Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[UKGuy]

Yes, with the proviso that Patsy was all about appearances - and she was a rather stereotypical southern belle, modeled on a romantic ideal. I think John was a cold, remote fish and that part of what drove Patsy's role in the relationship was desperate loneliness and longing for genuine rapport. I've never seen a photo of the two that doesn't accord with your observation about John in the relationship - complacent, even bored. My sense is that Patsy strove to put a gloss on the disappointments in her life, and in her marriage conjured a Great Romance that wasn't really there. MOO!

We all have our theories about what happened, of course, and who knows what John did or did not do that night. But one of the many things that struck me in Kolar's book was John's response to JBR's death, contrasted with how he reacted to his first daughter's demise. He was inconsolable when the latter was killed in an accident, weeping copiously and depressed for a long while afterward. JBR's death? He appeared to be a complete cipher, remote and detached, making plans to leave the scene, calling lawyers, etc. Clearly, something was different in his perception of - and approach to - these two deaths.

Bonnette,
Sure, he was allegedly involved one but not the other.



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[OpenMind4U]

Yes, with the proviso that Patsy was all about appearances - and she was a rather stereotypical southern belle, modeled on a romantic ideal. I think John was a cold, remote fish and that part of what drove Patsy's role in the relationship was desperate loneliness and longing for genuine rapport. I've never seen a photo of the two that doesn't accord with your observation about John in the relationship - complacent, even bored. My sense is that Patsy strove to put a gloss on the disappointments in her life, and in her marriage conjured a Great Romance that wasn't really there. MOO!

We all have our theories about what happened, of course, and who knows what John did or did not do that night. But one of the many things that struck me in Kolar's book was John's response to JBR's death, contrasted with how he reacted to his first daughter's demise. He was inconsolable when the latter was killed in an accident, weeping copiously and depressed for a long while afterward. JBR's death? He appeared to be a complete cipher, remote and detached, making plans to leave the scene, calling lawyers, etc. Clearly, something was different in his perception of - and approach to - these two deaths.

You're absolutely correct. Kolar made us see 'behind the curtains' of PR and JR psycho. It was very interesting piece in the book (I don't want to 'spoil' the trill for others who didn't read his book yet) when he described the time when LE need to take photos of JR, PR and BR during their first visit at police station. Kolar saw these pictures and talk to people who took them.

John was sad, reserved and 'cold'. Patsy was non-recognizable, without make-up, she aged to look like 60 year old, her hair was undone, tide on the back in some kind of disorganized fashion, she was crying....Burke was sitting on the chair and SMILE....These 3 pictures are still in LE 'discovery' folder.

 

[midwest mama]

There has been some consensus recently from several WS's who post on various threads of this forum regularly that John Rasmey should be looked at very seriously as the one who was responsible for the ultimate strangulation death of JB.

Several scenarios posted are thought provoking and much of the discussion continues to lead to ideas that could be very valid. Using the poll in this thread, we see that there is now a total of 27.05% indication that John is favored as being involved in JB's death. (Add together the "JOHN" votes with the "BR (bash), then PR and JR staging/strangulation)" So, it looks like the greater percentage of voters now see John Ramsey as a perpetrator. I would like to believe there are many others who can figure him into their theory as the one who tightened the ligature which caused strangulation, deemed the 'cause of death' by more than one credible source.

As responsible citizens wanting to see some justice for JB, shouldn't we now try to figure out a way to force CO law authorities into recognizing they can no longer ignore the fact that John Ramsey needs to be brought into a courtroom to answer the charge of murder? raying:

 

[blefuscu]

I don't get why saying JBR was asleep and didn't wake up at all when they got in was so important. Would it matter if they said she was asleep in the car then woke up at home, and was put to bed? And therefore I don't get the denial of the Pineapple.

Surely if PR and JR are both complicit in JBR's death and cover up then they would spend time getting the story straight. They've had time to stage the crime allegedly, so why not spend 5 minutes or so getting the whole story straight?

I'm far more likely to think that sexually mature man is going to assault JBR's vagina rather than a 9 year old pre-pubescent boy. In fact I can't see how anyone could expect a 9 year old boy to keep up the act of not only sexually assaulting his sister but being a part of her death for all of these years without saying anything. He is a young child for goodness sake! He wouldn't have the emotional tools to cope with that unaided.

I think JR is the likely suspect. He is a powerful man, was called the "ice man" because of his cool demeanour. Lied about the window, went down to the cellar alone, then went down again and led FW to JBR's body when FW had already checked and not seen the body.

 

[UKGuy]

I can try to answer some of them.

She is alive BOTH when she is strangled and when she is bashed. The petechiae occur only while alive. The petechiae in her eyelids is a standard finding in strangulation deaths. Because of the urine stains on the front of her clothing, as well as the bruise on the back of her right shoulder, as well as there being green paint flakes on her chin that match those found on the basement carpet near the paint tote, I see the cord being knotted at the back of her neck while she lay on her stomach on the carpet near the paint tote in the basement. The urine release there tells me she she died right there. The head bash may have happened elsewhere, as did the sexual assault.

Many have tried to understand why the garrote was needed at all. We will never know. If it was a sex game, and she screamed and was bashed during it, that does explain both. Otherwise it had to be staging. Remember that the head bash left no VISIBLE signs- no bleeding, no scalp gash, no facial swelling. In fact, those present at the autopsy (including the coroner) were allegedly shocked when the coroner pulled back her scalp and saw the hole and large crack in her skull. So they had a comatose/dying child with NO indication of how she got that way.
Say what you will about the parents- I simply cannot see them putting their daughter outside for ANY reason. As far as letting the cold "finish her off"- I cannot see them leaving her to freeze outside. I can't see them planning to dump her out side for ANY reason, whether they planned to get her later or not. That is why the way she WAS found has "parental involvement" all over it. An intruder would have left her in plain sight, a shocking "gift" to JR under the Christmas tree or something equally as repulsive. Thanks to Arndt, she ended up there anyway. As far as calling 911, they DID wait till the next morning.

If her underwear became too bloodied, it would have needed replacing. The FACT that the coroner found that her thighs and pubic area had been wiped indicate this may have happened. They were trying to HIDE the sexual assault and previous abuse- an intruder would not have bothered to wipe her- the blood only adding to the thrill. Nor would they have needed to change her panties or known where the size 12s were.

BR didn't play in the wineceller, and JR said the little wood latch at the top of the door (that prevented the first cop on the scene from opening the door, thereby compromising the crime scene forever) was put there to keep the kids out. That was not a room for play- filthy mold on the floor, and only paint cans and window screens, etc. The train room was where he played.
I feel they intended to hide her in there until police left and then they'd figure out what to do. When it became obvious that police were NOT going to just leave them alone in the house, JR had to "find her". They made sure they got BR out of the house in case someone else did first. They always planned to remove BR from the house that day. This way, he couldn't be observed, questioned, or present when JB was found.

The "large" panties don't protect anyone. That wasn't their necessity. They were needed to replace panties she already had on- nothing more. They were worn UNDER her longjohns, and were never worn while she was alive and like the skull fracture, the size of the panties were only discovered when she was undressed on the autopsy table. The parents never imagined they would become an issue or noted as unusual because under her longjohns, they WEREN'T unusual. So the SIZE of them had nothing to do with protecting BR per se, but to have her found without panties might signal a sexual assault.

Denying the pineapple was important because they had already told LE that JB was asleep when she got home, they carried her to bed, and they never saw her awake or alive again. Admitting she ate the pineapple means admitting they lied about her being awake. Simple as that. By the way, it was BR himself who told LE his sister was AWAKE and walked into the house that night.
Like the too-big panties, the parents NEVER thought pineapple would be found in her digestive tract. So when it was, they HAD to deny it, and they also tried to deny even owning the bowl, spoon, an box of tissues near it! It also follows that they could not even say that BR MIGHT have had pineapple with his sister unbeknownst to them. THEN- police would definitely want to talk to BR more extensively. And suspicious would be raised about what ELSE he and his sister had done that night. It also brings it all too close to the time of death. If he was awake eating pineapple with her at that time of night, the intruder would be walking around with him awake and about himself.

JB was never salvageable. By EVERY forensic specialist's account, including the coroner, she'd have died of that alone. She would have instantly collapsed unconscious, probably having seizures (mucus and vomit on the cheek, evidence of tan mucus in the nose) and maybe comatose, certainly in shock. Shock lowers the body temp and suppresses breathing- she may have appeared dead to them. So to them it was a fatal event that needed covering up, regardless of which R was responsible.

You cannot seriously think that NO tests would have been done on her if brought to a hospital? A simple X-ray would have shown the skull fracture. This was a catastrophic injury. She'd have been in a COMA in the hospital, and her death from that bash was INEVITABLE. She would NOT have been "treated and released". Having been examined, the parents would have been arrested as soon as the bruise on the labia was seen, and then they WOULD have done a pelvic exam with speculum and seen the eroded hymen and blood and internal bruises. She would not have survived. And in EVERY State, ALL dead children are autopsied.
Bottom line- there was never going to be a LIVE JB. She was going to die. That night. Whether they took her to a hospital or not.

Apparently medical records of the deceased are confidential too, even if they are needed to solve the murder, IF you know the right people or have enough money.
By the way, NO medical records are confidential if a warrant is issued for them. This happens all the time in REAL DA offices.

There would be no charges against BR anyway, no need for a plea bargain. I am even thinking that psychological help would not be court ordered if it in any way might have implicated him in the crime.

DeeDee249,

If her underwear became too bloodied, it would have needed replacing. The FACT that the coroner found that her thighs and pubic area had been wiped indicate this may have happened. They were trying to HIDE the sexual assault and previous abuse- an intruder would not have bothered to wipe her- the blood only adding to the thrill. Nor would they have needed to change her panties or known where the size 12s were.

mmm, how do you reckon that splinter of wood arrived inside JonBenet?


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[UKGuy]

I don't get why saying JBR was asleep and didn't wake up at all when they got in was so important. Would it matter if they said she was asleep in the car then woke up at home, and was put to bed? And therefore I don't get the denial of the Pineapple.

Surely if PR and JR are both complicit in JBR's death and cover up then they would spend time getting the story straight. They've had time to stage the crime allegedly, so why not spend 5 minutes or so getting the whole story straight?

I'm far more likely to think that sexually mature man is going to assault JBR's vagina rather than a 9 year old pre-pubescent boy. In fact I can't see how anyone could expect a 9 year old boy to keep up the act of not only sexually assaulting his sister but being a part of her death for all of these years without saying anything. He is a young child for goodness sake! He wouldn't have the emotional tools to cope with that unaided.

I think JR is the likely suspect. He is a powerful man, was called the "ice man" because of his cool demeanour. Lied about the window, went down to the cellar alone, then went down again and led FW to JBR's body when FW had already checked and not seen the body.

blefuscu,

I don't get why saying JBR was asleep and didn't wake up at all when they got in was so important. Would it matter if they said she was asleep in the car then woke up at home, and was put to bed? And therefore I don't get the denial of the Pineapple.

But you know it matters, even for the R's. This was the R's version of events, except they forgot about the pineapple or never knew, hence the denial, its an old legal trick, if in doubt simply deny, you can always remember , recall, at a later date.

Surely if PR and JR are both complicit in JBR's death and cover up then they would spend time getting the story straight. They've had time to stage the crime allegedly, so why not spend 5 minutes or so getting the whole story straight?

Complicit but culpable? Two differents options. The reason their stories will vary might be that one is culpable and the other not. And most importantly, possibly neither were present in the events leading up to the head bash? So they are basically making it up as they go along. e.g. size-12's.

I'm far more likely to think that sexually mature man is going to assault JBR's vagina rather than a 9 year old pre-pubescent boy.

This is part of the attraction of an IDI theory. What you suggest is probablisitic, and I agree with you, so how do you reckon a sexually mature man might handle the protestation, even screams, of a six-year old girl, a bash on the head?

I think JR is the likely suspect. He is a powerful man, was called the "ice man" because of his cool demeanour.

He is the straw donkey, the fall guy. Analyse his statements, follow his actions, and he is always responding, attempting to moderate the situation, promote a view, offer a reason, he found the body, because he recognized what no one else had, so discovered JonBenet kidnapped to the wine-cellar, and returned to the world. Which left her death requiring an explanation, for which Lou Smit stepped forward.


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[txsvicki]

The strangling could also have been done with the knowledge that jonbenet lay there at least an hour and a half. If they knew a coroner would discover that time between the head wound and the strangling, then the sexual assault in the basement could become the purpose of the intruder IF the vaginal jab was dicovered. Jonbenet had to be asleep when brought home to alibi any males in the family plus the female. The trail from her bed down to the basement. The note left on the trail to confuse and send investigators in different directions plus give a motive, pedophile intruder or deranged person who hates the country and wanted to kill and violate a child in order to make a statement. Lots of crafty thinking going on for only 90 minutes to plan and carry it out while tending to an injured child.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I probably said too many times on this forum that notion of the final 'strangulation' performed as the part of the 'staging' - always bothered me! I couldn't see this action to be done by PR or JR. And after reading Kolar's book in regards of estimated 90 min between the head blow and strangulation - was like WOW, how this could fits into 'staging'?!!!! This new evidence has turned my brain upside down....

At the beginning, I was doubting myself: is it really possible that whoever 'stage' the crime (cleaning, redressing) could tide the rope until JBR's last breath for the sake to alter the actual crime scene? Is it possible that such an act could be done by the parents in the name of the 'mercy'?....No matter how much I tried to reason myself that parents could do such a thing in the name of saving another child (BR) - I couldn't get my mind to accept such a thing! But the FACT that JBR Bloomy's size 12 and longjohns panties were wet with urine on the FRONT indicates that her last breath from the strangulation happens right there, next to WC (as urine stained carpet indicated), AFTER she was cleaned-up and re-dressed. So, why it's still bothering me?! Why I cannot take these FACTS and adjust my theory/scenario?!...

Every criminologist would tell you that each crime has it's own MO (Modus Operandi). In JBR murder, we saw actions of RAGE (head blow) and TORTURE (acute vaginal injury w/paintbrush and strangulation by rope) and we saw completely opposite MO: 'caring' actions in the 'staging' - how is it possible that the same person could perform some of these both actions??? Shoot (I said to myself), but we have an urine stained panties which have been just 'redressed!'...

'Upon their removal, the underwear and long-johns were observed to contain dried, yellowish colored urine stains and the underwear contained two small circular stains of blood in the crotch'. (Kolar book, page 57).

....and here what 'hit' me last night...What if....
- BR is the one who done both, the RAGE and TORTURE acts;
- PR/JR found JBR already death, in basement, by WC, laying on her stomach;
- the 'staging' begins by cleaning, re-dressing, breaking the paintbrush, adding the 'garrote'...
- BUT BECAUSE CARPET WAS ALREADY SOAKED WITH AN URINE - the newly re-dressed panties got wet FROM the carpet.

Does this scenario has any sense???....or I should have another sleepless night?....

 

[dodie20]

I probably said too many times on this forum that notion of the final 'strangulation' performed as the part of the 'staging' - always bothered me! I couldn't see this action to be done by PR or JR. And after reading Kolar's book in regards of estimated 90 min between the head blow and strangulation - was like WOW, how this could fits into 'staging'?!!!! This new evidence has turned my brain upside down....

At the beginning, I was doubting myself: is it really possible that whoever 'stage' the crime (cleaning, redressing) could tide the rope until JBR's last breath for the sake to alter the actual crime scene? Is it possible that such an act could be done by the parents in the name of the 'mercy'?....No matter how much I tried to reason myself that parents could do such a thing in the name of saving another child (BR) - I couldn't get my mind to accept such a thing! But the FACT that JBR Bloomy's size 12 and longjohns panties were wet with urine on the FRONT indicates that her last breath from the strangulation happens right there, next to WC (as urine stained carpet indicated), AFTER she was cleaned-up and re-dressed. So, why it's still bothering me?! Why I cannot take these FACTS and adjust my theory/scenario?!...

Every criminologist would tell you that each crime has it's own MO (Modus Operandi). In JBR murder, we saw actions of RAGE (head blow) and TORTURE (acute vaginal injury w/paintbrush and strangulation by rope) and we saw completely opposite MO: 'caring' actions in the 'staging' - how is it possible that the same person could perform some of these both actions??? Shoot (I said to myself), but we have an urine stained panties which have been just 'redressed!'...

'Upon their removal, the underwear and long-johns were observed to contain dried, yellowish colored urine stains and the underwear contained two small circular stains of blood in the crotch'. (Kolar book, page 57).

....and here what 'hit' me last night...What if....
- BR is the one who done both, the RAGE and TORTURE acts;
- PR/JR found JBR already death, in basement, by WC, laying on her stomach;
- the 'staging' begins by cleaning, re-dressing, breaking the paintbrush, adding the 'garrote'...
- BUT BECAUSE CARPET WAS ALREADY SOAKED WITH AN URINE - the newly re-dressed panties got wet FROM the carpet.

Does this scenario has any sense???....or I should have another sleepless night?....

I can accept that parents kill their children, because of rage, and molestation. I don't like it, but I can believe it. I can also accept that parents might cover for a child who killed a sibling. If they are these kinds of parents, then that's just the way they are. But, I can't believe a parent who loved his/her child, would 'finish her off', to protect another sibling. I don't believe there is such a parent in existence. So, I'm not sure any of the abuse or torture was a part of staging. I think it's possible, that all of these things were really done to JB, and then later, after the rage wore off, or when a more caring person discovered what happened, he/she, cleaned JB and tried to make her more comfortable. But, then we have to ask...if he/she cared so much, why didn't he/she remove the garotte? Really though, we shouldn't put anything past anybody. moo

 

[txsvicki]

People may be getting tired of my questioning things and off the wall theories, but every time kolar is quoted there are more questions. The two small " circular spots" would indicate the panties being moved around but circular? I know that by the time these spots would have gotten on the panty that jonbenet was dead, or dying, and it may have been a small amount draining out after cleaning. I'm just not so sure that both spots would be circular since she was laying flat and the blood had to ooze from up inside and then get past the labia in two spots. One spot was said to be a half inch. Should one that big be circular?

 

[Bonnette]

I can accept that parents kill their children, because of rage, and molestation. I don't like it, but I can believe it. I can also accept that parents might cover for a child who killed a sibling. If they are these kinds of parents, then that's just the way they are. But, I can't believe a parent who loved his/her child, would 'finish her off', to protect another sibling. I don't believe there is such a parent in existence. So, I'm not sure any of the abuse or torture was a part of staging. I think it's possible, that all of these things were really done to JB, and then later, after the rage wore off, or when a more caring person discovered what happened, he/she, cleaned JB and tried to make her more comfortable. But, then we have to ask...if he/she cared so much, why didn't he/she remove the garotte? Really though, we shouldn't put anything past anybody. moo

That's basically my take on it, too. I think they left the garotte in place because it was too late, all the damage was done, and they knew the police would question why an unknown murderer would have bothered to remove it. Likewise, it seems to me that the ties around JBR's wrists had been part of the original scenario, placed for effect but not restraint, and were left there to serve a quickly-hatched storyline. I've never believed that the staging involved anything other than cleaning and wrapping her up, and writing that crazy ransom note. No one in the house was thinking clearly, evidenced by all the counterintuitive, contradictory, insane things that were done. And they got away with it, which is just unbearable. MOO.

 

[Chrishope]

I don't get why saying JBR was asleep and didn't wake up at all when they got in was so important. Would it matter if they said she was asleep in the car then woke up at home, and was put to bed? And therefore I don't get the denial of the Pineapple.

Surely if PR and JR are both complicit in JBR's death and cover up then they would spend time getting the story straight. They've had time to stage the crime allegedly, so why not spend 5 minutes or so getting the whole story straight?

I'm far more likely to think that sexually mature man is going to assault JBR's vagina rather than a 9 year old pre-pubescent boy. In fact I can't see how anyone could expect a 9 year old boy to keep up the act of not only sexually assaulting his sister but being a part of her death for all of these years without saying anything. He is a young child for goodness sake! He wouldn't have the emotional tools to cope with that unaided.

I think JR is the likely suspect. He is a powerful man, was called the "ice man" because of his cool demeanour. Lied about the window, went down to the cellar alone, then went down again and led FW to JBR's body when FW had already checked and not seen the body.

I agree. JR is the strongest suspect. I also agree that if they were colluding they'd have got their story straight. If even one parent knew about the pineapple, then the story they tell the cops would be that they fed her pineapple. No harm in that. (It's not actually illegal to eat pineapple in the us Either they are both ignorant of the pineapple eating (e.g. she ate it after they went to bed, or while they were in the living room, etc.) or she really was put to bed upon arrival home, but one parent fed her pineapple later in the night, but cannot reveal that to the other parent.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree. JR is the strongest suspect. I also agree that if they were colluding they'd have got their story straight. If even one parent knew about the pineapple, then the story they tell the cops would be that they fed her pineapple. No harm in that. (It's not actually illegal to eat pineapple in the us Either they are both ignorant of the pineapple eating (e.g. she ate it after they went to bed, or while they were in the living room, etc.) or she really was put to bed upon arrival home, but one parent fed her pineapple later in the night, but cannot reveal that to the other parent.

Chrishope,
Lets assume Patsy purchased the pineapple and prepared it in the bowl, possibly serving up a portion or not, then places it into the fridge?

The important issue is the forensic evidence, both Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints are on that bowl. Also Burke's fingerprint is on the glass containing the teabag.

So it looks to me as if Burke has fetched the bowl from the fridge, possibly even portioning out some pineapple for JonBenet?

So independently of John or Patsy's knowledge JonBenet may have snacked pineapple.

In the timeframe of events this suggests Burke as being the last person to see JonBenet alive?

From: “JonBenet: Anatomy of a Cold Case"

Tom Haney: and you'd said earlier you'd cleaned off the table after breakfast?
Patsy: I cleaned off the table.
Tom Haney: so that, that wasn't there.
Patsy: hm-mm. No. I've not seen that.
Patsy: I did not feed JonBenet pineapple.
Patsy: So I don't know how it got in her stomach,
Patsy: and I don't know where this bowl of pineapple came from.
Patsy: I can't recall putting that there.

So for those that think the pineapple had been on the table for an extended period, Patsy says, no, she cleaned off the table after breakfast.

With the crab she consumed at the White's below the pineapple in her stomach, it was estimated the pineapple was eaten one to two hours before her death. Somewhere about 10:00 pm.

The same issue regarding collusion arises with the size-12's. Those that promote a JDI theory, have to explain why John never forewarned Patsy about the size-12's prior to Patsy's interview with BPD. She was left to invent some story, that never stacked up!


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[UKGuy]

I probably said too many times on this forum that notion of the final 'strangulation' performed as the part of the 'staging' - always bothered me! I couldn't see this action to be done by PR or JR. And after reading Kolar's book in regards of estimated 90 min between the head blow and strangulation - was like WOW, how this could fits into 'staging'?!!!! This new evidence has turned my brain upside down....

At the beginning, I was doubting myself: is it really possible that whoever 'stage' the crime (cleaning, redressing) could tide the rope until JBR's last breath for the sake to alter the actual crime scene? Is it possible that such an act could be done by the parents in the name of the 'mercy'?....No matter how much I tried to reason myself that parents could do such a thing in the name of saving another child (BR) - I couldn't get my mind to accept such a thing! But the FACT that JBR Bloomy's size 12 and longjohns panties were wet with urine on the FRONT indicates that her last breath from the strangulation happens right there, next to WC (as urine stained carpet indicated), AFTER she was cleaned-up and re-dressed. So, why it's still bothering me?! Why I cannot take these FACTS and adjust my theory/scenario?!...

Every criminologist would tell you that each crime has it's own MO (Modus Operandi). In JBR murder, we saw actions of RAGE (head blow) and TORTURE (acute vaginal injury w/paintbrush and strangulation by rope) and we saw completely opposite MO: 'caring' actions in the 'staging' - how is it possible that the same person could perform some of these both actions??? Shoot (I said to myself), but we have an urine stained panties which have been just 'redressed!'...

'Upon their removal, the underwear and long-johns were observed to contain dried, yellowish colored urine stains and the underwear contained two small circular stains of blood in the crotch'. (Kolar book, page 57).

....and here what 'hit' me last night...What if....
- BR is the one who done both, the RAGE and TORTURE acts;
- PR/JR found JBR already death, in basement, by WC, laying on her stomach;
- the 'staging' begins by cleaning, re-dressing, breaking the paintbrush, adding the 'garrote'...
- BUT BECAUSE CARPET WAS ALREADY SOAKED WITH AN URINE - the newly re-dressed panties got wet FROM the carpet.

Does this scenario has any sense???....or I should have another sleepless night?....

OpenMind4U,
Can you cite your source for the urine soaked carpet?

Also some think the blanket and pillow from her bed was used to comfort her down in the basement. Its likely JonBenet was slipping in and out of consciousness, the R's must have known she was dying in front of them!

The urine soaked size-12's suggest JonBenet was redressed prior to being asphyxiated.

No paintbrush handle is required to asphyxiate JonBenet. Simply smothering her by hand, or use of plastic bag, or mouth covering would do the job.

This is why the asphyxiation appears to be staged, and it might be the stager thought JonBenet was dead, and they needed some visual effects to explain away her death, since the head blow was invisible.

Why would one R, stage a crime-scene for another R, if it had all been accidental?

Answer: because JonBenet was being regularly sexually abused, and all the R's knew this.

Some of Patsy's friends were concerned how JonBenet was being groomed for
pageants, with the makeup, platinum-dyed hair, her behaviour was creating what they termed a "Mega-JonBenet Thing", so even friends suspected something was going on, except they viewed it through the lens of the pageants.

Tricia might want to get those friends in for an interview, I'll bet the gossip might be unpublishable?


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[UKGuy]

People may be getting tired of my questioning things and off the wall theories, but every time kolar is quoted there are more questions. The two small " circular spots" would indicate the panties being moved around but circular? I know that by the time these spots would have gotten on the panty that jonbenet was dead, or dying, and it may have been a small amount draining out after cleaning. I'm just not so sure that both spots would be circular since she was laying flat and the blood had to ooze from up inside and then get past the labia in two spots. One spot was said to be a half inch. Should one that big be circular?

txsvicki,
Circular spots suggest what most people think. They are circular because as blood is flowing from JonBenet to the size-12's, it radiates outward, giving the circular effect.

There might be two spots due to JonBenet being turned over?



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[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
Can you cite your source for the urine soaked carpet?

Also some think the blanket and pillow from her bed was used to comfort her down in the basement. Its likely JonBenet was slipping in and out of consciousness, the R's must have known she was dying in front of them!

The urine soaked size-12's suggest JonBenet was redressed prior to being asphyxiated.

No paintbrush handle is required to asphyxiate JonBenet. Simply smothering her by hand, or use of plastic bag, or mouth covering would do the job.

This is why the asphyxiation appears to be staged, and it might be the stager thought JonBenet was dead, and they needed some visual effects to explain away her death, since the head blow was invisible.

Why would one R, stage a crime-scene for another R, if it had all been accidental?

Answer: because JonBenet was being regularly sexually abused, and all the R's knew this.

Some of Patsy's friends were concerned how JonBenet was being groomed for
pageants, with the makeup, platinum-dyed hair, her behaviour was creating what they termed a "Mega-JonBenet Thing", so even friends suspected something was going on, except they viewed it through the lens of the pageants.

Tricia might want to get those friends in for an interview, I'll bet the gossip might be unpublishable?


.

UKGuy,

Can you cite your source for the urine soaked carpet?

No, I cannot cite source for 'soaked' carpet. It's simply my speculation by knowing that urine has been found on the carpet next to WC. How much of urine has been found? I don't know. I didn't see such a references (not in PMPT, not in ST, not in Kolar book) to the QUANTITY of the urine on the carpet and JBR panties. Because urine on the front of the panties and urine on the carpet - we all assumed that JBR was redressed FIRST and strangulated SECOND, right? I just simply try to speculate that this could NOT be the case. If carpet was wet already by urine (due to strangulation) then redressed new panties could became wet from the carpet...Just a simple 'theory'/possibility on my part...

'The urine soaked size-12's suggest JonBenet was redressed prior to being asphyxiated.

You see, I'm NOT going to ask you where is your source of urine 'SOAKED' size-12......

No paintbrush handle is required to asphyxiate JonBenet

Agree on this one. IMO, the 'garrotte' part wasn't usefull/workable at all in JBR strangulation. This piece of broken wood was added to hide the real purpose of the paintbrush and to add the 'kidnapper terror' effect. 'Garrotte' was a dummy proms, JMO. Therefore, in my original post, I said that one element of the 'staging' was 'adding 'garrotte'. However, unfortunately, the strangulation itself by rope was NOT staged!...JMO...until someone would logically convinced me that getting urine from the carpet to the panties is NOT possible...

 

[BOESP]

Chrishope,
Lets assume Patsy purchased the pineapple and prepared it in the bowl, possibly serving up a portion or not, then places it into the fridge?
[snip].

UKGuy, iirc, Thomas covered this in his book. The pineapple in JonBenet's duodenum was chemically consistent with the pineapple on the table and the pineapple on the table was matched to pineapple in a container in the refrigerator.

Patsy stated that JonBenet only ate fresh pineapple and Patsy confirmed there was a container of prepared fresh pineapple in the frig. She named the grocery where she bought it but I've forgotten ... some big chain like "Fresh Market" or some such. DeeDee may remember or know.

I think LE established that Patsy brought the pineapple to the home.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, iirc, Thomas covered this in his book. The pineapple in JonBenet's duodenum was chemically consistent with the pineapple on the table and the pineapple on the table was matched to pineapple in a container in the refrigerator.

Patsy stated that JonBenet only ate fresh pineapple and Patsy confirmed there was a container of prepared fresh pineapple in the frig. She named the grocery where she bought it but I've forgotten ... some big chain like "Fresh Market" or some such. DeeDee may remember or know.

I think LE established that Patsy brought the pineapple to the home.

BOESP,
Might have been Safeways, did they not have a deli counter? Was it fresh as in precut, in the shop?

.

 

[BOESP]

OpenMind4U,
[snip]

Also some think the blanket and pillow from her bed was used to comfort her down in the basement. Its likely JonBenet was slipping in and out of consciousness, the R's must have known she was dying in front of them!
[snip].

UKGuy when you put it like that I am at a great loss how one yet alone two parents would be capable of not calling for help if their child was in the shape JonBenet was in. Obviously though it happened.

One thing is sure, both the BPD and FBI believed there was staging plus staging-within-staging. That certainly points to at least one of the adults knowing what happened in that household and I for one am very comfortable in believing the BPD and FBI are more than capable to make that judgement.

Statistically, John Ramsey is the best candidate but personally I still haven't seen or read anything that leads me away from Steve Thomas's viewpoint. I'm on chapter three of Kolar's book so can't say much about that yet.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
Might have been Safeways, did they not have a deli counter? Was it fresh as in precut, in the shop?

.

Keep in mind it's been over a decade since I read about this but to the best of memory it came from a deli counter in the grocery (could have been a Safeway), precut in the shop.