The public comment that was made by the NH state's attorney assistant Jeff Strezlin that they were 75 percent sure they would get a conviction in this case (I am paraphrasing, not his exact quote but close) was in my opinion his way of getting fred murray and the courts off the police investigator's backs, nothing more or nothing less. I have watched the court case concerning fred murray and his lawsuit against new hampshire police and the courts were putting a lot of pressure on the police to give a justifiable reason why they were witholding information from fred murray for so long and what do you know, the quote about a 75 percent conviction in the case comes out of nowhere.

Scoops, well said. I agree.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

Scoops, well said. I agree.

My opinions only, no facts here:

For any newcomers to this blog, please read my previous posts. I warn you, this will take some time!

Maura disappeared 100 yards up the road from where her car slid off. It was winter, and if she wandered off into the woods, she could have been tracked in the snow OR by the dogs. This has the feel of a local-yokel crime, but I do not believe that any of the named people in this case abducted Maura. They just happened to live nearby. It is too late now, but I will repeat (with variations) what I opined in a much earlier post- the investigators who went door-to-door after Maura disappeared should have asked everyone: "do you have any relatives or friends of friends staying with you or out back"? Philosophically-speaking, it is equally important to ask people what they know or suspect, as it is what they saw. If you do not ask, they will not volunteer.

 

[OldSteve]

My opinions only, no facts here:

For any newcomers to this blog, please read my previous posts. I warn you, this will take some time!

Maura disappeared 100 yards up the road from where her car slid off. It was winter, and if she wandered off into the woods, she could have been tracked in the snow OR by the dogs. This has the feel of a local-yokel crime, but I do not believe that any of the named people in this case abducted Maura. They just happened to live nearby. It is too late now, but I will repeat (with variations) what I opined in a much earlier post- the investigators who went door-to-door after Maura disappeared should have asked everyone: "do you have any relatives or friends of friends staying with you or out back"? Philosophically-speaking, it is equally important to ask people what they know or suspect, as it is what they saw. If you do not ask, they will not volunteer.

BBM:
Good point! IIRC, wasn't a person who drove the white car mentioned in the Molly Bish case one of "those staying out back"...
http://www.wggb.com/2012/05/11/bish-family-wants-fbi-help-in-solving-mollys-murder/

 

[scoops]

My opinions only, no facts here:

For any newcomers to this blog, please read my previous posts. I warn you, this will take some time!

Maura disappeared 100 yards up the road from where her car slid off. It was winter, and if she wandered off into the woods, she could have been tracked in the snow OR by the dogs. This has the feel of a local-yokel crime, but I do not believe that any of the named people in this case abducted Maura. They just happened to live nearby. It is too late now, but I will repeat (with variations) what I opined in a much earlier post- the investigators who went door-to-door after Maura disappeared should have asked everyone: "do you have any relatives or friends of friends staying with you or out back"? Philosophically-speaking, it is equally important to ask people what they know or suspect, as it is what they saw. If you do not ask, they will not volunteer.

Obviously (until proven otherwise) maura meeting foul play that night is a possibility. However, it must be made clear that the dog searches done for maura from her wreck site were specifically done to gain a starting point in the search and NOT to actually find maura.

The wrong kind of dogs were used (at least at first as I understand it). Out of the two major type of search dogs, they brought in scent trail dogs instead of a body recovery type search dog (these arent the official names of the type of search dogs, i am trying to keep it simple).

The scent trail dogs are less reliable unless they are employed right away when someone goes missing (which they were NOT in maura's case it was days later). Scent particles such as sweat and skin cells will shift and move thanks to weather, wind etc.. and confuse a scent trail dog. Even despite weather conditions, A scent trail dog would miss a body that is literally just 50 feet away from it to the left or right of the dog, if the dog doesn't pick up a trail for said body from where the dog begins its search.

A body recovery dog doesn't use a trail at all. this type of search dog hones in on the odor of rotting flesh and will make a bee-line to the body and can cover a lot of ground and doesn't have to go in a straight line. It won't know what it is about to uncover, but if something is dead and in the vincinity, this type of dog will find it.

Dogs losing maura's scent 100 yards down the road doesn't at all mean that maura got into a car. It only proved to the investigators that maura did start off east after her accident and nothing more did it prove.

It is as likely as anything else that maura did get into a car, but not a proven fact just because the dogs lost her scent at the intersection of Wild ammonoosuc rd and Bradley Hill rd.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

Obviously (until proven otherwise) maura meeting foul play that night is a possibility. However, it must be made clear that the dog searches done for maura from her wreck site were specifically done to gain a starting point in the search and NOT to actually find maura.

The wrong kind of dogs were used (at least at first as I understand it). Out of the two major type of search dogs, they brought in scent trail dogs instead of a body recovery type search dog (these arent the official names of the type of search dogs, i am trying to keep it simple).

The scent trail dogs are less reliable unless they are employed right away when someone goes missing (which they were NOT in maura's case it was days later). Scent particles such as sweat and skin cells will shift and move thanks to weather, wind etc.. and confuse a scent trail dog. Even despite weather conditions, A scent trail dog would miss a body that is literally just 50 feet away from it to the left or right of the dog, if the dog doesn't pick up a trail for said body from where the dog begins its search.

A body recovery dog doesn't use a trail at all. this type of search dog hones in on the odor of rotting flesh and will make a bee-line to the body and can cover a lot of ground and doesn't have to go in a straight line. It won't know what it is about to uncover, but if something is dead and in the vincinity, this type of dog will find it.

Dogs losing maura's scent 100 yards down the road doesn't at all mean that maura got into a car. It only proved to the investigators that maura did start off east after her accident and nothing more did it prove.

It is as likely as anything else that maura did get into a car, but not a proven fact just because the dogs lost her scent at the intersection of Wild ammonoosuc rd and Bradley Hill rd.

My opinions only, no facts here:

If suppositions, opinions, and theories had to stand as proven facts....well... this website could not exist. So the argument becomes a logical non sequitur.

If I did not live across the country, I would take a short stroll up Bradley Hill Road and bring a pipe to smoke. Because this is definitely a 'three-pipe problem'.

 

[Masterj]

Not to mention the fact that the handlers were given a fairly new pair of gloves for her scent. Didn't Maura just receive those gloves as a Christmas gift and wasn't known to use them much? Please correct me if I am wrong. That detail always stuck out to me.

 

[OldSteve]

Snipped for brevity:

Dogs losing maura's scent 100 yards down the road doesn't at all mean that maura got into a car. It only proved to the investigators that maura did start off east after her accident and nothing more did it prove.

Exactly, and wonder if walked the 100 yards and then she began to run from that point if the dogs would simply stop because of that?

 

[McSpy]

Not to mention the fact that the handlers were given a fairly new pair of gloves for her scent. Didn't Maura just receive those gloves as a Christmas gift and wasn't known to use them much? Please correct me if I am wrong. That detail always stuck out to me.

You are correct. I recall Maura's father complaining about it. He thought her track gear would have been better items for the dogs. The gloves were new and she rarely wore them.

 

[McSpy]

My opinions only, no facts here:

For any newcomers to this blog, please read my previous posts. I warn you, this will take some time!

Maura disappeared 100 yards up the road from where her car slid off. It was winter, and if she wandered off into the woods, she could have been tracked in the snow OR by the dogs. This has the feel of a local-yokel crime, but I do not believe that any of the named people in this case abducted Maura. They just happened to live nearby. It is too late now, but I will repeat (with variations) what I opined in a much earlier post- the investigators who went door-to-door after Maura disappeared should have asked everyone: "do you have any relatives or friends of friends staying with you or out back"? Philosophically-speaking, it is equally important to ask people what they know or suspect, as it is what they saw. If you do not ask, they will not volunteer.

I agree. I think there is a big possibility an opportunist gave her a lift. He could have even taken her to his house and something got out of hand there. It may have started out friendly and he came across as helpful. JMO

 

[Mr. Noatak]

Snipped for brevity:



Exactly, and wonder if walked the 100 yards and then she began to run from that point if the dogs would simply stop because of that?

My opinions only, no facts here:

The subject of a dog's nose has come up before on this blog. If you want to see what is possible, google Yogi and Alie Berrelez. Trust me, this is the most amazing story ever told about a tracking dog.

Now, the typical police dog is likely not the same breed or as good as Yogi the bloodhound was, but I believe that where the dog lost Maura's scent is where she got into a vehicle. I just happen to think that the vehicle did not travel very far. A good bloodhound could have tracked Maura's route AFTER she got into the vehicle. This is the reason that I believe all police departments should have access to a bloodhound on short notice (there are plenty of private hounds for hire).

If Yogi the bloodhound had been used immediately on the Maura Murray, Michelle Parker, Jamison family, McStay family, or Holly Bobo cases, I believe these cases would be much more advanced by now if not solved outright.

 

[Robin Hood]

I'm told a bloodhound can smell traces of the person they are scenting through a car window and even through escaping air around a car door. One dog traced a car all the way to a freeway, about 3 miles before losing the scent.

 

[neverletgo]

Any thoughts about the 'Maura Murray Facebook picture' that Renner posted today?

If I'm allowed to post: