CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

[seguek9]

When I googled the Invisible Light Company it took me to that crazy "godlikeproductions" forum, where nutters are speculating that invisible people offed Elisa. My head hurts after peeking at that. nThe company probably chose that name because they thought it was cool, and now conspiracy theorists are taking it and running with it in every possible paranoid way. that's unfortunate, I'm sure there are other businesses in the same place with more mundane names.

One never knows.

 

[LittleWing]

Peter Brandt, tried quoting you from page 33 but it's not working.

Still have 5 pages of reading to go so not sure if this is discussed.

I thought you have some very interesting points. You really got my gears turning.....

Firstly.................is it not possible that in getting her body to the roof, the perp has possibly stored her in the elevator maintenance room on the top??? Even just for a couple days, before he was finally able to get her body into the tank? I suppose he knew he wouldn't be able to stash her in that room for long and realized the water tank might be a good place to put her to buy him some time? In this way, he'd have less chance of being seen by anybody who happened to be on the roof, since he'd have far less distance to go to dispose of her body from the maintenance room to the tank.............

But then wouldn't the dogs have been able to detect her scent? Or would her being in a bag or garbage bags really cover her scent?

Also as someone has mentioned, if this is an employee could they not use cleaning trollies/cart etc to hide her body and look totally normal accessing all areas of the building, in case somebody saw them? Who really notices cleaning employees etc all that much? You take for granted that they're a seamless part of the hotel and are meant to be there.

As another poster mentions that, if she was found nude, it's unlikely she was trying to hide...I disagree. She may have been sexually assaulted and managed to escape somehow and thought the cistern was a place they wouldn't look. I doubt that, though, because if she managed to escape the other person/people would probably be right behind her. Unless she managed to disable them in some way ie a swift kick to a delicate area.(sorry boys lol)...so if she had someone in close pursuit, She'd have to remove the lid on the tank (which might have not been in place) and squeeze into the tank.....it's just not plausible. The person would be able to see what she was doing from meters away and she'd just trap herself. Makes more sense she'd try for one of the many fire escapes. Going down the escapes, she could pound on the windows and alert people. If she had her wits about her to an extent that is.

Also, if the perp got her body up using a fire escape, you'd think guests would be alarmed hearing someone climbing outside their window. Fire escapes are not exactly quiet and discreet. On top of that ppl have very different habits and there is no rule saying that everyone is in bed by midnight, lol so there would be a high likelihood someone would be alerted by the sounds of someone on the fire escape.

Of course, if we're talking about areas where long term residents live, they may be used to people accessing the roof via fire escape so it would not necessarily set off warning bells. I don't think you could get away with that as much on the stay levels though. Imagine staying in a creepy hotel, with lots f unsavory characters....I'd sure as hell call reception of someone was skulking outside my window!






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[xlittlewingx]

I tend towards this assessment of the video for now too. Plain and simple. Imagine this variation: She's fooling around with someone at the hotel. He says, Let's go to the roof (with sexual or vi0lent intent). She playfully (and perhaps seriously not feeling right about head to the roof) runs off to the elevator instead. Pushes all the buttons to be cute. But then, he doesn't follow her. The rest of it is her just waiting, exasperatedly, for him to show up. As someone stated earlier, what you do when you're alone and bored like that and figure no one sees you can be an awful lot like what you see Elisa doing.

Elisa could have been very vulnerable to any male attention given the idea that she has just come to the conclusion that any relationship with her crush is unlikely to come to fruition. In short, her judgement could have been clouded by flattery (at first meeting). I think this really is a horrible case of meeting the wrong person at a very wrong time.

 

[Peter Brendt]

But I wonder what sort of customers are they hoping to attract from such publicity? The murderous kind? Or maybe the really adventurous kind? I know after this, there is no way I'd ever want to check into that hotel. I mean, yikes... the water, for a start. And the vibes are just too negative from what I have read so far of it. Though the rooms look okay for a budget hotel/hostel. I might be okay staying in it when I was in my late teens, early 20s, travelling. I can imagine it will still appeal to backpacking youngsters travelling in groups, say, or pairs, who can look after each other and don't mind it's troubling history as long as it's cheap. But no way am I going there now even though I still go travelling a lot with my kids and we try to go for reasonably cheaper options to save some money!

That kind of tourism is pretty big in fact. In London, travel guides earn more money with Jack the Ripper than with the War Museum ...
On the other hand, I think, if someone would want to pull that stunt off, we would get something more gory.

 

[x_files]

I think there is plenty of light at night in LA to see well even on that roof.

One thing I'd like to know is if others heard the sound the man on the third floor heard. Like I said before, dumping the body on top of the tank from the top of the building would potentially cause a very loud reverberation throughout the pipes? No idea really.

edit: Yes this cult thing seems a bit weird. Really incredible how difficult it must be for investigators doing their work on hard to crack cases, there are often so many leads that seem to potentially make sense.

Where did people find that she was going to an organic farm? Judging from her blog and tumblr posts, she was definitely the kind of person that would be likely to end up in a cult (feeling lost in life, depressed, etc.). Going to an organic farm seems like a strange idea to me, unless she was really in LA to meet some of those people of that cult. A cult would also easily work in a team to kill her and hide the body more easily than a single person. The cult is involved in restaurants, fashion and jewellery design, things a girl like Elisa would be interested in (well, like pretty much any girl).

What is the name of the farm she wanted to work at?
I don't recall seeing the actual farm's name in print.
Veganism in itself is not a cult or even an organic farm, but yes, it could very well be a cult she was looking into.

 

[necco]

The search dogs didn't track her scent on the roof.

They didn't.

And yet, she was there.

 

[gitana1]

Snipped for context.


While it may be "statistically" and "overwhelmingly" so, that certainly does not mean there cannot be a break in statistics. Profiles are there to guide and enhance, but not looking out of that realm at this stage and this level is not sound judgement.


Not saying your wrong, but everyone should keep an open mind.


Edit: Look at the Karla Homolka case. Was a Canadian murder sensation in the 90s. She was involved in the murders and rapes of her sister and other victims by her husband.

Detectives use profiling and stats and the evidence. They don't go by what has happened once or twice among millions of cases, IMO.

The Rachel Barber case, here in Australia.

http://<a href=&quot;http://www.fac...www.fact.on.ca/news/news0011/th001130.htm</a>http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0011/th001130.htm

There have been only a few such cases in the world. Except for very rare instances in which women accompany their spouses or partners,
(like Homolka), women know their victim, usually intimately. There is one, ONE exception to that: Aileen Wournos.

The beauty of this forum is that we listen to each others theories. I haven't read any posts that "force" an explanation. There are some of us who watched her video, have a history of experience in the mental health field and believe we see some things that are associated with psychosis. As for myself, I in no way feel this in itself infers either suicide or homicide. People who are experiencing psychosis (Not saying I believe 100% that she was, are at a great risk of being the victim of crime. That being said:


"Almost 2 million Americans currently suffer from bipolar disorder. An estimated 3 percent to 20 percent of persons diagnosed with bipolar disorder die by suicide.
The death rate for untreated bipolar patients is higher than that of most types of heart disease and many types of cancer.
Studies of bipolar patients indicate that 25 percent to 50 percent of persons with this illness make at least one suicide attempt."


http://<a href=&quot;http://www.afs...ge_id=050CDCA2-C158-FBAC-16ACCE9DC8B7026C</a>http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?page_id=050CDCA2-C158-FBAC-16ACCE9DC8B7026C


I'm in the camp that believes that mental health issues should be treated as any other illness. I'm really tired of the stigma that still seems to be attached to mental illness. However, I also believe that by not remaining open and honest about the fact that some people who suffer from mental illness do commit suicide, we are downplaying the seriousness of this disease.

I posted before I saw yours! Being a professional, of course, you said it way better than I!!!!

Okay, still catching up and by far not completely in this case, but I got a few first impressions. Please don't take that as complete profile and I consider it far from "stable". And all I say in the following is IMO (just to clam down the usual posts following that all I say is only IMO anyway). And be warned - even first impressions can be multi-parters:


6.) There was a lot about drugs and depression and mental disorder. Elisa Lam was diagnosed with MILD depression. Even if those were connected to an underlying bi-polar disorder (which as far as I can see was more rumor than actually confirmed), depressions that lead to suicides bring people to jump from roofs, slit their wrists, hang themselves or any other kind of straight forward suicide. Drown in a water tank would be a new one. So, IMO, the way she was found contradicts a suicide theory.Now, I read, her behavior in the elevator would indicate a psychotic break. But one of the most significant symptoms, nerve twitching was missing. That doesn't include a short term break caused by drugs (whether taken voluntarily or not), but it contradicts a psychotic break caused by an underlying long term mental condition. And schizophrenia? Well, if schizophrenia sets on, it would be admittedly age appropriate, but then that is all. I can't see her in the video looking over her shoulder and even when she hides in the rh-corner of the cabin, her body language appears rather relaxed to me, playful, not panicky. So, if any drugs were involved, it would be the kind, that makes rather a little incoherent, maybe undignified, loosing inhibitions. Does that sound rather like roofies than hardcore recreational drugs?

Snipped for space by me.

I thought your post to be very informative. I learned a lot! However, I disagree a bit with the part above. According to Elisa's tumblr, she was diagnosed with bi polar disorder, on several serious medications including mood stabilizers and an amphetamine and she experienced hypomania. That's far from MILD depression.

I think most of us who feel Elisa;'s death may be related to a mental issue do not believe she intentionally killed herself. Instead, it seems possible that she became psychotic and paranoid and was responding to internal stimuli. That internal stimuli could have told her to find a safe place to hide.

According to reddit posts, Elisa had disappeared before and has experienced "episodes" and many close to her suspected schizophrenia.

Where did you find that she was diagnosed with only mild depression?

I am sorry if I have failed to make my general point. I'll stop trying so we don't bug everyone else to death.

I got your point, tapu.

From Peter Brendt "Now, I read, her behavior in the elevator would indicate a psychotic break. But one of the most significant symptoms, nerve twitching was missing"

This is not a significant symptom. When I'm assessing someone this isn't something that would draw my attention to one diagnosis or another. It can however be a side effect of medication.


Your comments regarding the drowning and physics are spot on.

Thanks for the info.

I would say that the message by the tank is typical "tagging"--graffiti marking that shows up all over L.A. and in that distinctive style. It's almost a font--certainly there are real fonts based on it. It's a learned way of writing, very stylized. I would be gobsmacked to find out a 21-y-o Asian-Canadian girl would be able to tag that, and I venture to say that the content isn't likely hers either.


The graffiti may be irrelevant, or the perp may have deposited it. The former seems most likely to me but I keep an open mind.

I have to disagree. No way is that close to typical tagging.

Does it look like her writing? I don;t know. I wondered early on. If the writing on the roof is all in caps, perhaps. I don;t know what her uppercase A's look like.

 

[fred&edna]

They didn't.

And yet, she was there.

But, not when she was alive. These weren't cadaver dogs.

So, she was not alive doing anything (not hiding, hanging with new/old friends, not being suicidal) on the roof.

 

[medsleuth]

Is there any way to tell the date of that post where she is rejected? Tumblr drives me nuts.

Because the new Crush came up again, heres something that I think tells us, that the new crush can definitly be ruled out: http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/40901960749/he-said-nothing-i-was-rejected-im-going-to

 

[LittleWing]

Ligature strangulation would have shown in a regular autopsy because most likely the hyoid bone would break. Not so good chances for manual strangulation, even there is a good chance, that the impressions of the fingers remain even after weeks in the water (it takes some serious pressure to manually strangle someone). The nasty thing is asphyxiation with a pillow because the only evidence would be micro-fiber from that pillow in the bronchial system. And that takes some time in a lab because they have to do a lot of microscope work to find the fiber and then soem to compare it to textile samples.

I seem to recall that something happens to the blood vessels in the eyes when a person is strangulated....petechial hemorrhage I think?? Maybe not all the time though so not sure.


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[Robert White]

Detectives use profiling and stats and the evidence. They don't go by what has happened once or twice among millions of cases, IMO.

At the end of the day, we have our opinions. You are an attorney (?) and I work in the intsec field. We are going to have our differences on this because our professional training and experiences. There is no wrong or right, but I implore everyone to keep an open mind.

Profiling goes far past that as well. We use it in our line of work.

 

[cluciano63]

Somehow, I feel that her meds and/or diagnoses come into play. Either by not taking them, taking too many, mixing them, or someone taking advantage of her state when one of the above happened. It seems to unlikely to me that she posted those drugs on her tumblr, some of which are quite serious meds, and that they have nothing to do with her death.

 

[skyfitsheaven]

Elisa's sister mentioned her going to work at a farm in Santa Cruz. Without access to her FB, it's hard to tell. She may have said that but it could have just been a hypomanic "flight of ideas." She could have been thinking about it since clearly she wasn't interested in school at the moment.

She did mention wanting to go to San Luis Obispo, which I found interesting. I can see a tourist going to the big cities in CA, but not to SLO which is a smaller, coastal university town. Why did she want to go there?

I'm happy the Chinese media is picking this story up. It's upsetting they're chalking this up to "drugs" or "psychosis." Even if it WAS an accident and she fell into the water tank, her family deserves to know.

 

[medsleuth]

Thanks Davia. The fire escape route is very informative. As she exits the elevator to the left she could have gone to the stairs or continued on to the fire escape and on up to the roof. At the moment I am thinking the rejection of the crush triggered a depressed episode in her bi-polar condition. She literally crawled in a hole and died.

 

[Peace777]

Chinese writing &#38750;&#27861;&#32147;&#29151; (speakeasy) means Illegal business in English :what: Google translate is awesome Strange to say the least another hmmm find

 

[LittleWing]

Again, I'm not dismissing such a thing based on what we think she would do. I for one am suggesting that it is perhaps more effective to look at evidence and see where it leads. In this case, I can't even see where considering auto-asphyxiation could lead us anywhere at all--what would that advance anything?

It's like this: I'm not going to suggest a dingo put her in that tank until I hear it reported--at least--that dingo hair was found on the roof.

I get both your points.

The truth is, the reports say no obvious COD was found from the autopsy. So we're thinking maybe suffocation, which is harder to determine by looking at the physical body.

It's not like he was suggesting a dingo or elephant or meerkat suffocated her...looking at the possibility that she was suffocated, then it's logical to try to think of all of the ways a person can be suffocated, whether by accident or intentional. Sure it's far fetched but we can't rule it out completely. Like the dingo. I think we can rule out the dingo. Lol. Or caaaaan we......?


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[necco]

But, not when she was alive. These weren't cadaver dogs.

So, she was not alive doing anything (not hiding, hanging with new/old friends, not being suicidal) on the roof.

So, the dogs did not DETECT her doing anything on the roof. Unless she was taken up there DAYS after she died or was hermetically sealed, they missed her scent somehow.

 

[skyfitsheaven]

Elisa mentions in her blog that when she is very depressed, she sleeps for a long time. When you are depressed, you can barely move, much less climb a fire escape to get into a water tank.

Spending money, being very outgoing and social as reported by the hostel owner in Toronto, going out to speakeasy in San Diego, and the way she acted in the video seems to indicate she was hypomanic, not depressed. Depressed people do not plan vacations to multiple locations.

I still think she met up with someone who was also staying at the hotel, someone who knew the property well, and that person knows what happened to her.

 

[ceefry23]

I understand that floors 1 through 4 are re-modeled for short term stays and the floors above are the old Cecil. And someone had spoken of the lower and upper floors being locked from each other after a certain hour. Anyone know more on that?

That can't be right because of the statement given by the gentleman on the third floor stating he's lived there for 29 years. I did read that floors 4-6 were of the "stay hotel"

 

[cluciano63]

Elisa mentions in her blog that when she is very depressed, she sleeps for a long time. When you are depressed, you can barely move, much less climb a fire escape to get into a water tank.

Spending money, being very outgoing and social as reported by the hostel owner in Toronto, going out to speakeasy in San Diego, and the way she acted in the video seems to indicate she was hypomanic, not depressed. Depressed people do not plan vacations to multiple locations.

I still think she met up with someone who was also staying at the hotel, someone who knew the property well, and that person knows what happened to her.

What if she was in a manic phases?