AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #18

[cluciano63]

Hi all. I've been lurking and have a question. Forgive me if it's been answered already. Is it a fact that SC slept on the couch that night? Or is an assumption because he said he was up late watching a game? TIA

He said he was watching the game and fell asleep.

 

[cluciano63]

No idea who those people are or what case they are connected to.

Hailey Dunn...Clint is her dad.

 

[GrainneDhu]

The problem with this is..........

1. how did the napper know that there was a little girl sleeping in a bed in THAT room THAT night? they had to know exactly which room she slept in and that she would be in there at the time they tried. why would some random person chose a house that was not ummmmm "user friendly" (high closed off walls).

2. how did the napper know that she would not make a noise or fight for her life? the window is not huge. now i have HUGE windows - an adult man could fit thru easily. her window was not huge. so how did he manage to take her, not wake her, keep her quiet and still (not fighting for her life) and get himself and her out of the small window...and over a wall. it seems impossible......no way, no how, IMO.

3. how did the napper know that the dogs would not attack EVEN with treats or make a sound? i have a big *advertiser censored* german shepherd....if she does not know you and you come near her or my house, she will kill you. i am NOT exaggerating. i dont care if you have a big *advertiser censored* steak to give her. she will attack you and kill you. she also will not immiedately or always bark (sometimes she does) at strangers if they come near. she will watch and watch and creap (like a cat)...she is very sneaky lol.....so someone coming over a fence may not even know she is there....BUT people who know me know how she is...

as ive said over and over.....this was a perfect storm of opportunity for someone to abduct her....and in my very very very vivid imagination, i do not see how some random stranger took her from her bed.

1) Was any part of Isa's room visible from outside the window at any part of the day? I'd say yes, considering the fact that the window is on the ground floor. In which case, easy enough for someone to make a note of which room in the house is probably that of the only little girl living in the house.

2) Why didn't Isa make a fuss? I don't know. Why didn't Danielle Van Dam? Why didn't Riley Fox? Why didn't a whole bunch of other abducted children make a fuss? Because some of them froze up with fear, some of them were being menaced with a weapon and some of them may not have awakened when they were being carried out. Some kids sleep very deeply and if they are used to being carried when asleep, it doesn't wake them up when someone picks them up.

I don't think the abductor left through the window. He may not have come in through the window, either; I think he popped the screen off the window and opened it just in case he needed to make a hasty retreat from the house. Like, say, if Isa had made a fuss...

3) I've owned 5 GSD in my life. They were all wonderful dogs but not one single one of them would have defended my property from an intruder. My person, yes; my property, nope.

Someone did try to attack me with a club and my first GSD pulled the leash out of my hand, took him down and stood on his chest daring him to move while I called the police. A medical examination of the perp showed absolutely no signs of any dog bites; apparently she did it all with the strategic application of her weight and her considerable roar.

There is a reason why PDs and sport dog people breed tons of litters and it's not because puppies are so irresistible. It's because it is a rare dog (1 in 10 or less) that will reliably attack a human being after extensive training.

That's one reason why more and more LE agencies are dividing up tasks between different dogs. It used to be an agency would have one dog that did drug detection, tracking and holding of suspects. It was so difficult to find dogs that could do it all that the prices were just beyond what most LE departments could afford. So they started dividing up tasks, buying dogs that were trained just to do drug detection, just to do tracking or just to apprehend and hold suspects.

Your dog may be exceptional and may defend your property in your absence.

I'd be willing to give her a go with my pocketful of garlic chicken. There's dogs out there that I can't handle but that is many fewer dogs than there are owners who swore to me I couldn't possibly handle their dog.

Unless specially trained (and most dogs aren't), the vast majority of dogs are opportunists. They love a "sucker" like me who gives away free cookies just for the sake of General Cuteness. The General must have incredible influence because I have yet to meet a dog I didn't think was generally cute.

 

[panthera]

Living room or Family room?

Sorry, in that quoted post I meant to say "family room". Isabel's bedroom isn't on the other side of the living room wall.

 

[Patty G]

If SC stated he was in the living room, then this is what we should use at this point. It's at least an idea of where he was, good, bad or ugly statement from him.

 

[Prof]

SC: No. We got home late from uh, my son's baseball game. You know, about 10:30 last night. Everyone took their showers and they all went to bed. I even was in the living room watching uh, the Diamondbacks game at midnight. ... And I fell asleep and I never heard anything weird. So I was like just on the ... other side of the wall from her.
http://tinyurl.com/d7xmxhr

There, he said living room..hmm lol

 

[Madeleine74]

BBM I totally agree this is the wrong way for LE to approach a case, but for those of us that are just concerned citizens, it is normal for that to happen, and for us to draw on life experiences and personal truths as tools to try to better understand the activities, reactions, and motives. Also, many of us have followed a few cases and notice statistical consistencies in some things such as 911 calls, parent actions, etc.
I am not an investigator or LE officer, I am just a wife and mom and concerned that this case is solved, so I admit that I don't approach cases in the "correct" way, I can't take my heart and feelings completely out of it. I would make a bad cop for that reason, but this is a true crime forum and I like hearing opinions, feelings, and stories of how others felt and acted in similar or related situations.

As a concerned citizen I agree.

The investigators are not conducting a case the same way as a member of the public might, thinking for instance, "Well my son once ran around the house and didn't close the door, so that means that the Celis girl...." or "If it were me making a call to a friend what I would say is...."

What I find most useful are case facts and the evidence because those are the things that will take a case into litigation and on through a trial.

 

[LisaB]

There is one! If you look at the upper right corner of each message box, there is a triangle with an exclamation point in it. Click on that and a "reply" page comes up. You just write a note about your concerns and a mod will read it.

It's really easy and quick.

Oops? Red Triangle = "Report Post".... not "Reply".

 

[Madeleine74]

We know some of what SC said because of quotes. We don't know if anything he said is the truth.

It might be the truth. It might be the partial truth. It might not be the truth.

I don't think LE is taking anything at face value. They are at least considering it as "partial only or not the truth."

 

[gubler_love]

catching up on last 10 pages of thread 16 and moving on to start catching up on this one now. i have a legal-aspect question. can people on these boards be sued? lol. i sure hope not. someone posted a pic of JM's jeep and inferred that because he had a jeep it "looked like a good vehicle to haul and dispose of a body" and then found pics of him doing "adventure" type things and concluded from that that he "must kno good places to hide a body that would never be found"??? :what: i either hope he's responsible or i hope he's got thick skin. those are some STRONG accusations just based on a pic of a jeep that someone found on his FB and reading he likes to ski/go to washington. good lord. seems the heat is off him now tho and back on daddio.

 

[winterrose]

Is there any way to find out how much money has been collected, how many accounts, who's getting it and where it's going? This information should be open to the public since the public is supplying it.

 

[Prof]

We are not supposed to post pictures from social networking sites at all on WS. I think a mod posted about this on every thread?:waitasec:

 

[GrainneDhu]

The simplest/most common explanation versus one that would not be as probable. Occam's Razor. It has stood the test of time for a really good reason.

And yet, it is only a generalisation, not an absolute.

For instance, most people who are allergic to Flagyl turn bright red. So when I started having breathing problems after taking Flagyl when on the burn unit, the doctors dismissed my feeling it was related to the Flagyl in part because I wasn't turning red. Against my better judgment, I took the next dose of Flagyl and went into anaphylactic shock.

Should they have given me yet another dose because after all, I didn't turn bright red? All I did was just about die.

Same hospital, different visit. I was diagnosed with Hepatitis B (infected at that hospital). I was told that 95% of all adults who are infected as adults with Hep B will spontaneously recover within 6 months.

I am now have active chronic Hep B.

Usually the hoofbeats belong to horses but every now and then, a zebra wanders by. It's no comfort to the victim of anaphylactic shock or Hep B to tell them "... but it's usually not a problem" because for that person, it really is a problem. The existence of the problem can't be waved away because it doesn't usually happen.

 

[gliving]

This is very informative, and a long read. It is from 2006.

"Investigative Case Management For Child Abduction Homicides"
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/201253NCJRS.pdf

Fascinating read Shelby2! Down in the summary was description I'd been looking for.

"The average age of killers of abducted children is around 27 years old. They are predominantly unmarried, and half of them either live alone or with their parents. Half of them are unemployed, and those that are employed work in unskilled or semi-skilled labor occupations. The killers can generally be charactized as 'social marginals."

*coughJMcough*

 

[mamamia54]

There, he said living room..hmm lol

Yep lol, and if he was correct in saying livingroom then he couldn't have been on the opposite wall as Isa, or are we looking at the wrong window? I do think we have the correct window though.

 

[Patty G]

The only one that "might" be able to verify that SC was sleeping on the sofa in the living room would be RC. Unless of course, she got ready in the Master Bedroom/Bathroom, and never went into the kitchen or looked to see where SC was since he was not in bed with her.

If RC didn't go into the kitchen or check to see where SC was, then it is possible that she went out of the house through the garage. For some reason, I would think she would park her Lexus in the garage.

Heck, if I had a Lexus, I'd be parking it in my bedroom.

 

[prima.facie]

Is there any way to find out how much money has been collected, how many accounts, who's getting it and where it's going? This information should be open to the public since the public is supplying it.

i asked that earlier....nobody had a response.... *shrug*

 

[Prof]

Yep lol, and if he was correct in saying livingroom then he couldn't have been on the opposite wall as Isa, or are we looking at the wrong window? I do think we have the correct window though.

Who knows in this case? I think we have the right window/bedrooom.
Who knows what room they call the living room?
The living room could be all one open floor plan in the center of the house with only walls for the bedroom, for all I know lol
Livingroom/family room/den..

 

[panthera]

The only one that "might" be able to verify that SC was sleeping on the sofa in the living room would be RC. Unless of course, she got ready in the Master Bedroom/Bathroom, and never went into the kitchen or looked to see where SC was since he was not in bed with her.

If RC didn't go into the kitchen or check to see where SC was, then it is possible that she went out of the house through the garage. For some reason, I would think she would park her Lexus in the garage.

Heck, if I had a Lexus, I'd be parking it in my bedroom.

Has she stated in any of her interviews what time she got up? I know she's said she left around 7:00am. Some people can get up 20-30 minutes before leaving home and others take much longer to get ready for work - especially if they have coffee or breakfast.

MOO

 

[Prof]

I guess the money donated question is up for sleuthing for those who care?
I don't remember seeing an answer on the threads, if that helps.